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From: Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Date: Sun, Mar 09 2014 8:48PM
Subject: Can Word and Adobe ACrobat on a Mac make accessible/tagged PDF files?
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Greetings gang.
Hope to see many of you in San Diego next week, I am excited.
I am trying to help debug a PDF file remotely, it is untagged and has
no accessibility structure.
It is generated using Word on OSX.
The person also has access to ADobe Acrobat, but also on OSX.
The precise versions:

Word Mac 2008, version 12.1.0
The AAP: Adobe Acrobat 8 Professional Version 8.0.0

It seems like Word for Mac does not export tagged PDF files when saved
as PDF in the Word document, at least not by default.
I know support for tagging is usually much more spottyon OSX, but I do
not know to what extent that applies to Office or Adobe products run
on that platform.
If anyone knows, or can point me to a resource on this, it would be
much apreciated.
Thanks



--
Work hard. Have fun. Make history.

From: Chagnon | PubCom
Date: Sun, Mar 09 2014 9:19PM
Subject: Re: Can Word and Adobe ACrobat on a Mac make accessible/taggedPDF files?
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At this time (and for the foreseeable future, as I understand it) you can't
make a PDF from Word/Mac. I've been told that it's a problem with Apple's
OS, not Adobe and Microsoft.

We haven't yet upgraded to Mavericks (Mac's latest OS) so I don't know if
the problem was resolved with the new Apple OS.

Our office's solution is to open the Word document in Word/Windows, export
to accessible PDF, and complete the accessibility on the Windows side.

-Bevi Chagnon
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
www.PubCom.com - Trainers, Consultants, Designers, Developers.
Print, Web, Acrobat, XML, eBooks, and U.S. Federal Section 508
Accessibility.
New Sec. 508 Workshop & EPUBs Tour in 2014 - www.Workshop.Pubcom.com

From: Ryan E. Benson
Date: Sun, Mar 09 2014 9:20PM
Subject: Re: Can Word and Adobe ACrobat on a Mac make accessible/tagged PDF files?
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Hi Birkir,

I don't know the state of accessibility for PDFs on OSX, but it was pretty
bad.

In Word 2007 and higher for Windows, when you change the file type to PDF,
an options button appears. If this is the same for OSX, in the options
window, you want to check the document properties and document structure
tags for accessibility options. The Windows version of the structure tags
is not great, but usually gets a foot in the door.

I recommend trying to upgrade a version or two of Acrobat, if possible.

--
Ryan E. Benson


On Sun, Mar 9, 2014 at 10:48 PM, Birkir R. Gunnarsson <
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Greetings gang.
> Hope to see many of you in San Diego next week, I am excited.
> I am trying to help debug a PDF file remotely, it is untagged and has
> no accessibility structure.
> It is generated using Word on OSX.
> The person also has access to ADobe Acrobat, but also on OSX.
> The precise versions:
>
> Word Mac 2008, version 12.1.0
> The AAP: Adobe Acrobat 8 Professional Version 8.0.0
>
> It seems like Word for Mac does not export tagged PDF files when saved
> as PDF in the Word document, at least not by default.
> I know support for tagging is usually much more spottyon OSX, but I do
> not know to what extent that applies to Office or Adobe products run
> on that platform.
> If anyone knows, or can point me to a resource on this, it would be
> much apreciated.
> Thanks
>
>
>
> --
> Work hard. Have fun. Make history.
> > > >

From: Chagnon | PubCom
Date: Sun, Mar 09 2014 9:23PM
Subject: Re: Can Word and Adobe ACrobat on a Mac make accessible/taggedPDF files?
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Birkir wrote:
" I do not know to what extent that applies to Office or Adobe products run
on that platform. "

By the way, exporting accessible PDFs from Adobe's products on the Mac is
just fine.

But with MS Office/Mac, there isn't an Acrobat plug-in to make the PDFs from
Office. Apple does have its Acrobat-Reader-Knock-Off called Preview, but it
can't make either accessible PDFs nor press-quality PDFs.

This is one case where Windows does a better job.

-Bevi Chagnon
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
www.PubCom.com - Trainers, Consultants, Designers, Developers.
Print, Web, Acrobat, XML, eBooks, and U.S. Federal Section 508
Accessibility.
New Sec. 508 Workshop & EPUBs Tour in 2014 - www.Workshop.Pubcom.com

From: Duff Johnson
Date: Sun, Mar 09 2014 9:36PM
Subject: Re: Can Word and Adobe ACrobat on a Mac make accessible/tagged PDF files?
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> I don't know the state of accessibility for PDFs on OSX, but it was pretty
> bad.

That would be an under-statement.

On OSX, the mere act of saving a previously-tagged PDF in Preview (the OS's default viewer) with no modifications causes tags to be dumped. It won't even say "sorry".

For shame!

> In Word 2007 and higher for Windows, when you change the file type to PDF,
> an options button appears. If this is the same for OSX, in the options
> window, you want to check the document properties and document structure
> tags for accessibility options. The Windows version of the structure tags
> is not great, but usually gets a foot in the door.

Open Office makes tagged PDF on the Mac as well.

Duff.

From: Olaf Drümmer
Date: Mon, Mar 10 2014 4:18AM
Subject: Re: Can Word and Adobe ACrobat on a Mac make accessible/tagged PDF files?
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Hi Gunnar,

just to clarify a few things about Microsoft Word (and several other of Microsoft's office apps):

- on Windows, Word has been doing a kind of OK job of exporting to tagged PDF; this functionality is executed by Microsoft's own module "Save as PDF", and has been available since a service pack for Office 2007 was released

- before that Adobe Acrobat was the only way for many to create a tagged PDF from Word; Acrobat installed a helper tool in Word, and as far as I know did a lot of magic to inject custom codes into Word's PostScript generation, sent that through Distiller, which understood the custom codes, and produced a tagged PDF; it may also be that some clean up was done after the PDF had been created

- on Mac Microsoft decided to rely on the print output path that the operating system provides - which is fully PDF based but without any support for tagged PDF; what Microsoft did not do - which is very unfortunate - is to take their "Save as PDF" module and migrate it to Mac OS X; this would obviously have been a possible option, but for whatever reason Microsoft did not go for it

- as options to extend Microsoft office applications are much more limited on Mac than on Windows, I believe Adobe was unable to find a way to do the same magic stuff on Mac they did on Windows (especially before the Save as PDF module came out)

- the only good news here is: even if an author creates a Microsoft Word file on Mac, not at all is lost - just launch Microsoft Word on a Windows operating system, and save to PDF from there. Please understand that the feature set between Word for Windows and Word for Mac has never overlapped 100%; for example, there are are some accessibility related features on Windows that do not exist on Mac (but I do not have the details at hand).


In practical terms: if you have a Word file on Mac, move it to a Windows machine with Word on it, and export to tagged PDF from there. Trying to do it on Mac only will not lead anywhere as of today, as far as I can tell. Maybe Apple Pages becomes accessible one day? Who knows. Will Microsoft migrate their Save as PDF plug-in to Mac one day? Who knows.


Olaf


Am 10 Mar 2014 um 03:48 schrieb "Birkir R. Gunnarsson" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >:
> It seems like Word for Mac does not export tagged PDF files when saved
> as PDF in the Word document, at least not by default.

From: Karlen Communications
Date: Mon, Mar 10 2014 4:21AM
Subject: Re: Can Word and Adobe Acrobat on a Mac makeaccessible/tagged PDF files?
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In both the Windows and Mac versions of Microsoft Office, in the Options
dialog for PDF conversion make sure you check the check box to create
Bookmarks and then the radio button to create them from Headings.

Cheers, Karen

From: Jonathan Metz
Date: Mon, Mar 10 2014 7:12AM
Subject: Re: Can Word and Adobe ACrobat on a Mac make accessible/tagged PDF files?
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On 3/10/14, 6:18 AM, "Olaf Drümmer" wrote:


>
>- the only good news here is: even if an author creates a Microsoft Word
>file on Mac, not at all is lost - just launch Microsoft Word on a Windows
>operating system, and save to PDF from there.

I would add that the original would still need to have had styles applied
to it in order for the tags to be generated appropriately. If the original
author kept everything as ŒNormal¹ (i.e. The Style dialog box was never
opened), it won¹t be much more accessible.

It¹s also better to use Word¹s built-in editors in order to create an
accessible document, such as the Table editor (for example).

Cheers,
Jonathan

From: Olaf Drümmer
Date: Mon, Mar 10 2014 7:23AM
Subject: Re: Can Word and Adobe ACrobat on a Mac make accessible/tagged PDF files?
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Hi Jonathan,

I actually believe that what you write should be stated in a much more general fashion:

the usual rules and best practices still apply!

A Windows (or Word on Windows) user can neglect proper use of style sheets or other aspects as much as a Mac (or Word on Mac) user.

Olaf




Am 10 Mar 2014 um 14:12 schrieb Jonathan Metz < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >:

> On 3/10/14, 6:18 AM, "Olaf Drümmer" wrote:
>
>
>>
>> - the only good news here is: even if an author creates a Microsoft Word
>> file on Mac, not at all is lost - just launch Microsoft Word on a Windows
>> operating system, and save to PDF from there.
>
> I would add that the original would still need to have had styles applied
> to it in order for the tags to be generated appropriately. If the original
> author kept everything as ŒNormal¹ (i.e. The Style dialog box was never
> opened), it won¹t be much more accessible.
>
> It¹s also better to use Word¹s built-in editors in order to create an
> accessible document, such as the Table editor (for example).
>
> Cheers,
> Jonathan
>
> > >

From: Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Date: Mon, Mar 10 2014 7:50AM
Subject: Re: Can Word and Adobe ACrobat on a Mac make accessible/tagged PDF files?
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Hey guys

Thanks very much for all this feedback.
I will get back with the user, ask him to send me the Word file, then
I will apply some magic and export it to PDF myself.
I gather from the responses here that if some additional touch up is
required by Adobe Acrobat, he could apply those, even on a Mac.
Out of interest, are the Adobe ACrobat version numbers the same on a
Mac as those on Windows, i.e. is AA8 on a Mac same as AA for Windows
(in which case, yes, it is 3 versions out of date, and at least 2
versions out of ideal accessibility feature set).
Cheers and thanks again
-Birkir


On 3/10/14, Olaf Drümmer < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Hi Jonathan,
>
> I actually believe that what you write should be stated in a much more
> general fashion:
>
> the usual rules and best practices still apply!
>
> A Windows (or Word on Windows) user can neglect proper use of style sheets
> or other aspects as much as a Mac (or Word on Mac) user.
>
> Olaf
>
>
>
>
> Am 10 Mar 2014 um 14:12 schrieb Jonathan Metz < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >:
>
>> On 3/10/14, 6:18 AM, "Olaf Drümmer" wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>> - the only good news here is: even if an author creates a Microsoft Word
>>> file on Mac, not at all is lost - just launch Microsoft Word on a
>>> Windows
>>> operating system, and save to PDF from there.
>>
>> I would add that the original would still need to have had styles applied
>> to it in order for the tags to be generated appropriately. If the
>> original
>> author kept everything as OENormal¹ (i.e. The Style dialog box was never
>> opened), it won¹t be much more accessible.
>>
>> It¹s also better to use Word¹s built-in editors in order to create an
>> accessible document, such as the Table editor (for example).
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Jonathan
>>
>> >> >> >
> > > >


--
Work hard. Have fun. Make history.

From: Olaf Drümmer
Date: Mon, Mar 10 2014 7:59AM
Subject: Re: Can Word and Adobe ACrobat on a Mac make accessible/tagged PDF files?
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Hi Birkir,

yes, version numbers for Adobe Acrobat are the same on Mac and Windows, at least for more than 10 years.

Most of functionality has also been the same, though here and there there have been features only available on one platform (typically Windows) and not the other. Examples are:
- PDF Maker integration with Microsoft Office
- XPS to PDF conversion
- Outlook E-Mail to PDF conversion
- Designer for creating XFA forms
- certain 3D conversion features
and probably a few more I am not thinking of at this moment.

Olaf


Am 10 Mar 2014 um 14:50 schrieb "Birkir R. Gunnarsson" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >:

> Out of interest, are the Adobe ACrobat version numbers the same on a
> Mac as those on Windows

From: John E Brandt
Date: Mon, Mar 10 2014 12:04PM
Subject: Re: Can Word and Adobe Acrobat on a Macmakeaccessible/tagged PDF files?
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Karen,

I am not seeing the option to "create bookmarks" or "the radio button to
create them from Headings" in the Word for Mac 2011. I only see this in the
Window version of MS Word 2013.

For everyone interested in this thread...

On a lark, I tested to see if a Word for Mac file copied into Pages and then
saved as a PDF would produce a tagged PDF. The answer is no. I also created
a fresh Pages document with Heading/Title and some bullets and saved as a
PDF. When checked with Adobe Acrobat Pro on Windows, and the answer was
again no, the file had not produced a tagged PDF. So apparently neither Word
for Mac 2011 and Pages (v 5.1) are not capable of producing tagged PDFs.

The good news is that the latest version of Pages (v 5.1) does work with
VoiceOver on MacOSX Mavericks.

I had reported in the past that LibreOffice on the Mac was capable of
producing tagged PDF. Anyone know if this is still true?

~j

John E. Brandt
jebswebs: accessible and universal web design,
development and consultation
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
207-622-7937
Augusta, Maine, USA

@jebswebs

From: Elizabeth J. Pyatt
Date: Mon, Mar 10 2014 12:17PM
Subject: Re: Can Word and Adobe ACrobat on a Mac make accessible/tagged PDF files?
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FWIW - I have successfully created a tagged PDF when I ran it through Open Office (which is free). Therefore the block isn't exclusively on the OS X side. This process does work, but any image ALT text you did in Word 2014 is lost in Open Office. Fortunately Heading styles are preserved so could work for a basic document.
http://accessibility.psu.edu/microsoftofficepdfmac

Another option is to use a dual boot Mac which opens both OS X and Windows and use the Word for Windows version to create the tagged PDF. I have heard that if you have a Retina Mac with about 16 MB RAM, dual booting works well. BUT I recommend Office 2013 since Office 2010 has some bugs with exports of tagged PDF. You also have to install twice.

At this point, I would say the easiest option of posting a .DOC file alongside a PDF file. Some people are concerned about lack of copy protection in a Word file, so you could deploy it on a a request only basis. I will say though that Acrobat readily exports most PDFs as more accessible Word files, so the lack of editing capability is no longer an absolute.

Hope this helps.

Elizabeth

P.S. There is Adobe Acrobat XI but this works best after you get a tagged file. If you have to hand tag a long Word file, it will get tiresome very quickly.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Elizabeth J. Pyatt, Ph.D.
Instructional Designer
Teaching and Learning with Technology
Penn State University
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = , (814) 865-0805 or (814) 865-2030 (Main Office)

210 Rider Building (formerly Rider II)
227 W. Beaver Avenue
State College, PA 16801-4819
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From: Karlen Communications
Date: Mon, Mar 10 2014 12:31PM
Subject: Re: Can Word and Adobe Acrobat on aMacmakeaccessible/tagged PDF files?
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Thanks, I was hoping that if the dialog was there with the ability to create
Tags, that the option to add Bookmarks was there too. Am in the process of
migrating to a new MacBook Pro and haven't got Office for Mac 2011 on it
yet.

Cheers, Karen