E-mail List Archives

Search E-mail List Archives for

Number of posts in this thread: 14 (In chronological order)

From: Nusbaum, Christopher
Date: Thu, Jul 17 2014 6:35AM
Subject: Problem with Terms of Use Acceptance Form: Accessibility Issue or Operator Error?
No previous message | Next message →

Good Morning Listers,

As many of you are probably aware, I currently work as an intern in my local school system's IT department, specializing in supporting and maintaining our assistive technology as well as evaluating our in-house software for accessibility and providing feedback to the developers. I encountered a problem yesterday which I am not sure whether I should bring to the developers because I don't know whether to deem it an accessibility problem or an operator error.

There is a portion of our in-house Web portal which requires that each employee accept an "Acceptable Use Policy," or a Terms of Use agreement, before we are granted full access to the Internet. I first tried to bypass the agreement by pressing JAWS key + F5 and going directly to the accept button. However, something in the software recognizes when one has not read through the entire agreement and presents an error dialogue which asks the user to read through the entire document. When I did this, however, the system still gave me the same error. It seems that it relies on the position of the PC cursor to determine whether the full document has been read. When I down-arrowed through the agreement, the JAWS cursor moved, but the PC cursor did not move with it. I had to have one of the sighted techs move the PC cursor to the end of the scroll bar with the mouse in order for the acceptance to go through. Is there something I'm missing? Is there a way to move the PC cursor along w
ith the JAWS cursor? If not, I would consider this an accessibility concern. What, then, would your suggestion be to our developers to fix it? Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

Chris

Christopher A. (Chris) Nusbaum, Intern
Technology Services Department
Assistive Technology Program
Carroll County Public Schools
125 North Court Street
Westminster, MD 21157
Phone: (410) 751-3428
Cell: (443) 547-2409
Email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

From: Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Date: Thu, Jul 17 2014 7:19AM
Subject: Re: Problem with Terms of Use Acceptance Form: Accessibility Issue or Operator Error?
← Previous message | Next message →

This is an interesting issue.
I assume this is on a website, correct?
Have you, or can you, try to do the same thing using NVDA?
Did you try to get to the accept controls using the tabkey?
If using the mouse to scroll to the end of a scrollbar is the only
way, that is a clear violation of WCAG success criterion 2.1.1 (device
independence).
I am not sure what fancy web technologies could be used.
But at minimum the terms and conditions could be put on a different
page which you would have to activate, and the controls you need would
only appear after you at least navigate to that page.
I mean, that is the best they can do to ensure you read the TOS, after
all anybody with a mouse can scroll past the scrollbar and click 'I
Accept' without reading the text.
They can also simply ask two random questions from the TOS that you
would have to answer correctly in order to be able to continue with
the activation.
Basically, I do not think they need to babysit you like this, if you
go tu check "I have read and accepted the terms of this license"
checkbox, not having done so becomes your responsibility, not that of
the UI designers.
From that perspective, all they would have to do is to trust you and
not try to verify that you have read this lovely piece of literature.
Good luck, check this with NVDA and let us know if your experience is
any different.
-B


On 7/17/14, Nusbaum, Christopher < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Good Morning Listers,
>
> As many of you are probably aware, I currently work as an intern in my local
> school system's IT department, specializing in supporting and maintaining
> our assistive technology as well as evaluating our in-house software for
> accessibility and providing feedback to the developers. I encountered a
> problem yesterday which I am not sure whether I should bring to the
> developers because I don't know whether to deem it an accessibility problem
> or an operator error.
>
> There is a portion of our in-house Web portal which requires that each
> employee accept an "Acceptable Use Policy," or a Terms of Use agreement,
> before we are granted full access to the Internet. I first tried to bypass
> the agreement by pressing JAWS key + F5 and going directly to the accept
> button. However, something in the software recognizes when one has not read
> through the entire agreement and presents an error dialogue which asks the
> user to read through the entire document. When I did this, however, the
> system still gave me the same error. It seems that it relies on the position
> of the PC cursor to determine whether the full document has been read. When
> I down-arrowed through the agreement, the JAWS cursor moved, but the PC
> cursor did not move with it. I had to have one of the sighted techs move the
> PC cursor to the end of the scroll bar with the mouse in order for the
> acceptance to go through. Is there something I'm missing? Is there a way to
> move the PC cursor along w
> ith the JAWS cursor? If not, I would consider this an accessibility
> concern. What, then, would your suggestion be to our developers to fix it?
> Any help would be appreciated.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Chris
>
> Christopher A. (Chris) Nusbaum, Intern
> Technology Services Department
> Assistive Technology Program
> Carroll County Public Schools
> 125 North Court Street
> Westminster, MD 21157
> Phone: (410) 751-3428
> Cell: (443) 547-2409
> Email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>
> > > >


--
Work hard. Have fun. Make history.

From: Sailesh Panchang
Date: Thu, Jul 17 2014 7:40AM
Subject: Re: Problem with Terms of Use Acceptance Form: Accessibility Issue or Operator Error?
← Previous message | Next message →

Appears it is tracking the position of the mouse pointer.
A couple of years ago I had seen a page that would present a chat
window when a user moused in a particular section of the page that had
the Contact Us link. The window would not be displayed if one tabbed
around.
In your example, I suppose, they should register page down and such
from the keyboard too.
Right now you could flag it as an SC 2.1.1 issue under WCAG2.
Thanks,
Sailesh

On 7/17/14, Nusbaum, Christopher < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Good Morning Listers,
>
> As many of you are probably aware, I currently work as an intern in my local
> school system's IT department, specializing in supporting and maintaining
> our assistive technology as well as evaluating our in-house software for
> accessibility and providing feedback to the developers. I encountered a
> problem yesterday which I am not sure whether I should bring to the
> developers because I don't know whether to deem it an accessibility problem
> or an operator error.
>
> There is a portion of our in-house Web portal which requires that each
> employee accept an "Acceptable Use Policy," or a Terms of Use agreement,
> before we are granted full access to the Internet. I first tried to bypass
> the agreement by pressing JAWS key + F5 and going directly to the accept
> button. However, something in the software recognizes when one has not read
> through the entire agreement and presents an error dialogue which asks the
> user to read through the entire document. When I did this, however, the
> system still gave me the same error. It seems that it relies on the position
> of the PC cursor to determine whether the full document has been read. When
> I down-arrowed through the agreement, the JAWS cursor moved, but the PC
> cursor did not move with it. I had to have one of the sighted techs move the
> PC cursor to the end of the scroll bar with the mouse in order for the
> acceptance to go through. Is there something I'm missing? Is there a way to
> move the PC cursor along w
> ith the JAWS cursor? If not, I would consider this an accessibility
> concern. What, then, would your suggestion be to our developers to fix it?
> Any help would be appreciated.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Chris
>
> Christopher A. (Chris) Nusbaum, Intern
> Technology Services Department
> Assistive Technology Program
> Carroll County Public Schools
> 125 North Court Street
> Westminster, MD 21157
> Phone: (410) 751-3428
> Cell: (443) 547-2409
> Email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>
> > > >

From: Jon Avila
Date: Thu, Jul 17 2014 7:48AM
Subject: Re: Problem with Terms of Use Acceptance Form: Accessibility Issue or Operator Error?
← Previous message | Next message →

It could be that you need to scroll to the bottom of the ToS. This can sometimes be accomplished with the keyboard if the ToS is keyboard focusable. You could try pressing page down several times or end. These keys may need to be pressed in forms or focus mode or by passing the keys through the screen reader.

Jonathan

> On Jul 17, 2014, at 8:35 AM, "Nusbaum, Christopher" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> Good Morning Listers,
>
> As many of you are probably aware, I currently work as an intern in my local school system's IT department, specializing in supporting and maintaining our assistive technology as well as evaluating our in-house software for accessibility and providing feedback to the developers. I encountered a problem yesterday which I am not sure whether I should bring to the developers because I don't know whether to deem it an accessibility problem or an operator error.
>
> There is a portion of our in-house Web portal which requires that each employee accept an "Acceptable Use Policy," or a Terms of Use agreement, before we are granted full access to the Internet. I first tried to bypass the agreement by pressing JAWS key + F5 and going directly to the accept button. However, something in the software recognizes when one has not read through the entire agreement and presents an error dialogue which asks the user to read through the entire document. When I did this, however, the system still gave me the same error. It seems that it relies on the position of the PC cursor to determine whether the full document has been read. When I down-arrowed through the agreement, the JAWS cursor moved, but the PC cursor did not move with it. I had to have one of the sighted techs move the PC cursor to the end of the scroll bar with the mouse in order for the acceptance to go through. Is there something I'm missing? Is there a way to move the PC cursor along
w
> ith the JAWS cursor? If not, I would consider this an accessibility concern. What, then, would your suggestion be to our developers to fix it? Any help would be appreciated.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Chris
>
> Christopher A. (Chris) Nusbaum, Intern
> Technology Services Department
> Assistive Technology Program
> Carroll County Public Schools
> 125 North Court Street
> Westminster, MD 21157
> Phone: (410) 751-3428
> Cell: (443) 547-2409
> Email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>
> > >

From: Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Date: Thu, Jul 17 2014 7:58AM
Subject: Re: Problem with Terms of Use Acceptance Form: Accessibility Issue or Operator Error?
← Previous message | Next message →

Whatever keyboard only method works needs to be visibly documented on
this page too.
(sighted keyboard only users are often somewhat overlooked when we do
accessibility recommendations).
I do not think there is an obvious standard keyboard behavior way to
achieve this goal, so instructions need to be there, in form of text
or a tooltip.
If screen reader users need to turn their virtual focus off in order
for the keyboard behavior to register, that info needs to be part of
that same text or tooltip as well (though it can be vissibly hidden).


On 7/17/14, Jon Avila < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> It could be that you need to scroll to the bottom of the ToS. This can
> sometimes be accomplished with the keyboard if the ToS is keyboard
> focusable. You could try pressing page down several times or end. These
> keys may need to be pressed in forms or focus mode or by passing the keys
> through the screen reader.
>
> Jonathan
>
>> On Jul 17, 2014, at 8:35 AM, "Nusbaum, Christopher"
>> < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>>
>> Good Morning Listers,
>>
>> As many of you are probably aware, I currently work as an intern in my
>> local school system's IT department, specializing in supporting and
>> maintaining our assistive technology as well as evaluating our in-house
>> software for accessibility and providing feedback to the developers. I
>> encountered a problem yesterday which I am not sure whether I should bring
>> to the developers because I don't know whether to deem it an accessibility
>> problem or an operator error.
>>
>> There is a portion of our in-house Web portal which requires that each
>> employee accept an "Acceptable Use Policy," or a Terms of Use agreement,
>> before we are granted full access to the Internet. I first tried to bypass
>> the agreement by pressing JAWS key + F5 and going directly to the accept
>> button. However, something in the software recognizes when one has not
>> read through the entire agreement and presents an error dialogue which
>> asks the user to read through the entire document. When I did this,
>> however, the system still gave me the same error. It seems that it relies
>> on the position of the PC cursor to determine whether the full document
>> has been read. When I down-arrowed through the agreement, the JAWS cursor
>> moved, but the PC cursor did not move with it. I had to have one of the
>> sighted techs move the PC cursor to the end of the scroll bar with the
>> mouse in order for the acceptance to go through. Is there something I'm
>> missing? Is there a way to move the PC cursor along
> w
>> ith the JAWS cursor? If not, I would consider this an accessibility
>> concern. What, then, would your suggestion be to our developers to fix it?
>> Any help would be appreciated.
>>
>> Thanks in advance,
>>
>> Chris
>>
>> Christopher A. (Chris) Nusbaum, Intern
>> Technology Services Department
>> Assistive Technology Program
>> Carroll County Public Schools
>> 125 North Court Street
>> Westminster, MD 21157
>> Phone: (410) 751-3428
>> Cell: (443) 547-2409
>> Email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>
>> >> >> > > > >


--
Work hard. Have fun. Make history.

From: Nusbaum, Christopher
Date: Thu, Jul 17 2014 7:59AM
Subject: Re: Problem with Terms of Use Acceptance Form: Accessibility Issue or Operator Error?
← Previous message | Next message →

Birkir,

Thank you for this feedback. I will respond to each section individually.

BG: This is an interesting issue.
I assume this is on a website, correct?
CN: Correct. It is an encrypted Web site which can only be accessed after entering a username and password specific to one's MS Exchange profile with the school system, but a Web site nonetheless.
BG: Have you, or can you, try to do the same thing using NVDA?
CN: I have not yet tried this. However, the fact that it doesn't work with JAWS is a problem for our school system, as we use JAWS exclusively as our screen reader of choice. I know, I don't agree with this either, but the decision came from people way above my paygrade. However, I will try to install NVDA on my work computer and see if it works--assuming, of course, that the firewalls they've put in place will let me download it.
BG: Did you try to get to the accept controls using the tabkey?
CN: Yes, but the fact that there was still content in the scrollbar which hadn't been read through still prevented the activation from succeeding.
BG: If using the mouse to scroll to the end of a scrollbar is the only way, that is a clear violation of WCAG success criterion 2.1.1 (device independence).
CN: Where do I find this criteria? I may want to forward it to our devs.
BG: m not sure what fancy web technologies could be used.
But at minimum the terms and conditions could be put on a different page which you would have to activate, and the controls you need would only appear after you navigate to that page.
CN: They are already on a separate page which must be navigated to from the homepage of the Portal.
BG: Basically, I do not think they need to babysit you like this, if you go tu check "I have read and accepted the terms of this license"
checkbox, not having done so becomes your responsibility, not that of the UI designers.
From that perspective, all they would have to do is to trust you and not try to verify that you have read this lovely piece of literature.
CN: <Rant:> I hate to say this, but It's not that simple with the schools. My experience both as a student and an employee here has taught me that the school system does not trust anybody--not students, not teachers, not even IT people. No security or authentication stone is left unturned. If I suggested this to my boss, as much as I like working with her, she would probably tell me about some horrible experience with a former employee or some legal consequence from which they are trying to protect themselves. I agree with you, but I'm not sure my higher-ups would. <Rant end>

Thank you for your comments and suggestions. I will look into NVDA and see if it works.

Chris

Christopher A. (Chris) Nusbaum, Intern
Technology Services Department
Assistive Technology Program
Carroll County Public Schools
Phone: (410) 751-3428
Cell: (443) 547-2409
Email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

From: Nusbaum, Christopher
Date: Thu, Jul 17 2014 8:09AM
Subject: Re: Problem with Terms of Use Acceptance Form:Accessibility Issue or Operator Error?
← Previous message | Next message →

Jonathan,

It doesn't look as though the TOS are keyboard focusable, if I'm understanding it correctly. It seems that it's tracking the movement of the mouse pointer or the PC cursor through the scrollbar. Furthermore, the scrollbar itself is not in a form field; it appears in plain text, so I don't think I would be able to put JAWS in forms mode.

Christopher A. (Chris) Nusbaum, Intern
Technology Services Department
Assistive Technology Program
Carroll County Public Schools
Phone: (410) 751-3428
Cell: (443) 547-2409
Email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

From: Patrick H. Lauke
Date: Thu, Jul 17 2014 8:11AM
Subject: Re: Problem with Terms of Use Acceptance Form: Accessibility Issue or Operator Error?
← Previous message | Next message →

On 17/07/2014 13:35, Nusbaum, Christopher wrote:
> What, then, would your suggestion be to our developers to fix it? Any help would be appreciated.

To be a bit blunt, my suggestion would be to remove any scripting that
is trying to ensure that everything was "read". Even without doing any
user testing I can guarantee that the vast majority of users did not, in
fact, read the terms, but merely scrolled all the way to the bottom
quickly. It's an inconvenience to all users, in addition to presenting a
barrier to screen reader users in its current implementation.

There may have been some illusion on the part of the developers/their
managers that it makes it more legally binding as some sort of
confirmation that users did have to actively engage with those terms and
conditions, but it's flimsy at best (but then, I'm no lawyer).

Rewording the AUP/ToU agreement to be an assumed opt-in (making sure it
says clearly that "By proceeding you are accepting these terms" and
having the button to continue again clearly state "I agree to the
above..." or similar should have the same "legal" weight.

P
--
Patrick H. Lauke

www.splintered.co.uk | https://github.com/patrickhlauke
http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | http://redux.deviantart.com
twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke

From: Nusbaum, Christopher
Date: Thu, Jul 17 2014 8:20AM
Subject: Re: Problem with Terms of Use Acceptance Form: Accessibility Issue or Operator Error?
← Previous message | Next message →

I agree. I'm no lawyer either, but I thought ignorance of the law was not a sound defense. If this is true, accepting the AUP without reading it and then claiming you didn't know what it said if you violate it is your responsibility.

Christopher A. (Chris) Nusbaum, Intern
Technology Services Department
Assistive Technology Program
Carroll County Public Schools
Phone: (410) 751-3428
Cell: (443) 547-2409
Email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

From: Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Date: Thu, Jul 17 2014 8:36AM
Subject: Re: Problem with Terms of Use Acceptance Form: Accessibility Issue or Operator Error?
← Previous message | Next message →

Chris

WCAG 2.1.1
http://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/keyboard-operation-keyboard-operable.html
(basic level A requirement of WCAG, also keyboard accessibility is
part of Section 508).

This is a clear violation.

You could suggest to your boss that the school creates a set of 10 to
20 questions with multiple choice answers based on the policy.
Make it mandatory for every user to read the policy and answer at
least 80% of the questions correctly before being given the permition
to continue.
This kind of policy is often implimented within large corporations,
and if the school system is so worried about it, this would be a way
to ensure that users really read the TOS.
What the website now presents is just a way to verify that the user
has a mouse (i.e. is probably not disabled) and knows how to scroll.

It is discriminatory and does not really increase the probability that
people read the text they are supposed to read.

But I know one has to be careful in the quagmire of legal
responsibility and politics,, on this list we have the freedom to be
awfully blunt sometimes,.
But what is clear, and definitely tell your boss that, is that this
practice is discriminatory, particularly against people with
disabilities, not just screen readers but people with mobility
impairments as well, possibly people working with a large screen
magnification.
This issue shoul not be overlooked.

Good luck, let us know if we can help you any further.
-Birkir


On 7/17/14, Nusbaum, Christopher < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> I agree. I'm no lawyer either, but I thought ignorance of the law was not a
> sound defense. If this is true, accepting the AUP without reading it and
> then claiming you didn't know what it said if you violate it is your
> responsibility.
>
> Christopher A. (Chris) Nusbaum, Intern
> Technology Services Department
> Assistive Technology Program
> Carroll County Public Schools
> Phone: (410) 751-3428
> Cell: (443) 547-2409
> Email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>
>
>

From: Devarshi Pant
Date: Thu, Jul 17 2014 8:58AM
Subject: Re: Problem with Terms of Use Acceptance Form: Accessibility Issue or Operator Error?
← Previous message | Next message →

"I had to have one of the sighted techs move the PC cursor to the end of
the scroll bar with the mouse in order for the acceptance to go through. Is
there something I'm missing? Is there a way to move the PC cursor along
with the JAWS cursor?"

>>Apologies if you have already tried this, but this is what I might do:
1. Press Ins Z twice until it says something like 'the virtual cursor will
be turned off for all applications.'
2. Open the page where you are having issues and press the 'home' key
followed by the 'end' key, or up / down arrow keys.

-devarshi
On Jul 17, 2014 8:36 AM, "Nusbaum, Christopher" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:

> Good Morning Listers,
>
> As many of you are probably aware, I currently work as an intern in my
> local school system's IT department, specializing in supporting and
> maintaining our assistive technology as well as evaluating our in-house
> software for accessibility and providing feedback to the developers. I
> encountered a problem yesterday which I am not sure whether I should bring
> to the developers because I don't know whether to deem it an accessibility
> problem or an operator error.
>
> There is a portion of our in-house Web portal which requires that each
> employee accept an "Acceptable Use Policy," or a Terms of Use agreement,
> before we are granted full access to the Internet. I first tried to bypass
> the agreement by pressing JAWS key + F5 and going directly to the accept
> button. However, something in the software recognizes when one has not read
> through the entire agreement and presents an error dialogue which asks the
> user to read through the entire document. When I did this, however, the
> system still gave me the same error. It seems that it relies on the
> position of the PC cursor to determine whether the full document has been
> read. When I down-arrowed through the agreement, the JAWS cursor moved, but
> the PC cursor did not move with it. I had to have one of the sighted techs
> move the PC cursor to the end of the scroll bar with the mouse in order for
> the acceptance to go through. Is there something I'm missing? Is there a
> way to move the PC cursor along w
> ith the JAWS cursor? If not, I would consider this an accessibility
> concern. What, then, would your suggestion be to our developers to fix it?
> Any help would be appreciated.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Chris
>
> Christopher A. (Chris) Nusbaum, Intern
> Technology Services Department
> Assistive Technology Program
> Carroll County Public Schools
> 125 North Court Street
> Westminster, MD 21157
> Phone: (410) 751-3428
> Cell: (443) 547-2409
> Email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>
> > > >

From: Nusbaum, Christopher
Date: Thu, Jul 17 2014 9:37AM
Subject: Re: Problem with Terms of Use Acceptance Form: Accessibility Issue or Operator Error?
← Previous message | Next message →

Thanks, I will try that.

-CN

Christopher A. (Chris) Nusbaum, Intern
Technology Services Department
Assistive Technology Program
Carroll County Public Schools
Phone: (410) 751-3428
Cell: (443) 547-2409
Email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

From: David Farough
Date: Thu, Jul 17 2014 9:42AM
Subject: Re: Problem with Terms of Use Acceptance Form: Accessibility Issue or Operator Error?
← Previous message | Next message →

I agree with Birkir:

A series of questions would at least insure that some aspects of the
policy was read and more importantly understood. Given that this is a
School Board policy and that children might actually be the target, I
wonder whether legal ramifications could apply.

David Farough
coordonateur de l'accessibilité
/Application Accessibility Coordinator
Direction des services d'information technologiques /
Information Technology Services Directorate
Commission de la fonction publique /Public Service Commission
Courriel / Email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Tél / Tel. (819) 420-8418


>
Ce courriel est destiné exclusivement au destinataire mentionné en titre
et peut contenir de l'information privilégiée, confidentielle ou
soustraite à la communication aux termes des lois applicables. Toute
divulgation non autorisée, toute reproduction ou réacheminement est
interdit. Si vous n'êtes pas le destinataire de ce courriel, ou n'êtes
pas autorisé par le destinataire visé, ou encore, si vous l'avez reçu
par erreur, veuillez le mentionner immédiatement à l'expéditeur et
supprimer le courriel et les copies.

>
This e-mail message is intended for the named recipient(s) and may
contain information that is privileged, confidential and/or exempt from
disclosure under applicable law. Unauthorized disclosure, copying or
re-transmission is prohibited. If you are not a named recipient or not
authorized by the named recipient(s), or if you have received this
e-mail in error, then please notify the sender immediately and delete
the message and any copies.

From: Lucy Greco
Date: Thu, Jul 17 2014 10:44AM
Subject: Re: Problem with Terms of Use Acceptance Form: Accessibility Issue or Operator Error?
← Previous message | No next message

Hello:
Is there a reason you chose to move to the button with the jaws curser
and not just tab to it through the terms. I am wondering if you can even
focus on the turns to control if it sees that you read it or not.

Lucia Greco
Web Accessibility Evangelist
IST - Architecture, Platforms, and Integration
University of California, Berkeley
(510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
Follow me on twitter @accessaces