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Number of posts in this thread: 8 (In chronological order)

From: Alastair Campbell
Date: Fri, Nov 29 2013 5:37PM
Subject: browser zoom VS text zoom
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Apologies for jumping on an old thread, but I had an idea.

We were discussing zoom vs text sizing, and I was positive about responsive
design when used with browser zoom.

As a designer/developer you tend to either use responsive techniques and
manage the layout at different sizes, or you have to allow for text-size
increases (although more likely you bother).

However, as a user how do you know what the website is doing? Do you try
one and then the other?
Just using text-size will create unusable responsive sites, and just zoom
will leave you with lots of horizontal scrolling.

Then it occurred to me (in the pub with friends) that there is a very
obvious signal from the website about the best type of sizing to use: the
meta-viewport tag.

If a site is responsive, it will use:
<meta name="viewport" content="width=device-width">

Therefore the browser could default to zoom. If it doesn't use that value,
text-sizing would be more appropriate.

Can you foresee situations when that wouldn't work, or make things worse?

The only one I can think of is that for narrow sites (e.g. 800px wide in a
large browser window) then zooming without responsive design can be ok, as
it just fills the window.

Overall, it seems like you could remove the browser control for switching
to text size, and use the meta viewport as the signal to change behaviour.

-Alastair

From: Steve Green
Date: Fri, Nov 29 2013 6:22PM
Subject: Re: browser zoom VS text zoom
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The problem with your suggestion is that it only works if every website in the world is designed well. Non-responsive websites *should* accommodate text resizing but we all know that a large proportion of them do not. If users do not have the option to select zoom, those sites will not be usable.

Steve Green

From: Alastair Campbell
Date: Sat, Nov 30 2013 8:03AM
Subject: Re: browser zoom VS text zoom
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Hi Steve,

But assuming sites are not well designed, isn't text-sizing better than
zoom?

I realise there is a huge range of ways to design badly for re-sizing, and
most don't do it well. However, by accident (usually) responsive sites are
designed well for zoom.

Perhaps a way of maintaining the choice would be for the browser to leave
the control, but default to zoom when on a responsive site (one declaring
the viewport=device-width). If the user still decides to switch back to
text-only then save the choice for that site.

Without a switch of default (or a huge education campaign) then many people
will think that many sites are rubbish for re-sizing when actually they are
great - if you zoom.

-Alastair


On Sat, Nov 30, 2013 at 1:22 AM, Steve Green < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> wrote:

> The problem with your suggestion is that it only works if every website in
> the world is designed well. Non-responsive websites *should* accommodate
> text resizing but we all know that a large proportion of them do not. If
> users do not have the option to select zoom, those sites will not be usable.
>
> Steve Green
>
>

From: Cameron Cundiff
Date: Sat, Nov 30 2013 8:59AM
Subject: Re: browser zoom VS text zoom
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Alastair, a simple demo might be helpful. I'm also curious how it impacts touch screens.

> On Nov 30, 2013, at 10:03 AM, Alastair Campbell < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> Hi Steve,
>
> But assuming sites are not well designed, isn't text-sizing better than
> zoom?
>
> I realise there is a huge range of ways to design badly for re-sizing, and
> most don't do it well. However, by accident (usually) responsive sites are
> designed well for zoom.
>
> Perhaps a way of maintaining the choice would be for the browser to leave
> the control, but default to zoom when on a responsive site (one declaring
> the viewport=device-width). If the user still decides to switch back to
> text-only then save the choice for that site.
>
> Without a switch of default (or a huge education campaign) then many people
> will think that many sites are rubbish for re-sizing when actually they are
> great - if you zoom.
>
> -Alastair
>
>
> On Sat, Nov 30, 2013 at 1:22 AM, Steve Green < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> wrote:
>
>> The problem with your suggestion is that it only works if every website in
>> the world is designed well. Non-responsive websites *should* accommodate
>> text resizing but we all know that a large proportion of them do not. If
>> users do not have the option to select zoom, those sites will not be usable.
>>
>> Steve Green
>>
>>

From: Alastair Campbell
Date: Sat, Nov 30 2013 11:07AM
Subject: Re: browser zoom VS text zoom
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Hi Cameron,

A realistic demo would involve a browser plugin, but I can provide some
steps to show what it's like:

1. Open www.bbc.co.uk in a browser with both zoom and text-only zoom.
Safari version >6, Firefox >3, I think IE >8 as well? Not Chrome/Opera as
they don't have text-only zoom.

The default is zoom, and if you bump it up 200% with cntl/cmd and +, you
get a lot of horizontal scrolling. If you switch to text-only, the
experience is better. Not great, but better as there's no horizontal
scrolling (something people a magnifier find really hard to deal with).

The BBC (homepage at least) isn't a responsive site and doesn't declare a
viewport, so imagine the browser automatically switched to text-zoom onload
of the first page.

2. The second example would be bostonglobe.com. If you open that (same
browser and settings) you'll get a lot of unreadable, overlapping text with
text-only zoom.

The globe does declare viewport though, so imagine it automatically
switched to zoom. If you switch to zoom, you'll get the best experience so
far as it then uses the mobile-sized styles.

Touch-screens, or rather non-desktop devices are interesting, as the
mechanics of zoom are different. In that case they don't have text-zoom at
all (or very few devices do), and zoom works like a screen-magnifier. I
think there are improvements to be made for mobile zooming, but it doesn't
affect this conversation and I would rather deal with it separately.

Cheers,

-Alastair

From: Steve Green
Date: Sat, Nov 30 2013 12:34PM
Subject: Re: browser zoom VS text zoom
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Automatically switching to zoom is fine as long as the user still has the option to select text resizing if they want. It's the removal of that option that I have a problem with, not the switching.

Steve Green

From: Cameron Cundiff
Date: Sat, Nov 30 2013 2:43PM
Subject: Re: browser zoom VS text zoom
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Thanks for the clarification Alastair, now I understand the distinction between zoom and text only zoom. You might also try to sniff for various responsive frameworks via CSS file names.

> On Nov 30, 2013, at 1:07 PM, Alastair Campbell < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> Hi Cameron,
>
> A realistic demo would involve a browser plugin, but I can provide some
> steps to show what it's like:
>
> 1. Open www.bbc.co.uk in a browser with both zoom and text-only zoom.
> Safari version >6, Firefox >3, I think IE >8 as well? Not Chrome/Opera as
> they don't have text-only zoom.
>
> The default is zoom, and if you bump it up 200% with cntl/cmd and +, you
> get a lot of horizontal scrolling. If you switch to text-only, the
> experience is better. Not great, but better as there's no horizontal
> scrolling (something people a magnifier find really hard to deal with).
>
> The BBC (homepage at least) isn't a responsive site and doesn't declare a
> viewport, so imagine the browser automatically switched to text-zoom onload
> of the first page.
>
> 2. The second example would be bostonglobe.com. If you open that (same
> browser and settings) you'll get a lot of unreadable, overlapping text with
> text-only zoom.
>
> The globe does declare viewport though, so imagine it automatically
> switched to zoom. If you switch to zoom, you'll get the best experience so
> far as it then uses the mobile-sized styles.
>
> Touch-screens, or rather non-desktop devices are interesting, as the
> mechanics of zoom are different. In that case they don't have text-zoom at
> all (or very few devices do), and zoom works like a screen-magnifier. I
> think there are improvements to be made for mobile zooming, but it doesn't
> affect this conversation and I would rather deal with it separately.
>
> Cheers,
>
> -Alastair
> > >

From: Alastair Campbell
Date: Sun, Dec 01 2013 5:55AM
Subject: Re: browser zoom VS text zoom
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On Saturday, November 30, 2013, Cameron Cundiff wrote:

> You might also try to sniff for various responsive frameworks via CSS file
> names.
>

I don't think you would need to, unless you know of ones that don't use
viewport=device width?

Responsive techniques like media queries rely on that, so it is a very
clear signal.

If no-one can think of issues with it, I'll try adding some bugs to the
browsers which have both.

Alastair