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Number of posts in this thread: 11 (In chronological order)

From: Nancy Johnson
Date: Wed, Nov 14 2012 5:46AM
Subject: wai-aria presentation roles vs skip links
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Hi,

If I add presentation wai-aria roles, do I still need to use skip links?

Thanks

Nancy

From: Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Date: Wed, Nov 14 2012 8:37AM
Subject: Re: wai-aria presentation roles vs skip links
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Hi Nancy

I would say, unfortunately, yes.
Some A.T. has not yet adapted WAI-ARIA compatibility, though it is
happening (upcoming Window Eyes v8.0 has ARIA support, it is coming,
same with Supernova v14, both are screen readers, but keep in mind
upgrades can be expensive and many users will not upgrade overnight).
Again, these are just two apps off the top of my head, not pointing to
them as examples of behind-the-times mentality or bad practice in any
way.
For backwards compatibility I would keep skip-to links for some time
to come. It seems ARIA is really taking hold now, and my answer might
be different in a year, but I do think it is safe to keep these in.
Of course another way to look at these it what is available i free
screen reading or other A.T. apps (NvDA, Google Chrome Vox etc.) all
of which do support skip-links, and say users need to use these since
they are freely available, but people are creatures of habit, and it
will also take time. I only mentioned screen readers because I am not
so sure about Dragon Dictate and other software support of ARIA,
though I do believe dictation software does not yet support these
landmarks.

Cheers
-B

On 11/14/12, Nancy Johnson < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Hi,
>
> If I add presentation wai-aria roles, do I still need to use skip links?
>
> Thanks
>
> Nancy
> > > >

From: Lucy Greco
Date: Wed, Nov 14 2012 8:59AM
Subject: Re: wai-aria presentation roles vs skip links
← Previous message | Next message →

hello:
as a dragon user i know that it does not support landmarks. there is
no way for a non screen reader user to even know that there is a land
mark so how would dragon users know to use them. i do think that
j-say can use landmarks but its the jaws part of it not dragon

On 11/14/12, Birkir R. Gunnarsson < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Hi Nancy
>
> I would say, unfortunately, yes.
> Some A.T. has not yet adapted WAI-ARIA compatibility, though it is
> happening (upcoming Window Eyes v8.0 has ARIA support, it is coming,
> same with Supernova v14, both are screen readers, but keep in mind
> upgrades can be expensive and many users will not upgrade overnight).
> Again, these are just two apps off the top of my head, not pointing to
> them as examples of behind-the-times mentality or bad practice in any
> way.
> For backwards compatibility I would keep skip-to links for some time
> to come. It seems ARIA is really taking hold now, and my answer might
> be different in a year, but I do think it is safe to keep these in.
> Of course another way to look at these it what is available i free
> screen reading or other A.T. apps (NvDA, Google Chrome Vox etc.) all
> of which do support skip-links, and say users need to use these since
> they are freely available, but people are creatures of habit, and it
> will also take time. I only mentioned screen readers because I am not
> so sure about Dragon Dictate and other software support of ARIA,
> though I do believe dictation software does not yet support these
> landmarks.
>
> Cheers
> -B
>
> On 11/14/12, Nancy Johnson < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> If I add presentation wai-aria roles, do I still need to use skip links?
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Nancy
>> >> >> >>
> > > >


--
Lucia Greco
Web Access Analyst
IST-Campus Technology Services
University of California, Berkeley
(510) 289-6008
http://webaccess.berkeley.edu

From: Monique Brunel
Date: Wed, Nov 14 2012 9:19AM
Subject: Re: wai-aria presentation roles vs skip links
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Le 14/11/2012 13:46, Nancy Johnson a écrit :
> Hi,
>
> If I add presentation wai-aria roles, do I still need to use skip links?
>
> Thanks
>
> Nancy

Hi,

Skip links are not only useful for users of screen reader or other AT.
There are also for all keyboard users, by choice or due to a disability.
The response by Steve Faulkner:
http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/2012/08/examples-of-skip-links-on-some-bank-sites/comment-page-1/#comment-20850
"Currently browsers do not support keyboard navigation via landmark
roles, so for keyboard users who do not also use assistive tech, a
visible skip link is needed."

Skip links may also be useful for mobile and tablets users, as explained
by Henny Swan:
http://www.iheni.com/skip-links-on-mobile-and-tablets/

Another good post by Terrill Thompson:
http://terrillthompson.com/blog/161

Please, can you excuse the mistakes, I'm French speaking. Thank you!

Friendly,
Monique

--
Accessibilité et qualité des sites Web
Monique Brunel - Conférences - Ateliers - Conseil
| http://blog.webatou.info | Tél. +32(0)473 25 81 94
| www.opquast.com | www.openweb.eu.org | www.mozilla-belgium.org |

From: Alan M. Dalton
Date: Thu, Nov 15 2012 7:06AM
Subject: Re: wai-aria presentation roles vs skip links
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Hi Nancy,

I agree with Birkir, Monique, and Lucy: if your website needs a skip-link,
Wai-Aria landmark roles are not a substitute.

However, not every website needs a skip-link: I didn’t put a skip-link on
http://accessibility.ie because the content comes before the navigation on
each webpage. WCAG 2.0 allows that: “[…] if a set of navigation links is
provided at the bottom of a web page[,] providing a "skip" link may be
unnecessary” ( http://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/navigation-mechanisms-skip.html ).
This design has another benefit: as Luke Wroblewski says, “Focusing on
content first, navigation second gets people to the information and tasks
they want
quickly” ( http://www.alistapart.com/articles/organizing-mobile/ ).

Regards,
Alan.

Alan Dalton
Access Officer and Accessibility Development Advisor
http://accessibility.ie
National Disability Authority http://www.nda.ie
25 Clyde Road, Dublin 4, Ireland http://goo.gl/maps/gOjcj

From: McKeithan, Thomas
Date: Thu, Nov 15 2012 7:07AM
Subject: Re: wai-aria presentation roles vs skip links
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I concur.

Respectfully,
Thomas Lee McKeithan II
Accessibility Program Manager
National Industries for the Blind
1310 Braddock Place
Alexandria, VA 22314
(703)310-0586 Direct
(202)276-6437 Cell
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =


“Believing is achieving, for if I believe, I can and I will achieve.”

From: Jared Smith
Date: Thu, Nov 15 2012 7:20AM
Subject: Re: wai-aria presentation roles vs skip links
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On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 7:06 AM, Alan M. Dalton wrote:

> However, not every website needs a skip-link: I didn’t put a skip-link on
> http://accessibility.ie because the content comes before the navigation on
> each webpage.

This works OK on this site because of the left-hand navigation. If the
navigation were at the top of the page, it could be very confusing for
sighted keyboard-only users for the navigation order to begin part way
down the page.

> as Luke Wroblewski says, “Focusing on
> content first, navigation second gets people to the information and tasks
> they want

Which makes sense, so long as the information and tasks they want are
not found in the navigation. This approach requires navigating
entirely through the page content before one gets to the navigation.
Would a "skip to navigation" link be useful?

And to concur with others, "skip" links are generally still necessary,
primarily for sighted keyboard users, even if landmarks are
implemented. If browsers would simply provide keyboard navigation by
headings and landmarks, the intrusive hack of "skip" links could go
away. And good riddance to them!

Jared

From: Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Date: Thu, Nov 15 2012 7:47AM
Subject: Re: wai-aria presentation roles vs skip links
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What about using the much maligned hotkey attribute for sighted
keyboard only users to facilitate skip links (or replace them)?
say alt-3 to get to main content of a page.
(screen readers generally leave the number keys alone when it comes to
naweb navigation).

Do browsers show hotkey attributes at all visually (I know screen
readers announce them).
I know they are not recommended practice any more in most cases, but I
still do believe they may have a place in certain situations, just
curious if this might be one such, but only if they are vissible in
browsers by default.


On 11/15/12, Jared Smith < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 7:06 AM, Alan M. Dalton wrote:
>
>> However, not every website needs a skip-link: I didn’t put a skip-link on
>> http://accessibility.ie because the content comes before the navigation
>> on
>> each webpage.
>
> This works OK on this site because of the left-hand navigation. If the
> navigation were at the top of the page, it could be very confusing for
> sighted keyboard-only users for the navigation order to begin part way
> down the page.
>
>> as Luke Wroblewski says, “Focusing on
>> content first, navigation second gets people to the information and tasks
>> they want
>
> Which makes sense, so long as the information and tasks they want are
> not found in the navigation. This approach requires navigating
> entirely through the page content before one gets to the navigation.
> Would a "skip to navigation" link be useful?
>
> And to concur with others, "skip" links are generally still necessary,
> primarily for sighted keyboard users, even if landmarks are
> implemented. If browsers would simply provide keyboard navigation by
> headings and landmarks, the intrusive hack of "skip" links could go
> away. And good riddance to them!
>
> Jared
> > > >

From: Jared Smith
Date: Thu, Nov 15 2012 8:04AM
Subject: Re: wai-aria presentation roles vs skip links
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On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 7:47 AM, Birkir R. Gunnarsson wrote:

> Do browsers show hotkey attributes at all visually

No. Discoverability is a primary issue with accesskeys. That and most
people don't know how to activate them anyway - the key combination
required varies by browser.

Additionally, accesskey would require a "skip" link anyway in order
for the key combination to activate that link.

I think the only place accesskey might be a suitable alternative to a
skip link would be in a web application where the user could be made
very familiar with the shortcuts. And in that case, it would probably
be better to script your own keys (such as "M" for main content)
rather than relying on accesskey.

Jared

From: Nancy Johnson
Date: Thu, Nov 15 2012 8:13AM
Subject: Re: wai-aria presentation roles vs skip links
← Previous message | Next message →

Thank you all.
You have answered my question and an interesting discussion This is
a standard global nav at the top section navigation on the left.

Nancy

On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 10:04 AM, Jared Smith < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 7:47 AM, Birkir R. Gunnarsson wrote:
>
>> Do browsers show hotkey attributes at all visually
>
> No. Discoverability is a primary issue with accesskeys. That and most
> people don't know how to activate them anyway - the key combination
> required varies by browser.
>
> Additionally, accesskey would require a "skip" link anyway in order
> for the key combination to activate that link.
>
> I think the only place accesskey might be a suitable alternative to a
> skip link would be in a web application where the user could be made
> very familiar with the shortcuts. And in that case, it would probably
> be better to script your own keys (such as "M" for main content)
> rather than relying on accesskey.
>
> Jared
> > >

From: Alan M. Dalton
Date: Mon, Nov 19 2012 10:00AM
Subject: Re: WAI-ARIA presentation roles vs skip links
← Previous message | No next message

Hi Jared,

Thanks for that.

You make a good point about the position of the navigation. That website is
actually responsive. On a webpage such as
http://accessibility.ie/MakeYourWebsitesMoreAccessible , the navigation
appears:
- below the content in windows that are less than 960px wide;
- on the right-hand side, below the “Tips” section, when the screen width
is 960px–1343px;
- on the left-hand side when the screen width is greater than 1344px.

I hope to run more user testing soon, and might try a “Skip to navigation”
link for screens that are less than 960px wide. That might help sighted
keyboard users, and screen reader users who don’t use ARIA landmark roles.

Regards,
Alan.

Alan Dalton
Access Officer and Accessibility Development Advisor
http://accessibility.ie
National Disability Authority http://www.nda.ie
25 Clyde Road, Dublin 4, Ireland http://goo.gl/maps/gOjcj