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Re: WebAIM Discussion List Digest 22.10.2004.

for

From: Pearson, Elaine
Date: Oct 22, 2004 5:51PM








WebAIM Discussion List Digest 22.10.2004.




Stephanie

This is very useful, can you explain more about how to modify
the code so that the link title attribute can be populate with the title of the
article?
Thanks
Elaine
<FONT
size=2>Stephanie,&amp;amp;nbsp;Onesite I provided some advice on
recently that was being dynamically generated wasable to utilise the link
title attribute to add some useful information. Theywere able to modify the
code so that, while the link text was still "Read more....", it had an
associated title that they could auto-populate with the
articletitle.&amp;amp;nbsp;Don'tknow if this is an option for you -
may be worth a try.&amp;amp;nbsp;Andrew -----Original
Message-----From: design [<A
href="mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> "><FONT
size=2>mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ]Sent: Wednesday, 20
October 2004 8:41 AMTo: WebAIM Discussion ListSubject: [WebAIM] More
on this story... (Was: HTML heading styles)On 10/19/04 3:05 PM,
"mmoore" simply typed the following: We can do
the same with a link to the remainder of the article on a
web site "More on Accessibility" instead of "More on this
story" &amp;amp;nbsp;This approach has two advantages to
someone using a link list for navigation. &amp;amp;nbsp;First it
tells them what to expect when they activate the link,
second it tells them that there is something important
prior to this link that they may want to read first.
&amp;amp;nbsp;I like your idea for a static site... But for a dynamic one,
this is not always possible. And I agree that it's problematic and
shouldn't be done. I've dealt with this on a couple sites I subbed for
and did the HTML/CSS coding only. I didn't have enough control over
the final product to affect the outcome (and thus, all the links say
"Read more..."), however, I'm not really sure what could have been
done differently either.The "Read more..." portion received its link
(a href) dynamically and each is a news story.I have a static site
under my control presently where I'm able to change all the "Click
here" notes the copywriter made into more descriptive links. I've even
been able to educate her on why "Click here" isn't a good idea.
LOLStephanie SullivanCommunity MX Partner :: <A
href="http://www.communitymx.com/author.cfm?cid=1008Team"><FONT
size=2>http://www.communitymx.com/author.cfm?cid=1008Team<;FONT
size=2> Macromedia for Dreamweaver :: <A
href="http://tinyurl.com/6huw3Co-Author"><FONT
size=2>http://tinyurl.com/6huw3Co-Author ..:
"Macromedia Dreamweaver MX 2004 Magic" :. New RidersYou may have a
fresh start any moment you choose, for this thing we call failure is not
the falling down, but the staying down. -
MaryPickford------------------------------------------------------------------------From:
<EMAIL REMOVED> ect: Re: More on this story... (Was: HTML heading
styles)Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 06:46:53 -0600More on this
story... (Was: HTML heading styles)Cheryl,Have you seen
Trenton Moss' recent article on effective links?May help your arguments
regarding "click here to ...".See<A
href="http://www.e-consultancy.com/forum/101703-writing-effective-link-text.html"><FONT
size=2>http://www.e-consultancy.com/forum/101703-writing-effective-link-text.html<;FONT
size=2>.Andrew -----Original Message-----From:
cdwise [<FONT
size=2>mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ]Sent: Wednesday, 20
October 2004 8:58 AMTo: WebAIM Discussion ListSubject: Re: [WebAIM]
More on this story... (Was: HTML heading styles) I have a
client that insists on "click here" in almost every link because as
she puts it "you don't know how many people out there just don't
realize something is a link unless it says so". At least she is open
to more than click here being in the link as in "click here for more
information on xyz". &amp;amp;nbsp; Cheryl D. WiseCertified
Professional Web
DeveloperMS-MVP-FrontPagewww.wiserways.commailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> 713.353.0139
Office &amp;amp;nbsp;
From:Stephanie Sullivan&amp;amp;nbsp;I have a static site under
my control presently where I&amp;amp;#8217;m able to change all the
&amp;amp;#8220;Click here&amp;amp;#8221; notes the copywriter made into more
descriptive links. I&amp;amp;#8217;ve even been able to educate her on why
&amp;amp;#8220;Click here&amp;amp;#8221; isn&amp;amp;#8217;t a good
idea.LOL------------------------------------------------------------------------From:
<EMAIL REMOVED> ect: Re: More on this story... (Was: HTML
heading styles)Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 06:53:04 -0600More
on this story... (Was: HTML heading styles)Theunfortunate
thing about the title attribute is that JAWS users don't necessarily"see" it
because the standard verbosity setting in JAWS does not read titleattribute
text.&amp;amp;nbsp;Jules-----------------------------------------------Julian
Rickards A/Digital Publications DistributionCoordinator Publication
ServicesSection, Ministry of NorthernDevelopment and Mines,
Vox:705-670-5608 / Fax: 705-670-5960 -----Original
Message-----From: andrew.arch85 [<A
href="mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> "><FONT
size=2>mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ]Sent: Thursday,
October 21, 2004 7:54 AMTo: WebAIM Discussion ListSubject: Re:
[WebAIM] More on this story... (Was: HTML heading styles)
Stephanie, &amp;amp;nbsp; One site I provided some
advice on recently that was being dynamically generated was able to
utilise the link title attribute to add some useful information. They
were able to modify the code so that, while the link text was still
"Read more ...", it had an associated title that they could
auto-populate with the article title. &amp;amp;nbsp;
Don't know if this is an option for you - may be worth a
try. &amp;amp;nbsp; Andrew
-----Original Message-----From: design [<A
href="mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> "><FONT
size=2>mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ]Sent: Wednesday, 20
October 2004 8:41 AMTo: WebAIM Discussion ListSubject:
[WebAIM] More on this story... (Was: HTML heading
styles)On 10/19/04 3:05 PM, "mmoore" simply typed the
following: We can do the
same with a link to the remainder of the article on a web site "More
on Accessibility" instead of "More on this
story" &amp;amp;nbsp;This approach has two
advantages to someone using a link list for navigation. &amp;amp;nbsp;First
it tells them what to expect when they
activate the link, second it tells them that
there is something important prior to this link that they
may want to read first. &amp;amp;nbsp;I like your
idea for a static site... But for a dynamic one, this is
not always possible. And I agree that it's problematic and
shouldn't be done. I've dealt with this on a couple sites
I subbed for and did the HTML/CSS coding only. I didn't have
enough control over the final product to affect the
outcome (and thus, all the links say "Read more..."),
however, I'm not really sure what could have been done
differently either.The "Read more..." portion received its
link (a href) dynamically and each is a news story.I have
a static site under my control presently where I'm able to
change all the "Click here" notes the copywriter made into
more descriptive links. I've even been able to educate her
on why "Click here" isn't a good idea. LOLStephanie
SullivanCommunity MX Partner :: <A
href="http://www.communitymx.com/author.cfm?cid=1008Team"><FONT
size=2>http://www.communitymx.com/author.cfm?cid=1008Team<;FONT
size=2> Macromedia for Dreamweaver :: <A
href="http://tinyurl.com/6huw3Co-Author"><FONT
size=2>http://tinyurl.com/6huw3Co-Author
..: "Macromedia Dreamweaver MX 2004 Magic" :. New RidersYou
may have a fresh start any moment you choose, for this
thing we call failure is not the falling down, but the
staying down. -
MaryPickford------------------------------------------------------------------------From:
<EMAIL REMOVED> ect: Re: Pricing of Screen ReadersDate: Thu, 21
Oct 2004 07:24:00 -0600Thursday, October 21, 2004, 10:30:11 AM, lists38
wrote:>; Is it just me or is that making money by>; having a
clientele that has no choice?I expect that they'd say there is a limited
market for the software,but I share your suspicions. Even if I had the
budget, I'd not buyit on principle. Even the demo costs
money.-- Iain------------------------------------------------------------------------From:
<EMAIL REMOVED> ect: WebAIM List Commands, Formatting of Digest
Version, and Coding of Online Archive VersionDate: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 07:45:26
-0600Some list maintenance questions and some thoughts for future
possiblechanges to the way the list is stored and sent.First, my
question.I'd like to switch from receiving the Digest version to
receiving theregular version. The information on the WebAIM site
doesn't quite explainhow to do this. I assume that I send a new
message with the SUBSCRIBEcommand, but this time don't include the DIGEST
command. If that's correct,then it would be useful to include that
info on the subscribe page: it seemsa bit counterintuitive to me to have to
"subscribe" a second time in orderto change one of my subscription
options. I'm on a good number of othermailing lists, most of them run
using Listserv software, and I find theWebAIM list a bit awkward since I
don't have access to some of the usercontrols that I'm used to. For
instance, I know that after I start gettingthe normal mailings, I will want
to be able to turn off my messagestemporarily when I go away on vacation or
something, but I'm not sure that Iwill be able to do that.Next,
a couple notes about the different methods of delivery.What I would
actually prefer is to read the WebAIM list online only, and notbe subscribed
to the list at all. Unfortunately, I find the onlineDiscussion Archive
very difficult to read. This is not due to adaptivetechnology issues,
but simply due to the way the email texts are stored inthe online verison:
many postings appear with raw HTML or with portions ofraw HTML. Also,
it appears that the sort by thread function doesn't quitework correctly --
many messages appear to be mis-sorted. As a result, Ijust don't find
it a good way to browse through the list messages.I've been using the
Digest version, but am getting frustrated with it, too,since many replies
include copies of previous emails, meaning I have toscroll through multiple
copies of the same message repeated in eachsubsequent reply. This is
normal for most Digest versions of lists, Isuppose, but at this point I'm
finding the single day archive too long toscroll through easily this
way.I wonder if there has been any thought about using a standard,
off-the-shelfmailing list or bulletin board software package for
distributing and storingmessages for the WebAIM Forum. Maybe you are
using one now, I'm not sure.My impression is that some of these other
software packages would be asaccessible as the system that the WebAIM
list is currently using, and thesewould have the added advantage of being
already familiar to some users whobelong to a range of other mailing lists
or bulletin boards.Lastly, some positive feedback so you know that
I'm not at all grouchy aboutthe list ;-)I'm finding that this list
has become increasingly interesting for me overthe past 3-4 months, and part
of the reason I am commenting now on theselist maintenance items is that I
think this list is worth reading and worthmaking easier to read.
Congrats to WebAIM and to the many contributors whohave been contributing to
make this list as useful as it is becoming.Thanks for taking a
moment to think about these list maintenance
issues.Phil.*****************************************************Philip
KiffNetworking &amp;amp; Information ConsultantNew Brunswick Easter Seal
March of Dimes65 Brunswick StreetFredericton, NB E3B 1G5Phone:
(416) 760-7343Fax: (416) 760-8324Email:
<EMAIL REMOVED> :
www.nbeastersealmarchofdimes.ca*****************************************************An
integral part of the Canadian Health Network (CHN)Living with Disabilities
AffiliateWWW :
www.canadian-health-network.ca*****************************************************Visit
CHN Newslink, our periodic e-bulletin:WWW :
www.nbeastersealmarchofdimes.ca/chn/newslink/*****************************************************------------------------------------------------------------------------From:
<EMAIL REMOVED> ect: Re: WebAIM List Commands, Formatting
of Digest Version, and Coding of Online
Archive VersionDate: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 08:08:58
-0600<;snip>;I've been using the Digest version, but am getting
frustrated with it, too,since many replies include copies of previous
emails, meaning I have toscroll through multiple copies of the same message
repeated in eachsubsequent reply.<;/snip>;(Taking a bit of
your advice)Although this doesn't resolve some of the other issues, I
will make more ofan effort to quote only content that I am responding
to.Jules-----------------------------------------------Julian
RickardsA/Digital Publications Distribution CoordinatorPublication
Services Section,Ministry of Northern Development and Mines,Vox:
705-670-5608 / Fax:
705-670-5960------------------------------------------------------------------------From:
<EMAIL REMOVED> ject: Re: More on this story... (Was: HTML
heading styles)Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 08:22:07 -0600More on this
story... (Was: HTML heading styles)Hi All,Another
tip, related to the front loading techniquesuggested&amp;amp;nbsp; for writing
linked text:Screen readers users can use&amp;amp;nbsp; first letter navigation
toget to a link quickly in a list of links. A bunch of links called
"Clickhere"&amp;amp;nbsp; slows down the process of getting to say the Contact
Uslink.Also prefixing links with&amp;amp;nbsp; the org's name or&amp;amp;nbsp;
thelike makes first letter navigation inefficient. If links are being
prefixedwith&amp;amp;nbsp;a set of words, perhaps there is a case for grouping
links with theprefix as a header.Sailesh PanchangSenior Accessibility
EngineerDeque Systems,11180&amp;amp;nbsp; Sunrise Valley Drive, 4th Floor,
Reston VA20191Tel: 703-225-0380 Extension 105 E-mail:
<EMAIL REMOVED> :703-225-0387* Look up &amp;amp;lt;<A
href="http://www.deque.com>;"><FONT
size=2>http://www.deque.com>;;
*&amp;amp;nbsp;&amp;amp;nbsp;&amp;amp;nbsp;Andrew writes:Have you seen
Trenton Moss' recent article on effective links?May help your arguments
regarding "click here to ...". See <A
href="http://www.e-consultancy.com/forum/101703-writing-effective-link-text.html"><FONT
size=2>http://www.e-consultancy.com/forum/101703-writing-effective-link-text.html<;FONT
size=2>. Andrew -----Original
Message-----From: cdwise [<A
href="mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> "><FONT
size=2>mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ]Sent: Wednesday, 20
October 2004 8:58 AMTo: WebAIM Discussion ListSubject: Re:
[WebAIM] More on this story... (Was: HTML heading
styles) I have a client that insists on "click here" in
almost every link because as she puts it "you don't know
how many people out there just don't realize something is
a link unless it says so". At least she is open to more
than click here being in the link as in "click here for
more information on xyz".
&amp;amp;nbsp; Cheryl D. WiseCertified Professional
Web
DeveloperMS-MVP-FrontPagewww.wiserways.commailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> 713.353.0139
Office
&amp;amp;nbsp;
From:Stephanie Sullivan&amp;amp;nbsp;I have a static site
under my control presently where I&amp;#8217;m able to change all
the &amp;#8220;Click here&amp;#8221; notes the copywriter made into more
descriptive links. I&amp;#8217;ve even been able to educate her on
why &amp;#8220;Click here&amp;#8221; isn&amp;#8217;t a good
idea.LOL------------------------------------------------------------------------From:
<EMAIL REMOVED> ect: Re: WebAIM List Commands,
Formatting of Digest Version, and Coding of
Online Archive VersionDate: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 09:40:26 -0600>; What
I would actually prefer is to read the WebAIM list online only,>; and not
be subscribed to the list at all.This is a mailing list, which is quite
a bit different than an onlineforum/discussion board. They're really too
separate beasts.>; I've been using the Digest version, but am getting
frustrated with it,too,>; since many replies include copies of
previous emails, meaning I have to>; scroll through multiple copies of the
same message repeated in each>; subsequent reply.This is due to
poor netiquette moreso than the technology. When replying toa message in a
mailing list, people should trim their replies, so only theportion of the
previous message they are commented is included.Additionally, top-posting is
usually frowned upon (where you post your replyon TOP of the message you are
replying too).Whether this list wants to enforce these types of
practices isn't my call,but if anyone is interested, this list has an
excellent summary of how tobest format messages when participating in a
mailing list:<FONT
size=2>http://webdesign-l.com/policies/And, of
course, since this list is about accessibility, we probably allshould learn
how to make email messages a bit more accessible. ;o)Also, related to
this, I can not subscribe to this list on my own. Hasanyone else had that
problem? I'm wondering if it has to do with us havingto use Outlook here and
outlook breaking the confirmation email
response.-Darrel------------------------------------------------------------------------From:
<EMAIL REMOVED> ect: Re: Pricing of Screen
ReadersDate: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 09:43:39 -0600>; Is it just me or is
that>; making money by having a clientele that has no choice? Is there
a>; cheaper way to get Jaws (no, not the demo, I know that)?No.
They seem pretty arrogant as a company. But, really, no more arrogantthat a
lot of software vendors that have a mini-monopoly. They're ripe for
acompetitor to come in and undercut their pricing completely. Where
arethings at in the Screen Reader market? Is IBM's product much of
acompetitor?-Darrel------------------------------------------------------------------------From:
<EMAIL REMOVED> ject: Re: Pricing of Screen ReadersDate: Thu, 21
Oct 2004 10:32:48 -0600"I wanted to lease with our Testing department
and buy some screen readersand got a mild shocklooking at the prices of
Jaws. Is it just me or is that making money byhaving a clientele that has no
choice?"Chris:Welcome to the world of assistive technology
users. It is amazing how muchA.T. users spend in getting technologies
just to function in a work orschool environment. As we all no almost
all software have educationaldiscount, but when it comes to A.T. software
that is not even an option. Iam sure their reason is that there is not
enough users out there to usetheir products. But with prices like this
no average person can affordassistive technology with out getting a
grant or some sort of funding. Ifyou ask me it is just high way
robbery. Like you said " it is making moneyby having a clientele that
has no choice"For example : I bought a Braille note about 2 years ago,
which cost $ 5300.I have been having problems with it for a long time.
Now they say it is thechip set and they have introduced a new chip set and
it will cost me $ 1200to change my existing chip set. That is $ 6500
for a device which does nothave even quarter the power in functionality of a
laptop.It is definitely frustrating and we, A.T. users just don't have a
choice butspend the money in order to be able to compete with our
peers.Regards.Sachin**************************************************************"You
must become the change you wish to see in the world." - Mahatma
Gandhi Sachin Dev
Pavithran Training and Development
Specialist Center for Persons with
Disabilities Utah State
University 6800 Old Main Hill, Logan, Ut - 84322,
U.S.A. Work Phone : 1-(435)-797
0974 Email :
<EMAIL REMOVED> Visit Us at <A
href="http://www.cpd.usu.edu"><FONT
size=2>http://www.cpd.usu.edu<;FONT
size=2>******************************************************------------------------------------------------------------------------From:
<EMAIL REMOVED> ject: Re: Pricing of Screen ReadersDate:
Thu, 21 Oct 2004 10:48:59 -0600What about GW Micro's Window
Eyes?Sincerely,Mike Burks-----Original
Message-----From: sachin [<FONT
size=2>mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ]Sent: Thursday,
October 21, 2004 12:29 PMTo: WebAIM Discussion ListSubject: Re: [WebAIM]
Pricing of Screen Readers"I wanted to lease with our Testing
department and buy some screen readersand got a mild shocklooking at the
prices of Jaws. Is it just me or is that making money byhaving a clientele
that has no choice?"Chris:Welcome to the world of assistive
technology users. It is amazing how muchA.T. users spend in getting
technologies just to function in a work orschool environment. As we
all no almost all software have educationaldiscount, but when it comes to
A.T. software that is not even an option. Iam sure their reason is
that there is not enough users out there to usetheir products. But
with prices like this no average person can affordassistive technology
with out getting a grant or some sort of funding. Ifyou ask me it is
just high way robbery. Like you said " it is making moneyby having a
clientele that has no choice"For example : I bought a Braille note about
2 years ago, which cost $ 5300.I have been having problems with it for a
long time. Now they say it is thechip set and they have introduced a
new chip set and it will cost me $ 1200to change my existing chip set.
That is $ 6500 for a device which does nothave even quarter the power in
functionality of a laptop.It is definitely frustrating and we, A.T.
users just don't have a choice butspend the money in order to be able
to compete with our
peers.Regards.Sachin**************************************************************"You
must become the change you wish to see in the world." - Mahatma
Gandhi Sachin Dev
Pavithran Training and Development
Specialist Center for Persons with
Disabilities Utah State
University 6800 Old Main Hill, Logan, Ut - 84322,
U.S.A. Work Phone : 1-(435)-797
0974 Email :
<EMAIL REMOVED> Visit Us at <A
href="http://www.cpd.usu.edu"><FONT
size=2>http://www.cpd.usu.edu<;FONT
size=2>******************************************************----To
subscribe or unsubscribe, visit <A
href="http://www.webaim.org/discussion/"><FONT
size=2>http://www.webaim.org/discussion/<;FONT
size=2>------------------------------------------------------------------------From:
<EMAIL REMOVED> ject: Re: WebAIM List Commands, Formatting of Digest
Version, and Coding of Online Archive VersionDate: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 11:46:06
-0600>; I'd like to switch from receiving the Digest version to
receiving the>; regular version. The information on the WebAIM site
doesn't quite explain>; how to do this. I assume that I send a new
message with the SUBSCRIBE>; command, but this time don't include the
DIGEST command.This is correct. If you send an UNSUBSCRIBE message, you
will beremoved from whichever version of the list you are subscribed to.
Ihave added instructions to the discussion page on switching
betweenversions.>; I will want to be able to turn off my
messages>; temporarily when I go away on vacation or something.We
are looking at implementing this functionality.>; What I would
actually prefer is to read the WebAIM list online only, and not>; be
subscribed to the list at all.We do have the archives at <A
href="http://webaim.org/discussion/archives"><FONT
size=2>http://webaim.org/discussion/archivesAs was
pointed out, the archives do not always work perfectly.Archiving threaded
e-mail messages to the Web is quite a complexprocess. Some messages are
HTML, some messages contain HTML, and mostmessages are plain text.
Converting the messages into a pseudo-usableformat while maintaining a
threaded list structure is difficult. Muchof this involves manual work on
the backend for individual messages toget them to work.>; I wonder
if there has been any thought about using a standard, off-the-shelf>;
mailing list or bulletin board software package for distributing and
storing>; messages for the WebAIM Forum.We are looking into a new
software application that will perhaps domuch of this work automatically,
but are constrained by the factthat we do not want to lose or isolate the
several thousand messagesthat are currently in the archives. If any of you
have list softwarerecommendations, send them my way.On a related
note, I am currently working on developing an accessibleWeb-based forum
application. This will not replace or be used inconjunction with the e-mail
list, but will be a separate mechanism foraccessibility discussions. I hope
to solicit feedback on the softwarein the next week or so and will do so
through this list.>; I've been using the Digest version, but am
getting frustrated with it, too,>; since many replies include copies of
previous emails, meaning I have to>; scroll through multiple copies of the
same message repeated in each>; subsequent reply.As has been
mentioned, please only quote relevant portions of thee-mail you are replying
to. Also, there has been an increased numberof "Out of the Office",
"Vacation Notifications", etc. to the list.Please do not set your e-mail
software to automatically reply tolists. Also, do not send messages to the
list requesting ReadingConfirmations. Our software filters many of these
messages fromreaching the list, though many slip through. Those who
violatethese rules will be unsubscribed from the list without
notice.>; I'm finding that this list has become increasingly
interesting for me over>; the past 3-4 months, and part of the reason I am
commenting now on these>; list maintenance items is that I think this list
is worth reading and worth>; making easier to read. Congrats to
WebAIM and to the many contributors who>; have been contributing to make
this list as useful as it is becoming.Thanks for the comments. We at
WebAIM have also been thrilled with therecent dialog and activity on the
list (nearly 200,000 e-mails sentout this month). We are continually looking
to improve this service andlook forward to releasing a Web-based discussion
forum in the nearfuture. Additional comments or recommendations can be sent
to meoff-list.Jared SmithWebAIM (Web Accessibility In
Mind)Center for Persons with DisabilitiesUtah State
University------------------------------------------------------------------------From:
<EMAIL REMOVED> ject: Re: WebAIM List Commands, Formatting of Digest
Version, and Coding of Online Archive
VersionDate: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 12:27:08 -0600I subscribed to the mail
list via Outlook so I don't think that is yourissue.Cheryl D.
WiseCertified Professional Web
DeveloperMS-MVP-FrontPagewww.wiserways.com<A
href="mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> "><FONT
size=2>mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> 713.353.0139
Office-----Original Message-----From: darrel.austinAlso,
related to this, I can not subscribe to this list on my own. Hasanyone else
had that problem? I'm wondering if it has to do with us havingto use Outlook
here and outlook breaking the confirmation email
response.------------------------------------------------------------------------From:
<EMAIL REMOVED> ect: Include default text?Date: Thu, 21 Oct
2004 13:52:59 -0600Web Content Accessibility Guidelines 1.0
Guideline 10.4 states:"Include default text in form controls"I
think I read in "Constructing Accessible Web Sites" that this is no
longerrequired for current technology. Is this definitely the
case?I am developing a site and no default text is the only reason its
notTriple-A compliant, which is what I would like. Is there anyway to
hidedefault text so only screen readers know its there?? Personally I
thinkdefault text would confused new/inexperienced users as they may know
how toget rid of it.Any
thoughts?Cheers,Glenda---Outgoing mail is certified
Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (<A
href="http://www.grisoft.com"><FONT
size=2>http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.781 /
Virus Database: 527 - Release Date:
10/21/04------------------------------------------------------------------------From:
<EMAIL REMOVED> ject: Re: Include default text?Date: Thu, 21 Oct
2004 14:06:55 -0600>; I am developing a site and no default text is
the only reason its not>; Triple-A compliant, which is what I would
like.I believe you are referring to WCAG checkpoint 10.4 - "Until
useragents handle empty controls correctly, include
default,place-holding characters in edit boxes and text areas."The
key is the "Until user agents handle empty controls correctly"Virtually all
user agents expose empty form controls to the end user.So, in my opinion,
this checkpoint can be ignored.Jared SmithWebAIM (Web Accessibility
In Mind)Center for Persons with DisabilitiesUtah State
University------------------------------------------------------------------------From:
<EMAIL REMOVED> ect: Re: Include default text?Date: Thu, 21 Oct
2004 14:19:29 -0600Thanks!So, can I legitimately use Bobby's AAA
icon even though I get that
oneerror??Cheers,Glenda-----Original
Message-----From: Jared Smith [<A
href="mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> "><FONT
size=2>mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ]Sent: Thursday,
October 21, 2004 1:04 PMTo: "WebAIM Discussion List"
<; <EMAIL REMOVED> >;Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Include default
text?>; I am developing a site and no default text is the only
reason its not>; Triple-A compliant, which is what I would like.I
believe you are referring to WCAG checkpoint 10.4 - "Until useragents handle
empty controls correctly, include default,place-holding characters in edit
boxes and text areas."The key is the "Until user agents handle empty
controls correctly"Virtually all user agents expose empty form controls to
the end user.So, in my opinion, this checkpoint can be ignored.Jared
SmithWebAIM (Web Accessibility In Mind)Center for Persons with
DisabilitiesUtah State University----To subscribe or
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10/21/04------------------------------------------------------------------------From:
<EMAIL REMOVED> ject: Re[2]: Include default text?Date: Thu, 21 Oct
2004 14:35:17 -0600>; So, can I legitimately use Bobby's AAA icon even
though I get that one>; error??Personally, if you have met all of
the WCAG priorities, then you areWCAG compliant. As far as Bobby's icon - it
really doesn't meananything except that Bobby was able to evaluate a FEW of
the WCAGpriorities and found no obvious errors. Nearly all of the
prioritiescannot be verified with ANY automated validator. For this reason,
theBobby icon has become a bit of misnomer with accessibility. The
Bobbysite states that you must also perform the manual checks it
listsbefore posting the icon.For example, a study I heard of found
that around 80% (if I recallcorrectly) of US Government Web sites that
display the Bobby icon don'teven pass Bobby 508. There's a real danger in
assuming that passingBobby (or validator X) means that you are accessible,
when in factBobby or any other validation program can only check a FEW of
thenecessary checkpoints. I think Bobby checks 4 of the 16 Section
508Checkpoints, and of those, a human check is still necessary to
ensureaccessibility. Bobby can check that alt text is present and will
saythat your page is accessible if you have alt text, but it can't
checkto ensure that the text is equivalent and appropriate, as is
requiredby the accessibility standards. The posting of the Bobby (or
whatever)icon tends to reinforce the false idea that Bobby compliance
=standards compliance = accessibility, which is often far from
true.Still, if you have done the manual checking, feel that you
arecompliant, and want to share this with your site visitors (most
ofwhom could probably care less), then go ahead and post the icon.
Youmight also look at the official W3C icons -<A
href="http://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG1-Conformance"><FONT
size=2>http://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG1-Conformance<;FONT
size=2>Jared SmithWebAIM (Web Accessibility In Mind)Center for Persons
with DisabilitiesUtah State
University------------------------------------------------------------------------From:
<EMAIL REMOVED> ect: Re: Re[2]: Include default text?Date: Thu,
21 Oct 2004 14:50:38 -0600Thanks JARED,I definitely don't rely
solely on Bobby to determine accessibility. I useseveral steps to
check the site. I'll look at the W3C icons too. This siteis on
free and inexpensive AT, so this audience may care a wee bit moreabout
validation - not sure though. I also thought it might increase
hitswith search engines.Cheers,Glenda-----Original
Message-----From: Jared Smith [<A
href="mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> "><FONT
size=2>mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ]Sent: Thursday,
October 21, 2004 1:32 PMTo: "WebAIM Discussion List"
<; <EMAIL REMOVED> >;Subject: [WebAIM] Re[2]: Include default
text?>; So, can I legitimately use Bobby's AAA icon even
though I get that one>; error??Personally, if you have met all of
the WCAG priorities, then you areWCAG compliant. As far as Bobby's icon - it
really doesn't meananything except that Bobby was able to evaluate a FEW of
the WCAGpriorities and found no obvious errors. Nearly all of the
prioritiescannot be verified with ANY automated validator. For this reason,
theBobby icon has become a bit of misnomer with accessibility. The
Bobbysite states that you must also perform the manual checks it
listsbefore posting the icon.For example, a study I heard of found
that around 80% (if I recallcorrectly) of US Government Web sites that
display the Bobby icon don'teven pass Bobby 508. There's a real danger in
assuming that passingBobby (or validator X) means that you are accessible,
when in factBobby or any other validation program can only check a FEW of
thenecessary checkpoints. I think Bobby checks 4 of the 16 Section
508Checkpoints, and of those, a human check is still necessary to
ensureaccessibility. Bobby can check that alt text is present and will
saythat your page is accessible if you have alt text, but it can't
checkto ensure that the text is equivalent and appropriate, as is
requiredby the accessibility standards. The posting of the Bobby (or
whatever)icon tends to reinforce the false idea that Bobby compliance
=standards compliance = accessibility, which is often far from
true.Still, if you have done the manual checking, feel that you
arecompliant, and want to share this with your site visitors (most
ofwhom could probably care less), then go ahead and post the icon.
Youmight also look at the official W3C icons -<A
href="http://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG1-Conformance"><FONT
size=2>http://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG1-Conformance<;FONT
size=2>Jared SmithWebAIM (Web Accessibility In Mind)Center for Persons
with DisabilitiesUtah State University----To subscribe or
unsubscribe, visit <FONT
size=2>http://www.webaim.org/discussion/<;FONT
size=2>---Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG
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10/21/04------------------------------------------------------------------------From:
<EMAIL REMOVED> ect: Re: Re[2]: Include default text?Date: Thu, 21
Oct 2004 15:35:19 -0600On Thu, 21 Oct 2004, glenda wrote:>; I
definitely don't rely solely on Bobby to determine accessibility.Bobby
should be ignored. Some experts who really know what it does and howwrong it
works in many ways might find it a useful tool, but I doubt that.>;
I'll look at the W3C icons too.Don't. Accessibility icons work against
accessibility. This becomesevident if you even once look at your page and
imagine that you are oneof the people to whom accessibility matters. What
could _they_ possiblybenefit from the icons? They are just distraction,
pointless enigmas anddisturbance.But you can look at the W3C WAI
guidelines and checklists, of course.Just remember that they are not
accessibility. They cover some aspects ofaccessibility, mostly in a right
way, but only partially.--Jukka "Yucca" Korpela, <A
href="http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/"><FONT
size=2>http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/<;FONT
size=2>------------------------------------------------------------------------From:
<EMAIL REMOVED> ect: Re: Include default text?Date: Thu, 21 Oct
2004 15:41:40 -0600On Thu, 21 Oct 2004, Jared Smith wrote:>;
The key is the "Until user agents handle empty controls correctly">;
Virtually all user agents expose empty form controls to the end user.>;
So, in my opinion, this checkpoint can be ignored.You put it too mildly.
It _should_ be ignored. You _must not_ put anydummy placeholder or
explanatory text into a text input field. Such textis worse than useless,
since it causes extra trouble (it needs to beremoved before typing actual
content, and then again a user might fail todo this and enter incorrect
data), it could be misunderstood as ameaningful default value (that's what
the initial content is for!), etc.Remember that accessibility is also about
being accessible to people whosecognitive and mental abilities are far more
limited than yours. Don'tcreate any extra puzzles or challenges for
them.(So was the WCAG 1.0 checkpoint wrong from the beginning? Yes. It
causedmore trouble than good. Some people actually applied it, and who's
goingto fix all those prefilled fields now?)--Jukka "Yucca"
Korpela, <FONT
size=2>http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/<;FONT
size=2>------------------------------------------------------------------------From:
<EMAIL REMOVED> ect: Re: Re[2]: Include default text?Date: Thu,
21 Oct 2004 15:46:37 -0600I can see your point about the accessibility
icons. But isn't it somewhatsimilar to establishments putting the
wheelchair sticker on the front door?As a wheelchair user, it indicates to
me that place MAY be morewheelchair-friendly than the place next
door.Glenda-----Original Message-----From: jkorpela
[<FONT
size=2>mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ]Sent: Thursday,
October 21, 2004 2:32 PMTo: WebAIM Discussion ListSubject: Re: [WebAIM]
Re[2]: Include default text?On Thu, 21 Oct 2004, glenda
wrote:>; I definitely don't rely solely on Bobby to determine
accessibility.Bobby should be ignored. Some experts who really know what
it does and howwrong it works in many ways might find it a useful tool, but
I doubt that.>; I'll look at the W3C icons too.Don't.
Accessibility icons work against accessibility. This becomesevident if you
even once look at your page and imagine that you are oneof the people to
whom accessibility matters. What could _they_ possiblybenefit from the
icons? They are just distraction, pointless enigmas
anddisturbance.But you can look at the W3C WAI guidelines and
checklists, of course.Just remember that they are not accessibility. They
cover some aspects ofaccessibility, mostly in a right way, but only
partially.--Jukka "Yucca" Korpela, <A
href="http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/"><FONT
size=2>http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/----To
subscribe or unsubscribe, visit <A
href="http://www.webaim.org/discussion/"><FONT
size=2>http://www.webaim.org/discussion/<;FONT
size=2>---Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG
anti-virus system (<FONT
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10/21/04------------------------------------------------------------------------From:
<EMAIL REMOVED> ect: Re: Include default text?Date: Thu,
21 Oct 2004 15:49:45 -0600If want to include default place
holders, you can use JavaScript to clear afield of its default text on
focus.Example:<;input type="text" size="3" value="default
text"onfocus="if(this.value=='default text'){this.value=''}"
/>;with regardsSteven FaulknerWeb Accessibility
ConsultantNational Information &amp;amp; Library Service (NILS)454
Glenferrie RoadKooyong Victoria 3144Phone: (613) 9864 9281Fax: (613)
9864 9210Email: <EMAIL REMOVED> onal Information
Library ServiceA subsidiary of RBS.RVIB.VAF Ltd.-----Original
Message-----From: glenda [<A
href="mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> "><FONT
size=2>mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ]Sent: Friday, 22
October 2004 5:55 AMTo: WebAIM Discussion ListSubject: [WebAIM] Include
default text?Web Content Accessibility Guidelines 1.0
Guideline 10.4 states:"Include default text in form controls"I
think I read in "Constructing Accessible Web Sites" that this is no
longerrequired for current technology. Is this definitely the
case?I am developing a site and no default text is the only reason its
notTriple-A compliant, which is what I would like. Is there anyway to
hidedefault text so only screen readers know its there?? Personally I
thinkdefault text would confused new/inexperienced users as they may know
how toget rid of it.Any
thoughts?Cheers,Glenda---Outgoing mail is certified
Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (<A
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Virus Database: 527 - Release Date: 10/21/04----To subscribe or
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size=2>http://www.webaim.org/discussion/<;FONT
size=2>------------------------------------------------------------------------From:
<EMAIL REMOVED> ect: Re: Re[2]: Include default text?Date:
Thu, 21 Oct 2004 15:55:57 -0600glenda <; <EMAIL REMOVED> >;
wrote:>; I can see your point about the accessibility icons. But
isn't it somewhat>; similar to establishments putting the wheelchair
sticker on the front door?>; As a wheelchair user, it indicates to me that
place MAY be more>; wheelchair-friendly than the place next
door.I'd say it's more like putting the wheelchair sticker inside
thewheelchair-accessible toilets....once you're able to get to the
WCAGstickers on the page (thinking more in terms of users with
screenreaders, who may not be able to see the badges at a glance without
firstinteracting with the site), you may already get a good idea whether
ornot a site has been constructed in an accessibility-friendly
way.If at all necessary, I wouldn't be adverse to finding such badges on
aseparate accessibility statement page, but not plastered on the
frontpage of a site (except for the "fizzy good feel nice" effect it
givesthe developers and/or site owners)IMHO, of
course...Patrick H.
Lauke_____________________________________________________re