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From: Terence de Giere
Date: Wed, Mar 06 2002 8:27PM
Subject: Re: Browser font sizes
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Mr. Wilson --

I do not have any statistics on font size changes by users. In some
usability testing in 2000 where I specifically asked the questions of a
number of disabled users working from home (whose vision was typically
normal) only one of 25 sighted subjects had set the font size on their
browser to a larger size to be able to read text. I have occasionally
observed others who enlarged the font size, not always because they
could not read a page with "normal" sizes, they just liked big fonts.

Another issue that affects font size is monitor resolution, or rather
the operating system setting for resolution in dots per inch (dpi) or
dots per centimeter. This affects the ratio of the size of images to
font size and hence to line length etc., in relation to images. Some
newer browsers, such as IE for the Mac, and Netscape 6 have settings to
adjust for this, providing greater cross platform consistency, but older
browsers do not. The Mac displays at 72 dots per inch, and most Windows
systems typically display at 96 dots per inch, and a small number of
users have Windows systems set at 120 dots per inch. Assuming that at
any resolution setting, a ruler in an application such as Microsoft Word
displays life size, as the resolution increases, more pixels are used to
create the font printing to the screen, but the images will become
proportionately smaller in relation to the font size. An image on a Mac
that is 5 centimeters wide on a Mac will display 3.75 centimeters wide
on a Windows machine at 96 dpi and 3 centimeters wide on a Windows
machine set to 120 dpi, assuming the effect is not adjusted for in one
of the newer browsers. Visually this effect is usually experienced as
the fonts getting larger if the same monitor size is used for
comparison. If one sets the system to a higher resolution, it would be
necessary to reduce the size of the image on the monitor to in order to
get the image to display, physically, at the correct dpi. Typically the
higher resolution settings for Windows would be used with a large
monitor. There are experimental monitors being developed that have
resolutions as high as 300 dpi.

Most users do not change browser defaults. As with setting font sizes
larger, the dpi resolutions settings probably do not have any useful
statistics, unless a company like Statmarket (very expensive) tabulates
that information. The only statistics on monitor resolution I have seen
is the pixel size of the screen, not the dpi figure. I have however
noticed that at least as many people have their machines set to 120 dpi
on Windows as have set the font sizes larger using browser settings.
This higher dpi can greatly affect the appearance of Web page on some
browsers, and can break apart many carefully crafted visual designs.

Older users are likely to need some enlargement of fonts due to
deteriorating vision. The font sizes on many Web pages today are too
small for such users. Whether they know how to enlarge the font is a
good question, since so many people do not know it can be done.

The variation of fonts sizes in browsers also appears to be greater when
relative sizing in Web pages is used. Especially the difference between
the newest graphical browsers and Netscape 4 browsers. This may be one
reason why many designers prefer to use absolute sizing, which is less
accessibility friendly than relative sizing.

Of course, users of special low vision browsers will probably see the
page with a completely different font and size than a designer would
expect. Any one interested in seeing how font substitution and resizing
can affect a visual design should look at their pages on WebTV, where
the WebTV system determines all fonts and mostly their display size.
Because of the low resolution of TV, the font sizes are increased quite
a bit for legibility, and only a sans serif font is used. Text on
graphics is often unreadable on WebTV.

Terence de Giere
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From: Nick Wilson
Date: Thu, Mar 07 2002 1:14AM
Subject: Re: Browser font sizes
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* and then Terence de Giere declared....
> I do not have any statistics on font size changes by users. In some

Shame, that's what I really need :-(

> Most users do not change browser defaults. As with setting font sizes

How do you know this? I think it a reasonable guess but it's a guess.

> Older users are likely to need some enlargement of fonts due to
> deteriorating vision. The font sizes on many Web pages today are too
> small for such users. Whether they know how to enlarge the font is a
> good question, since so many people do not know it can be done.

Again, very reasonable assumptions but where's the hard data?

Seems like this is a relatively unexplored area, everyone has some
pretty good idea that the number of people who know how to adjust their
browsers font sizes is small but no one seems to have gathered any data
on the subject. Well, perhaps it's something to discuss in Aprils
accessability training eh?
- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
www.explodingnet.com | Projects, Forums and
+ Articles for website owners
- -- Nick Wilson -- | and designers.

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From: Holly Marie
Date: Thu, Mar 07 2002 5:32AM
Subject: Re: Browser font sizes
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From: "Terence de Giere"

> Mr. Wilson --
>
> I do not have any statistics on font size changes by users. In some
> usability testing in 2000 where I specifically asked the questions of a
> number of disabled users working from home (whose vision was typically
> normal) only one of 25 sighted subjects had set the font size on their
> browser to a larger size to be able to read text. I have occasionally
> observed others who enlarged the font size, not always because they
> could not read a page with "normal" sizes, they just liked big fonts.

It would be interesting to see an actual real study conducted across a wider selected user group. I am not disagreeing with your thoughts here, and believe that many people do not know where or how to change their fonts sizes, but adressing just disabled users from home may also be a slanted group. We would also have to ask which browser AND version they are using, what OS and maybe Version, which monitor, what graphics card support, what size of Screen if used, what their settings are, etc.... This changes a lot of the variables. Because each one of those elements matter.

In any case, looking at the problem of font size changing, or lack theerof, whose issue is this now?

If a designer, develops and designs a page with relative font sizes*, I think their job is done. It is now the job of the user to figure out how to enlarge these fonts if they do not quite work. [*EMs may not have decent support in recent older IE versions.]

Look at the tools out there - Opera has the font adjustment or really whole page adjustment right out in view as default. Good usability design. Why aren't more visually challenged people using Opera? good question, what are most using? Another good question.

I would bet if you querried people using Opera about font size changing those numbers would dramatically increase. So now we have to say, NN and IE or whatever other browser out there are the ones that are failing.

Choosing a larger or very large font for one group, may cause a problem for another? And can we really come to a conclusion what normal sizes are? Set or leave a font at default, with CSS, for instance. This would be an understood 1EM the size the browser settings will display. If this is not good enough, whose fault is it now?




> Another issue that affects font size is monitor resolution, or rather
> the operating system setting for resolution in dots per inch (dpi) or
> dots per centimeter. This affects the ratio of the size of images to
> font size and hence to line length etc., in relation to images. Some
> newer browsers, such as IE for the Mac, and Netscape 6 have settings to
> adjust for this, providing greater cross platform consistency, but older
> browsers do not.

Again, how many people, know how to set the displays or font sizing displays. My guess would be that if anyone has a lot of difficulty with viewing items on their screen or on the Internet, it is their job to figure out how to reset these items.
It is unfortunate that the usability features and settings are buried so badly that many cannot find out how to access or change these. Again, this is not our territory, unless one wants to put an informative item on every web page to every user of each OS, browser, etc, on how to change your font or display sizes. I remember going into the college mm department and sitting at the computer each week, and the screen resolution for this 21 inch monitor was set to 1600x1200 - quite small, sometimes it was set to display text much smaller too. Then it became my need to figure out how to reset that monitor so I could work.

Regarding older browser stats- from www.echoecho.com today:
64% MSIE5
23% MSIE6
04% MSIE4
04% NS4
1% NS COMP.
<1% NS6
<1% OTHER

And question number two and three might be
[1] how many accessible focussed visitors use browsers other than IE
[2] how many accessible users use Mac or other OS than Windows *

*I know of several that do, but overall I believe that number may be small and the Win OS users on the Access side might be a larger sample than the general population, and this is a guess on my part, but since most accessibility software for web use seems to be geared to work with the Win OS, I would tend to agree with my hunch.

>The Mac displays at 72 dots per inch, and most Windows
> systems typically display at 96 dots per inch, and a small number of
> users have Windows systems set at 120 dots per inch.

And one is a true square pixel the other a rectangle.
There is no way we as designers are going to meet everyone's needs, it is not possible. So, default and relative sizing is the key, and then it is up to the user to adjust to the situation.

Screen resolutions as of today, from www.echoecho.com :

52% 800x600
34% 1024x768
04% 640x480
03% 1280x1024
02% 1152x864
<1% 1600x1200

> Older users are likely to need some enlargement of fonts due to
> deteriorating vision.

Again, these people out of need will have to figure out how their font size adjustment works on their own machines. The best we can do is default and work with our projects on average settings.

> The variation of fonts sizes in browsers also appears to be greater when
> relative sizing in Web pages is used. Especially the difference between
> the newest graphical browsers and Netscape 4 browsers. This may be one
> reason why many designers prefer to use absolute sizing, which is less
> accessibility friendly than relative sizing.

I am trying to remember which browsers will not adjust fonts, or which ones left out there will not adjust fonts. I would be guessing, but that issue might relate back to IE v 3, and maybe v4 does not support or display ems, correctly so percentage may be a better relative sizing for fonts.

> Of course, users of special low vision browsers will probably see the
> page with a completely different font and size than a designer would
> expect. Any one interested in seeing how font substitution and resizing
> can affect a visual design should look at their pages on WebTV, where
> the WebTV system determines all fonts and mostly their display size.
> Because of the low resolution of TV, the font sizes are increased quite
> a bit for legibility, and only a sans serif font is used. Text on
> graphics is often unreadable on WebTV.

Any numbers or stats on the amounts of people using WebTV, even those displays are not accurate across various TVs or systems? Also to make it even trickier, what sizes of TVs are displaying these pages, what are the resolutions? The colors are different as TVs do not see red the same way as a computer displays Red. So colors are another issue.
WebTV is the issue and the problem. Unfortunately it is a substandard delivery of a web page, and I think that situation and problem is on the lap of WebTV to either wait until it can display the items accurately or display in text only.

If a page is coded, and can render or deliver to a text only device or Lynx based browser, then perhaps WebTV is an issue. I wonder how many access interested users, log onto the web with WebTV, and if so, what types of equipment can they use, to do so?

all good questions, and my thoughts are to design pages according to guidelines and also suggestions by access/wai, then the rest is up to the end users, or even the makers of these browsers, and devices to come around to the right place, also. I am not wishing to redesign either my work or other's work as each individual case comes up - that their browser or their device or their TV is not displaying a page the way it should.

The best we can do is support the guidel

From: John Foliot - bytown internet
Date: Thu, Mar 07 2002 5:48AM
Subject: RE: Browser font sizes
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Veering off a little, you might want to check out the following Canadian
Government web site geared towads seniors:
http://www.seniors.gc.ca/scolPortSearchScreen.jsp?userLanguage=en&;displayCat
=ALL&font=0

As a general statement, many seniors experience problems with smaller text,
and so the developers used a .jsp routine to provide a means for their
audience to enlarge the font size via a server side script. My only regret
is the fact that they pass variables via the URL string and so the page is
not validating. None-the-less, I beleive they should get mention for
understanding and providing for the ability to enlarge the fonts.

As always JMHO

JF




> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nick Wilson [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
> Sent: March 7, 2002 3:14 AM
> To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Subject: Re: Browser font sizes
>
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
>
> * and then Terence de Giere declared....
> > I do not have any statistics on font size changes by users. In some
>
> Shame, that's what I really need :-(
>
> > Most users do not change browser defaults. As with setting font sizes
>
> How do you know this? I think it a reasonable guess but it's a guess.
>
> > Older users are likely to need some enlargement of fonts due to
> > deteriorating vision. The font sizes on many Web pages today are too
> > small for such users. Whether they know how to enlarge the font is a
> > good question, since so many people do not know it can be done.
>
> Again, very reasonable assumptions but where's the hard data?
>
> Seems like this is a relatively unexplored area, everyone has some
> pretty good idea that the number of people who know how to adjust their
> browsers font sizes is small but no one seems to have gathered any data
> on the subject. Well, perhaps it's something to discuss in Aprils
> accessability training eh?
> - --
> - -----------------------------------------------------------
> www.explodingnet.com | Projects, Forums and
> + Articles for website owners
> - -- Nick Wilson -- | and designers.
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux)
>
> iD8DBQE8hyFlHpvrrTa6L5oRApjZAJ9Kw8Es+mRKEVzPdnYHZWXUpulAlACeOqFh
> lWVSVoMvZbTYpdCly/uerS0> =1AGd
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>
> ----
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or view list archives,
> visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>
>


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