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Thread: Quick Response Needed - DL or UL?
Number of posts in this thread: 8 (In chronological order)
From: MEJ - Beth Sullivan
Date: Thu, Apr 23 2015 2:11PM
Subject: Quick Response Needed - DL or UL?
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Hello,
I have a situation where the data warrants a DL, but I have heard DL, DD,
DT's aren't the happiest for screen reader? What are your thoughts? ULs
better?
Thank you,
Beth
From: chaals
Date: Thu, Apr 23 2015 3:50PM
Subject: Re: Quick Response Needed - DL or UL?
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- beth.mejsullivan@
23.04.2015, 22:11, "MEJ - Beth Sullivan" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >:
> Hello,
>
> I have a situation where the data warrants a DL, but I have heard DL, DD,
> DT's aren't the happiest for screen reader? What are your thoughts? ULs
> better?
Seems (asking an expert sitting next to me - thanks Léonie) that screen readers don't do anything useful with the semantics. On the other hand, visually they work better, clarifying what is happening.
Assuming you don't want to use a heading structure instead - and it may well be overkill for your situation, effectively needing extra styling work, etc. - it would still make sense to use a DL - there doesn't seem to be a harmful impact.
But filing a bug against screen readers also seems useful.
cheers
--
Charles McCathie Nevile - web standards - CTO Office, Yandex
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = - - - Find more at http://yandex.com
From: MEJ - Beth Sullivan
Date: Fri, Apr 24 2015 8:08AM
Subject: Re: Quick Response Needed - DL or UL?
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Thank you, I will do!
It's a shame. I've always thought that this semantic structure was a bit
under appreciated.
Have a great one,
Beth
On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 at 5:50 PM, < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> - beth.mejsullivan@
>
> 23.04.2015, 22:11, "MEJ - Beth Sullivan" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >:
> > Hello,
> >
> > I have a situation where the data warrants a DL, but I have heard DL, DD,
> > DT's aren't the happiest for screen reader? What are your thoughts? ULs
> > better?
>
> Seems (asking an expert sitting next to me - thanks Léonie) that screen
> readers don't do anything useful with the semantics. On the other hand,
> visually they work better, clarifying what is happening.
>
> Assuming you don't want to use a heading structure instead - and it may
> well be overkill for your situation, effectively needing extra styling
> work, etc. - it would still make sense to use a DL - there doesn't seem to
> be a harmful impact.
>
> But filing a bug against screen readers also seems useful.
>
> cheers
>
> --
> Charles McCathie Nevile - web standards - CTO Office, Yandex
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = - - - Find more at http://yandex.com
> > > > >
From: Jared Smith
Date: Fri, Apr 24 2015 8:20AM
Subject: Re: Quick Response Needed - DL or UL?
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On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 at 3:50 PM, < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> screen readers don't do anything useful with the semantics.
This isn't accurate. I believe that all major screen readers will,
with default settings, indicate the presence of a list and the number
of list items. Most also indicate the type of list (ul, ol, or dl).
They will also allow navigation by list items. Some also indicate list
nesting levels. In fact, I can't think of anything useful that screen
readers DON'T do with list semantics.
There is a potential issue with definition lists in most screen
readers where they will identify the number of items incorrectly -
most seem to count each <dt> and <dd> as separate items. I don't see
this as an argument to not use them.
Jared
From: chaals
Date: Fri, Apr 24 2015 9:55AM
Subject: Re: Quick Response Needed - DL or UL?
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- jared@
I think we're in violent agreement - I was a bit brief…
24.04.2015, 16:20, "Jared Smith" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >:
> On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 at 3:50 PM, Â < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>> Â screen readers don't do anything useful with the semantics.
>
> This isn't accurate. I believe that all major screen readers will,
> with default settings, indicate the presence of a list and the number
> of list items. Most also indicate the type of list (ul, ol, or dl).
> They will also allow navigation by list items. Some also indicate list
> nesting levels. In fact, I can't think of anything useful that screen
> readers DON'T do with list semantics.
Well, failing to identify the dt/dd difference is what I meant (and what Léonie told me)...
> There is a potential issue with definition lists in most screen
> readers where they will identify the number of items incorrectly -
> most seem to count each <dt> and <dd> as separate items. I don't see
> this as an argument to not use them.
Absolutely agreed - and there are lots of other things (like default visual stylesheets) that make it a good idea to use them when relevant.
cheers
--
Charles McCathie Nevile - web standards - CTO Office, Yandex
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = - - - Find more at http://yandex.com
From: John Hicks
Date: Fri, Apr 24 2015 10:22AM
Subject: Re: Quick Response Needed - DL or UL?
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Hello all
I am wondering in what circumstances a "heading structure" would be an
appropriate replacement for a list (especially a definition list). I have
the opposite problem at the moment with a client who used a DL to implement
what should have been a list with a header (an H2 for the list and then a
plain UL), ... they used a DL with DD for the header and then a nested UL
in the DT ... they did this for the site-map , which is on the bottom of
every page.
This all made me think of a list with two items, you might have seen before:
<ol>
<li>face</li>
<li>palm</li>
</ol>
John
2015-04-23 23:50 GMT+02:00 < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >:
> - beth.mejsullivan@
>
> 23.04.2015, 22:11, "MEJ - Beth Sullivan" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >:
> > Hello,
> >
> > I have a situation where the data warrants a DL, but I have heard DL, DD,
> > DT's aren't the happiest for screen reader? What are your thoughts? ULs
> > better?
>
> Seems (asking an expert sitting next to me - thanks Léonie) that screen
> readers don't do anything useful with the semantics. On the other hand,
> visually they work better, clarifying what is happening.
>
> Assuming you don't want to use a heading structure instead - and it may
> well be overkill for your situation, effectively needing extra styling
> work, etc. - it would still make sense to use a DL - there doesn't seem to
> be a harmful impact.
>
> But filing a bug against screen readers also seems useful.
>
> cheers
>
> --
> Charles McCathie Nevile - web standards - CTO Office, Yandex
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = - - - Find more at http://yandex.com
> > > > >
From: Bryan Garaventa
Date: Fri, Apr 24 2015 10:52AM
Subject: Re: Quick Response Needed - DL or UL?
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> I am wondering in what circumstances a "heading structure" would be an
> appropriate replacement for a list (especially a definition list). I have
> the opposite problem at the moment with a client who used a DL to implement what should have been a list with a header (an H2 for the list and then a plain UL), ... they used a DL with DD for the header and then a > nested UL in the DT ... they did this for the site-map , which is on the bottom of every page.
ARIA can be used to help this type of situation, even if the markup in this case is slightly off.
DL tags can be used effectively for formatting purposes without harming accessibility. You can test an example of this in the Change Log section at
http://whatsock.com/training/#hd37
Where all of the change log notes start with the date within a DT element, and the explanation is within a DD. Each of the DT elements include role="heading" + aria-level="3" to change the role of the element in the Accessibility Tree to a heading with a level of 3.
If there is a need to remove the 'definition' feedback for screen reader users, you can add role="presentation to the DL element tag, and this will nullify the construct in the Accessibility Tree so that it acts more like a Div, in order to rely more on the embedded structures.
From: Bryan Garaventa
Date: Fri, Apr 24 2015 10:54AM
Subject: Re: Quick Response Needed - DL or UL?
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Apologies, the direct link is at
http://whatsock.com/training/#hd38