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From: Lori K. Brown
Date: Fri, Oct 25 2002 11:41AM
Subject: turning off style sheets
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Dear list:

I often see responses that are couched in terms of "what if style
sheets are turned 'off'." I have two questions about this:

1) For the browsers I know, (IE, some Opera, NN old and new,
Mozilla), one doesn't so much turn stylesheets 'off', as much as one
substitutes one's own preferences in a given area (larger text, high
contrast colors, etc.) Is there in fact a way to turn stylesheets
OFF entirely in modern browsers, or is it always a case of
substituting some or all of one's own preferences into a local
stylesheet?

2) Besides accessibility / colorblindness type issues, is there a
good reason why a user might be doing this? I'm not trying to be
snotty, I just honestly want to understand if there's a specific
need being addressed.

3) As long as this is hardcore requirement, isn't CSS-positioning
completely off the table, or is 'graceful degradation' acceptable?

If the only reason to bend over backwards to create presentation
solutions that don't fall over when style sheets are removed is that
edge-condition nitpickers are going to give you a hard time for it,
I will be hard to persuade that it's worth the additional effort.

Lori Kay Brown
User Interface Engineer
SiteScape, Inc.
E-mail: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =


-------- Original Message --------

==> From: "Leo Smith" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
==> Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 14:21:04 -0400

Glenda,

Jukka's suggestion is a good one that should work for you, even if
users do not have style sheets enabled. Essentially, all that you
are hiding with the CSS is the bullet. If CSS is off, then you will
simply get the bullet followed by the section (2)(i) which you will
enter textually.

You are preserving the structural markup of a list (albeit an
unordered versus an ordered one), whilst getting the presentation
that you are looking for, with the addition of a bullet when style
sheets are switched off - not a big deal.

My 2 cents...

Leo.

On 24 Oct 2002, at 10:08, Glenda Watson Hyatt wrote:

> Thanks for the suggestion, Jukka. However, what happens when a
uses > is not viewing with stylesheets and thus can't find
subsection (2)(i)? > I guess I will stick with invalid markup [<p>
within a <li>], till I > can find a better solution. > > Cheers, >
Glenda > > > As a workaround, though, you might consider using <ul>
markup with > > the numbers as explicit content, and a CSS rule that
suggests > > suppression of bullets: <style type="text/css"> ul li {
> > list-style-type: none; } </style> > > ... > > <ul> > > <li>(1)
foo > > <li>(2) bar > > </ul> > > > > --

Leo Smith Web Designer/Developer USM Office of Publications and
Marketing University of Southern Maine 207-780-4774

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From: Joel Ward
Date: Fri, Oct 25 2002 11:52AM
Subject: Re: turning off style sheets
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Hi Lori,

I hope I understand you correctly. Here goes.

> I often see responses that are couched in terms of "what if style
> sheets are turned 'off'." I have two questions about this:

One example: Lynx. (aka text browser)

Another example: JAWS or any other assistive technology - In this case, the
visual display is not as important as the structure of the content in the
code. CSS probably has no useful effect on these users.

> 3) As long as this is hardcore requirement, isn't CSS-positioning
> completely off the table, or is 'graceful degradation' acceptable?

I'd say 'graceful degradation' is acceptable, as long as the underlying code
is structured properly.

Yep, there will be those who feel all browsers must display your pages the
same way, but that's never going to happen, especially now as we find more
and more types and brands of browsers appearing (e.g. Opera, AT, cell
phones, PDAs, cars...).

Now, I've deposited my 2 cents. :-)

Joel


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From: Timothy J. Luoma
Date: Fri, Oct 25 2002 12:02PM
Subject: Re: turning off style sheets
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Lori K. Brown wrote:

> 1) For the browsers I know, (IE, some Opera, NN old and new,
> Mozilla), one doesn't so much turn stylesheets 'off', as much as one
> substitutes one's own preferences in a given area (larger text, high
> contrast colors, etc.) Is there in fact a way to turn stylesheets
> OFF entirely in modern browsers, or is it always a case of
> substituting some or all of one's own preferences into a local
> stylesheet?

Opera can turn OFF style sheets

File > Preferences > Page Style > Author Mode
uncheck 'Page style sheet' and CSS is gone


I don't know about fully turning OFF style sheets in lesser browsers...

Mozilla can turn OFF colors
Edit> Preferences > Appearance > Use my chosen colors

Internet Explorer can turn OFF colors and fonts

Tools > Options > General > Accessibility >
Ignore colors specified on web pages
Ignore font styles specified on web pages
Ignore font sizes specified on web pages

and of course there are no doubt hacks out there (bookmarklets come to
mind) that let one disable CSS)

> 2) Besides accessibility / colorblindness type issues, is there a
> good reason why a user might be doing this? I'm not trying to be
> snotty, I just honestly want to understand if there's a specific
> need being addressed.

YES! Some people suck at designing web pages! C|Net, for example,
loves to use as small of a font as they can possibly get. Many pages
like to cram as much as they possibly can into a tiny space. alt+G
(toggle styles) and 8 (increase zoom 100%) and I can read any page.

> 3) As long as this is hardcore requirement, isn't CSS-positioning
> completely off the table, or is 'graceful degradation' acceptable?

Graceful degradation (hrm... not a phrase one is likely to hear outside
of web design) is acceptable.

Besides, users can turn off tables too :-)


> If the only reason to bend over backwards to create presentation
> solutions that don't fall over when style sheets are removed is that
> edge-condition nitpickers are going to give you a hard time for it,
> I will be hard to persuade that it's worth the additional effort.

Text-only browsers, screen readers and search engines read your pages
without CSS attached. Of those you might only care about the 3rd, but
they are all good reasons:

see
http://diveintoaccessibility.org/day_10_presenting_your_main_content_first.html

Text-only browsers, screen readers and search engines are actually
arguments FOR using CSS positioning, because it lets you display the
page how you want on GUI browsers while still being able to get the
information to those using other User Agents.

TjL

--
Now showing: Zen and the Art of Beta Testing
Brother, can you spare a dime? (Opera selling for $29)
OperaBlog: Beyond30 http://tntluoma.com/beyond30
Other Stuff http://tntluoma.com/



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From: Jon Gunderson
Date: Fri, Oct 25 2002 12:10PM
Subject: Survey of the use of Microsoft Office in creating web resources
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I am creating tools for Microsoft Office that will make the web more
accessible to people with disabilities. I would appreciate if you could
take a few minutes to fill out the short survey at the following URL. The
results will be used in a grant proposal to develop tools to create
accessible web resources using Microsoft Office. In the survey you can
indicate your interest in receiving information about the tools as they
become available.

Survey URL: http://www.rehab.uiuc.edu/servlets/survey.survey6

Please feel free to forward this survey to other people you think would be
interested.

If you have any questions please contact Jon Gunderson at e-mail:
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = .

Thank you for your consideration,
Jon


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From: John Foliot - bytown internet
Date: Fri, Oct 25 2002 12:22PM
Subject: RE: turning off style sheets
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Lori,

Most "modern" browsers do support syle sheets, and the W3C urges you to use
them for all of your display considerations. The issue is more, what
happens when a browser which does not support style sheets hit's your
site... what are *they* being served up? Does the content make sense
semantically and structurally? If so, then Bob's yer Uncle. Generally, the
only user agents which do not support style sheets left are the text only
variety, such as Lynx, but also as mentioned elsewhere other smaller devices
such as cell phones and PDAs. In both instances, the only content which
"get's through" is the text. Ensuring that it is structurally marked up
using appropriate tags (<h1>, <ul>, <ol>, etc.) is the goal of the
requirment.

Now to the next question - can you remove style sheet support in a "regular"
modern browser... to which I'll answer "sorta". I have collected a number
of small testing tools which assist in the process of testing web pages
under development. These tools all take advantage of the DOM of the IE
browser, extending the "right click" functionality of the browser. One of
the tools "removes" style sheets, however only linked styles... inline
styles are not affected. Anyway, see
http://www.bytowninternet.com/accessibility2_e.html#test

Good Luck.

JF


>
>
> Dear list:
>
> I often see responses that are couched in terms of "what if style
> sheets are turned 'off'." I have two questions about this:
>
> 1) For the browsers I know, (IE, some Opera, NN old and new,
> Mozilla), one doesn't so much turn stylesheets 'off', as much as one
> substitutes one's own preferences in a given area (larger text, high
> contrast colors, etc.) Is there in fact a way to turn stylesheets
> OFF entirely in modern browsers, or is it always a case of
> substituting some or all of one's own preferences into a local
> stylesheet?
>
> 2) Besides accessibility / colorblindness type issues, is there a
> good reason why a user might be doing this? I'm not trying to be
> snotty, I just honestly want to understand if there's a specific
> need being addressed.
>
> 3) As long as this is hardcore requirement, isn't CSS-positioning
> completely off the table, or is 'graceful degradation' acceptable?
>
> If the only reason to bend over backwards to create presentation
> solutions that don't fall over when style sheets are removed is that
> edge-condition nitpickers are going to give you a hard time for it,
> I will be hard to persuade that it's worth the additional effort.
>
> Lori Kay Brown
> User Interface Engineer
> SiteScape, Inc.
> E-mail: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>
>
> -------- Original Message --------
>
> ==> From: "Leo Smith" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> ==> Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 14:21:04 -0400
>
> Glenda,
>
> Jukka's suggestion is a good one that should work for you, even if
> users do not have style sheets enabled. Essentially, all that you
> are hiding with the CSS is the bullet. If CSS is off, then you will
> simply get the bullet followed by the section (2)(i) which you will
> enter textually.
>
> You are preserving the structural markup of a list (albeit an
> unordered versus an ordered one), whilst getting the presentation
> that you are looking for, with the addition of a bullet when style
> sheets are switched off - not a big deal.
>
> My 2 cents...
>
> Leo.
>
> On 24 Oct 2002, at 10:08, Glenda Watson Hyatt wrote:
>
> > Thanks for the suggestion, Jukka. However, what happens when a
> uses > is not viewing with stylesheets and thus can't find
> subsection (2)(i)? > I guess I will stick with invalid markup [<p>
> within a <li>], till I > can find a better solution. > > Cheers, >
> Glenda > > > As a workaround, though, you might consider using <ul>
> markup with > > the numbers as explicit content, and a CSS rule that
> suggests > > suppression of bullets: <style type="text/css"> ul li {
> > > list-style-type: none; } </style> > > ... > > <ul> > > <li>(1)
> foo > > <li>(2) bar > > </ul> > > > > --
>
> Leo Smith Web Designer/Developer USM Office of Publications and
> Marketing University of Southern Maine 207-780-4774
>
> ---- To subscribe, unsubscribe, or view list archives, visit
> http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>
>
> ----
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or view list archives,
> visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>


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