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Number of posts in this thread: 10 (In chronological order)

From: Kerryn Sues
Date: Mon, Feb 28 2011 6:36PM
Subject: Guessing ALT text for product images that are generated automatically
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Hello everyone and thanks in advance for your time and thoughts. We
have had many discussions on this here, but would love to get any
feedback.

On our site we have images that are automatically pulled on to the
page to illustrate a product. We don't know the actual content of
these images -- e.g., the product might be a Bali holiday, but the
picture may be a couple walking along a beach.

The closest we can get is to *guess* the content of the image by the
product title (e.g., ALT="Bali Holiday - 5 nights" or ALT="Bali") --
we can't get as specific as ALT="Couple walking along a beach".

So is it preferable to make a best guess at the content of the image,
or to leave it blank with ALT="" or ALT=" " (seeing as other text
content within the page describes the image).

Thanks again,
Kerryn

From: Jared Smith
Date: Mon, Feb 28 2011 8:00PM
Subject: Re: Guessing ALT text for product images that are generated automatically
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On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 6:32 PM, Kerryn Sues wrote:

> The closest we can get is to *guess* the content of the image by the
> product title (e.g., ALT="Bali Holiday - 5 nights" or ALT="Bali") --
> we can't get as specific as ALT="Couple walking along a beach".

If this product title is already present within the page (maybe as an
image caption), then it probably not make sense to also add this as
the image alt attribute value as it would then be redundant and read
twice by screen readers.

It sounds like "closest we can get" is merely a reflection of
limitations of the current system. Certainly there must be a mechanism
for somebody to provide alternative text for such an image somehow,
no?

> So is it preferable to make a best guess at the content of the image,
> or to leave it blank with ALT="" or ALT=" " (seeing as other text
> content within the page describes the image).

Best guess doesn't sound very good. If the content of the image is
conveyed in content, then give it alt="" (assuming it is not the only
thing inside a link, in which case it *must* be given alternative
text, even if it is redundant). Barring that, my first suggestion
would be to fix the system to allow appropriate, descriptive
alternative text.

Alt=" " (quote, space, quote) is never appropriate.

Jared

From: John Foliot
Date: Mon, Feb 28 2011 10:33PM
Subject: Re: Guessing ALT text for product images that are generated automatically
← Previous message | Next message →

Jared Smith wrote:
>
> On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 6:32 PM, Kerryn Sues wrote:
>
> > The closest we can get is to *guess* the content of the image by the
> > product title (e.g., ALT="Bali Holiday - 5 nights" or ALT="Bali") --
> > we can't get as specific as ALT="Couple walking along a beach".
>
> If this product title is already present within the page (maybe as an
> image caption), then it probably not make sense to also add this as
> the image alt attribute value as it would then be redundant and read
> twice by screen readers.

Agreed.

>
> It sounds like "closest we can get" is merely a reflection of
> limitations of the current system. Certainly there must be a mechanism
> for somebody to provide alternative text for such an image somehow,
> no?

This topic has surfaced before in other fora, and specifically the HTML5
Working Group lists. It has been suggested that "heuristic analysis" could
be used to attempt to repair or remediate images with no alt text. While
there was certainly fans of this idea (referring to existing tools such as
Google Goggles) after a fair round of discussion most accessibility
specialists concurred that any "guess" could impart as much confusion and
"harm" as any potential help, primarily due to the fact that appropriate
alt text must be taken in context, and is based upon author intent (in
other words, the author has chosen the image for a reason, and that reason
will influence the value of the alt text).

This is also consistent with W3C's Authoring Tool Accessibility Guidelines
(ATAG) Guideline 3.4 "Do not automatically generate equivalent
alternatives. Do not reuse previously authored alternatives without author
confirmation, except when the function is known with certainty." [Priority
1] (http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-AUTOOLS/#gl-prewritten-descs)

At this time, "heuristic analysis" has been ruled out as a viable means of
determining @alt values in HTML5.

However, if your system allows for human author intervention, then by all
means a 'crowd-sourcing' like mechanism could possibly work.

>
> > So is it preferable to make a best guess at the content of the image,
> > or to leave it blank with ALT="" or ALT=" " (seeing as other text
> > content within the page describes the image).
>
> Best guess doesn't sound very good. If the content of the image is
> conveyed in content, then give it alt="" (assuming it is not the only
> thing inside a link, in which case it *must* be given alternative
> text, even if it is redundant). Barring that, my first suggestion
> would be to fix the system to allow appropriate, descriptive
> alternative text.

Based on what we know from the posting, I think alt="" would be the most
appropriate, with the addition of aria-role="presentation"
(http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/roles#presentation). While the image might
help convey a certain mood or feeling for sighted users, the actual image
(if we are to understand correctly) is being randomly generated, and as
such is as much toss-away visual fluff as useful content.

>
> Alt=" " (quote, space, quote) is never appropriate.

+1

Cheers!

JF

From: Sailesh Panchang
Date: Tue, Mar 01 2011 7:30AM
Subject: Re: Guessing ALT text for product images that are generated automatically
← Previous message | Next message →

Kerryn,
Here is an example where the authors have made a fairly good job of
assigning alt... look at the four images in the main content.
http://qa-feds.humana.com/default.asp
The alt does serve as a replacement for the img in the context it is
used and embellishes the reading experience for screen reader users.
So as Jared / John said the alt should try to capture the author's
intent in placing the img there.
Till the time complete articles are generated automatically (I mean
paragraphs of text with proper markup for headings, lists, tables
etc. in the article) , I suppose some human intervention is inevitable
for assigning proper alt.
Rightho,
Sailesh

On 3/1/11, John Foliot < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Jared Smith wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 6:32 PM, Kerryn Sues wrote:
>>
>> > The closest we can get is to *guess* the content of the image by the
>> > product title (e.g., ALT="Bali Holiday - 5 nights" or ALT="Bali") --
>> > we can't get as specific as ALT="Couple walking along a beach".
>>
>> If this product title is already present within the page (maybe as an
>> image caption), then it probably not make sense to also add this as
>> the image alt attribute value as it would then be redundant and read
>> twice by screen readers.
>
> Agreed.
>
>>
>> It sounds like "closest we can get" is merely a reflection of
>> limitations of the current system. Certainly there must be a mechanism
>> for somebody to provide alternative text for such an image somehow,
>> no?
>
> This topic has surfaced before in other fora, and specifically the HTML5
> Working Group lists. It has been suggested that "heuristic analysis" could
> be used to attempt to repair or remediate images with no alt text. While
> there was certainly fans of this idea (referring to existing tools such as
> Google Goggles) after a fair round of discussion most accessibility
> specialists concurred that any "guess" could impart as much confusion and
> "harm" as any potential help, primarily due to the fact that appropriate
> alt text must be taken in context, and is based upon author intent (in
> other words, the author has chosen the image for a reason, and that reason
> will influence the value of the alt text).
>
> This is also consistent with W3C's Authoring Tool Accessibility Guidelines
> (ATAG) Guideline 3.4 "Do not automatically generate equivalent
> alternatives. Do not reuse previously authored alternatives without author
> confirmation, except when the function is known with certainty." [Priority
> 1] (http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-AUTOOLS/#gl-prewritten-descs)
>
> At this time, "heuristic analysis" has been ruled out as a viable means of
> determining @alt values in HTML5.
>
> However, if your system allows for human author intervention, then by all
> means a 'crowd-sourcing' like mechanism could possibly work.
>
>>
>> > So is it preferable to make a best guess at the content of the image,
>> > or to leave it blank with ALT="" or ALT=" " (seeing as other text
>> > content within the page describes the image).
>>
>> Best guess doesn't sound very good. If the content of the image is
>> conveyed in content, then give it alt="" (assuming it is not the only
>> thing inside a link, in which case it *must* be given alternative
>> text, even if it is redundant). Barring that, my first suggestion
>> would be to fix the system to allow appropriate, descriptive
>> alternative text.
>
> Based on what we know from the posting, I think alt="" would be the most
> appropriate, with the addition of aria-role="presentation"
> (http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/roles#presentation). While the image might
> help convey a certain mood or feeling for sighted users, the actual image
> (if we are to understand correctly) is being randomly generated, and as
> such is as much toss-away visual fluff as useful content.
>
>>
>> Alt=" " (quote, space, quote) is never appropriate.
>
> +1
>
> Cheers!
>
> JF
>
>

From: Sailesh Panchang
Date: Tue, Mar 01 2011 1:33PM
Subject: Re: Guessing ALT text for product images that are generated automatically
← Previous message | Next message →

Sorry about that url. Here it is again
http://feds.humana.com
Sailesh


On 2/28/11, Kerryn Sues < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Hello everyone and thanks in advance for your time and thoughts. We
> have had many discussions on this here, but would love to get any
> feedback.
>
> On our site we have images that are automatically pulled on to the
> page to illustrate a product. We don't know the actual content of
> these images -- e.g., the product might be a Bali holiday, but the
> picture may be a couple walking along a beach.
>
> The closest we can get is to *guess* the content of the image by the
> product title (e.g., ALT="Bali Holiday - 5 nights" or ALT="Bali") --
> we can't get as specific as ALT="Couple walking along a beach".
>
> So is it preferable to make a best guess at the content of the image,
> or to leave it blank with ALT="" or ALT=" " (seeing as other text
> content within the page describes the image).
>
> Thanks again,
> Kerryn
>

From: Donald Evans
Date: Tue, Mar 01 2011 1:48PM
Subject: Re: Guessing ALT text for product images that are generated automatically
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Sailesh? Did I miss an earlier email? Is there an action item on my part.
Let me know please.

On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 3:32 PM, Sailesh Panchang < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> wrote:

> Sorry about that url. Here it is again
> http://feds.humana.com
> Sailesh
>
>
> On 2/28/11, Kerryn Sues < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> > Hello everyone and thanks in advance for your time and thoughts. We
> > have had many discussions on this here, but would love to get any
> > feedback.
> >
> > On our site we have images that are automatically pulled on to the
> > page to illustrate a product. We don't know the actual content of
> > these images -- e.g., the product might be a Bali holiday, but the
> > picture may be a couple walking along a beach.
> >
> > The closest we can get is to *guess* the content of the image by the
> > product title (e.g., ALT="Bali Holiday - 5 nights" or ALT="Bali") --
> > we can't get as specific as ALT="Couple walking along a beach".
> >
> > So is it preferable to make a best guess at the content of the image,
> > or to leave it blank with ALT="" or ALT=" " (seeing as other text
> > content within the page describes the image).
> >
> > Thanks again,
> > Kerryn
> >

From: James Nurthen
Date: Tue, Mar 01 2011 2:15PM
Subject: Re: Guessing ALT text for product images that are generated automatically
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Sailesh,
I'm not sure I agree that the images in this (Humana) page have good
alt text. If they were not also links I would probably agree with you,
but in this page the four images you describe are also links.
The text "Family happy about the security of having medical coverage"
really doesn't tell me that the link is going to the page it does go
to. Note: this link does not appear in JAWS 12 in its default
configuration due to the "Filter Consecutive Duplicate Links" option.

Regards,
James


On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 12:32, Sailesh Panchang
< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Sorry about that url. Here it is again
> http://feds.humana.com
> Sailesh
>
>
> On 2/28/11, Kerryn Sues < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>> Hello everyone and thanks in advance for your time and thoughts.  We
>> have had many discussions on this here, but would love to get any
>> feedback.
>>
>> On our site we have images that are automatically pulled on to the
>> page to illustrate a product. We don't know the actual content of
>> these images -- e.g., the product might be a Bali holiday, but the
>> picture may be a couple walking along a beach.
>>
>> The closest we can get is to *guess* the content of the image by the
>> product title (e.g., ALT="Bali Holiday - 5 nights" or ALT="Bali") --
>> we can't get as specific as ALT="Couple walking along a beach".
>>
>> So is it preferable to make a best guess at the content of the image,
>> or to leave it blank with ALT="" or ALT=" " (seeing as other text
>> content within the page describes the image).
>>
>> Thanks again,
>> Kerryn
>>

From: Sailesh Panchang
Date: Tue, Mar 01 2011 3:15PM
Subject: Re: Guessing ALT text for product images that are generated automatically
← Previous message | Next message →

James,
You are right and I agree they are fairly good examples of alt if they
are not links. I often have the filter off to scan through images.
Sailesh


On 3/1/11, James Nurthen < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Sailesh,
> I'm not sure I agree that the images in this (Humana) page have good
> alt text. If they were not also links I would probably agree with you,
> but in this page the four images you describe are also links.
> The text "Family happy about the security of having medical coverage"
> really doesn't tell me that the link is going to the page it does go
> to. Note: this link does not appear in JAWS 12 in its default
> configuration due to the "Filter Consecutive Duplicate Links" option.
>
> Regards,
> James
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 12:32, Sailesh Panchang
> < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>> Sorry about that url. Here it is again
>> http://feds.humana.com
>> Sailesh
>>
>>
>> On 2/28/11, Kerryn Sues < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>>> Hello everyone and thanks in advance for your time and thoughts. We
>>> have had many discussions on this here, but would love to get any
>>> feedback.
>>>
>>> On our site we have images that are automatically pulled on to the
>>> page to illustrate a product. We don't know the actual content of
>>> these images -- e.g., the product might be a Bali holiday, but the
>>> picture may be a couple walking along a beach.
>>>
>>> The closest we can get is to *guess* the content of the image by the
>>> product title (e.g., ALT="Bali Holiday - 5 nights" or ALT="Bali") --
>>> we can't get as specific as ALT="Couple walking along a beach".
>>>
>>> So is it preferable to make a best guess at the content of the image,
>>> or to leave it blank with ALT="" or ALT=" " (seeing as other text
>>> content within the page describes the image).
>>>
>>> Thanks again,
>>> Kerryn
>>>

From: Webb, KerryA
Date: Tue, Mar 01 2011 8:27PM
Subject: Re: Guessing ALT text for product images that are generated automatically
← Previous message | Next message →

Sailesh wrote:

>
> James,
> You are right and I agree they are fairly good examples of alt if they
> are not links. I often have the filter off to scan through images.

I don't think that they are good examples - but then I am an avowed minimalist.

Of course a family is happy about the security of having medical coverage, given the purpose of the site. That alt text adds nothing to the experience of the user.

Kerry


--
Kerry Webb
Manager, Policy Office
Shared Services | ACT Government

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From: Jadhav, Ashitosh
Date: Tue, Mar 01 2011 9:33PM
Subject: Re: Guessing ALT text for product images that are generated automatically
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Sailesh,

Some issue with this link you provided as it's not opening.

Also I would like to add that if you keep the alt attribute of img blank and give proper title to anchor tag for link images the Screen readers it properly as a link. I generally use "Click image, will take you to..".

Thanks,
Ashitosh