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Thread: opening new browser windows?
Number of posts in this thread: 27 (In chronological order)
From: Mark Bryant
Date: Thu, Nov 06 2003 12:41PM
Subject: opening new browser windows?
No previous message | Next message →
What is the proper way to handle a link that when clicked, opens a new
browser window (target=_blank)? Does it need to be addressed for
accessibility and if so, why and how?
I have read in the WAI about Checkpoint 10.1 "Until user agents allow users
to turn off spawned windows, do not cause pop-ups or other windows to appear
and do not change the current window without informing the user. [Priority
2]".
Seems like this only applies to server spawned windows and not user
initiated clicking?
TIA,
-mark
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From: webmaster
Date: Thu, Nov 06 2003 1:02PM
Subject: re: opening new browser windows?
← Previous message | Next message →
I think the guideline is quite clearly worded "do not cause pop-ups or other windows to appear"
Any new window is bad.
>> What is the proper way to handle a link that when clicked, opens a new
>> browser window (target=_blank)? Does it need to be addressed for
>> accessibility and if so, why and how?
>> I have read in the WAI about Checkpoint 10.1 "Until user agents allow
>> users
>> to turn off spawned windows, do not cause pop-ups or other windows to
>> appear
>> and do not change the current window without informing the user. [Priority
>> 2]".
>> Seems like this only applies to server spawned windows and not user
>> initiated clicking?
>> TIA,
>> -mark
>> ----
>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, suspend, or view list archives,
>> visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
Karl Groves - Certified Master CIW
http://www.karlcore.com
AOL, MSN, YAHOO Users IM me at - "KarlCore"
Visit my favorite places:
Baltimore Punk & Hardcore
http://www.baltimorepunk.com
Punk Rock Worldwide
http://www.punkrockworldwide.com
United States Neapolitan Mastiff Club's Rescue Program
http://www.neorescue.org
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From: Jukka K. Korpela
Date: Thu, Nov 06 2003 1:05PM
Subject: Re: opening new browser windows?
← Previous message | Next message →
On Thu, 6 Nov 2003, Mark Bryant wrote:
> What is the proper way to handle a link that when clicked, opens a new
> browser window (target=_blank)?
To refrain from using them.
> I have read in the WAI about Checkpoint 10.1 "Until user agents allow users
> to turn off spawned windows, do not cause pop-ups or other windows to appear
> and do not change the current window without informing the user. [Priority
> 2]".
It is ambiguous, isn't it?
> Seems like this only applies to server spawned windows and not user
> initiated clicking?
The target="_blank" attribute means opening a new window (without
explicitly informing the user). Either omit it, or at least inform the
user (causing some distraction).
--
Jukka "Yucca" Korpela, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
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From: Mark Bryant
Date: Thu, Nov 06 2003 1:11PM
Subject: Re: opening new browser windows?
← Previous message | Next message →
I disagree about the clearness. "Any new window is bad" is not very
helpful. Can you elaborate?
-mark
----- Original Message -----
From: < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >; < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 3:03 PM
Subject: re: opening new browser windows?
> I think the guideline is quite clearly worded "do not cause pop-ups or
other windows to appear"
> Any new window is bad.
>
>
>
>
> >> What is the proper way to handle a link that when clicked, opens a
new
> >> browser window (target=_blank)? Does it need to be addressed for
> >> accessibility and if so, why and how?
>
> >> I have read in the WAI about Checkpoint 10.1 "Until user agents
allow
> >> users
> >> to turn off spawned windows, do not cause pop-ups or other windows
to
> >> appear
> >> and do not change the current window without informing the user.
[Priority
> >> 2]".
>
> >> Seems like this only applies to server spawned windows and not user
> >> initiated clicking?
>
> >> TIA,
> >> -mark
>
>
>
>
>
> >> ----
> >> To subscribe, unsubscribe, suspend, or view list archives,
> >> visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Karl Groves - Certified Master CIW
> http://www.karlcore.com
>
> AOL, MSN, YAHOO Users IM me at - "KarlCore"
>
>
> Visit my favorite places:
>
> Baltimore Punk & Hardcore
> http://www.baltimorepunk.com
>
>
> Punk Rock Worldwide
> http://www.punkrockworldwide.com
>
>
> United States Neapolitan Mastiff Club's Rescue Program
> http://www.neorescue.org
>
>
>
> ----
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, suspend, or view list archives,
> visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>
----
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From: julian.rickards
Date: Thu, Nov 06 2003 1:12PM
Subject: RE: opening new browser windows?
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It applies to scripted open windows (ie JavaScript) or HTML coded windows,
target="_blank".
The first point is not to open new windows (whatever the method) but if you
must, then please inform the user first using either the title element or
information in the link such as:
<a href="webpage.html" title="Link opens in new window">link text</a>
or
<a href="webpage.html">Link text (link opens in new window)</a>
The problem with the first option is that not all JAWS users will "read" the
title text - I believe they have to ask for it so the second option would
guarantee that all of them will be alerted to the new window.
This rule also applies to <meta http-equiv="refresh"> where this meta tag
will redirect a user to another page after so many seconds (0 seconds to how
ever many you specify). Apparently, JAWS users will be informed that they
have been presented with a new page and then it is gone and replaced by
another. In this case, if, for example, the webpage the visitor is looking
for has been moved, provide a link instead so the user can choose to move on
at their own request.
Jules
---------------------------------------------------------
Julian Rickards
Digital Publications Distribution Coordinator
Publications Services Section
Ontario Ministry of Northern Development and Mines
Phone: (705) 670-5608
Fax: (705) 670-5690
>
From: Mark Bryant
Date: Thu, Nov 06 2003 1:14PM
Subject: Re: opening new browser windows?
← Previous message | Next message →
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jukka K. Korpela" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 3:00 PM
Subject: Re: opening new browser windows?
> On Thu, 6 Nov 2003, Mark Bryant wrote:
>
> > What is the proper way to handle a link that when clicked, opens a new
> > browser window (target=_blank)?
>
> To refrain from using them.
why refrain from using them?
>
> > I have read in the WAI about Checkpoint 10.1 "Until user agents allow
users
> > to turn off spawned windows, do not cause pop-ups or other windows to
appear
> > and do not change the current window without informing the user.
[Priority
> > 2]".
>
> It is ambiguous, isn't it?
>
> > Seems like this only applies to server spawned windows and not user
> > initiated clicking?
>
> The target="_blank" attribute means opening a new window (without
> explicitly informing the user). Either omit it, or at least inform the
> user (causing some distraction).
why does a user need to be informed? What is the accessibility issue?
>
> --
> Jukka "Yucca" Korpela, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
>
>
> ----
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, suspend, or view list archives,
> visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>
----
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From: julian.rickards
Date: Thu, Nov 06 2003 1:22PM
Subject: RE: opening new browser windows?
← Previous message | Next message →
The issue is that the "back button is broken". We, who can see that new
window has been spawned can close the new window but this visual clue is not
provided, or at least not as clearly, to those using screen readers. The
back button will not return the user to the previous page. Furthermore, in
the case where the <meta> refresh has been used, the back button will take
the user back to the refresh page which will return them to the page they
just came from - even for the visual users, this can be annoying and we have
to resort to the history list to skip over the previous page.
---------------------------------------------------------
Julian Rickards
Digital Publications Distribution Coordinator
Publications Services Section
Ontario Ministry of Northern Development and Mines
Phone: (705) 670-5608
Fax: (705) 670-5690
>
From: Jukka K. Korpela
Date: Thu, Nov 06 2003 1:24PM
Subject: Re: opening new browser windows?
← Previous message | Next message →
On Thu, 6 Nov 2003, Mark Bryant wrote:
> why refrain from using them?
For the reasons explained in the WAI guidelines.
> why does a user need to be informed? What is the accessibility issue?
Did you actually read the WAI guidelines? There's little point in
discussing the finer details before you know what the issue is.
--
Jukka "Yucca" Korpela, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
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From: Jared Smith
Date: Thu, Nov 06 2003 1:28PM
Subject: Re: opening new browser windows?
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I would argue with the idea that all pop-up windows are bad. There are
many cases when providing content in an external window could be both
useful and beneficial to users. I do agree that in all cases, the
user should be alerted to the fact that the link is opening in a new
window. WebAIM has made the decision with our recent redesign to open
links to content external from our site in a new browser window. We
are doing so with javascript, though the link acts normally if
javascript in turned off. You can see examples of our approach at
http://webaim.org/ The links to the Wave open in a new window.
Jared Smith
WebAIM (Web Accessibility In Mind)
Center for Persons with Disabilities
Utah State University
***************
On Thursday, November 06, 2003 you sent:
MB> What is the proper way to handle a link that when clicked, opens a new
MB> browser window (target=_blank)? Does it need to be addressed for
MB> accessibility and if so, why and how?
MB> I have read in the WAI about Checkpoint 10.1 "Until user agents allow users
MB> to turn off spawned windows, do not cause pop-ups or other windows to appear
MB> and do not change the current window without informing the user. [Priority
MB> 2]".
MB> Seems like this only applies to server spawned windows and not user
MB> initiated clicking?
MB> TIA,
MB> -mark
***************
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From: webmaster
Date: Thu, Nov 06 2003 1:36PM
Subject: re[2]: opening new browser windows?
← Previous message | Next message →
*Needing* to open new windows means there is an Information Architecture problem, IMO.
>> I would argue with the idea that all pop-up windows are bad. There are
>> many cases when providing content in an external window could be both
>> useful and beneficial to users. I do agree that in all cases, the
>> user should be alerted to the fact that the link is opening in a new
>> window. WebAIM has made the decision with our recent redesign to open
>> links to content external from our site in a new browser window. We
>> are doing so with javascript, though the link acts normally if
>> javascript in turned off. You can see examples of our approach at
>> http://webaim.org/ The links to the Wave open in a new window.
>> Jared Smith
>> WebAIM (Web Accessibility In Mind)
>> Center for Persons with Disabilities
>> Utah State University
>> ***************
>> On Thursday, November 06, 2003 you sent:
>> MB> What is the proper way to handle a link that when clicked, opens a new
>> MB> browser window (target=_blank)? Does it need to be addressed for
>> MB> accessibility and if so, why and how?
>> MB> I have read in the WAI about Checkpoint 10.1 "Until user agents allow
>> users
>> MB> to turn off spawned windows, do not cause pop-ups or other windows to
>> appear
>> MB> and do not change the current window without informing the user.
>> [Priority
>> MB> 2]".
>> MB> Seems like this only applies to server spawned windows and not user
>> MB> initiated clicking?
>> MB> TIA,
>> MB> -mark
>> ***************
>> ----
>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, suspend, or view list archives,
>> visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
Karl Groves - Certified Master CIW
http://www.karlcore.com
AOL, MSN, YAHOO Users IM me at - "KarlCore"
Visit my favorite places:
Baltimore Punk & Hardcore
http://www.baltimorepunk.com
Punk Rock Worldwide
http://www.punkrockworldwide.com
United States Neapolitan Mastiff Club's Rescue Program
http://www.neorescue.org
----
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visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
From: webmaster
Date: Thu, Nov 06 2003 1:40PM
Subject: re[2]: opening new browser windows?
← Previous message | Next message →
No. I cannot elaborate. Please do not mistake my tone, but I really do mean exactly what I've said.
Any new window is bad.
What is the purpose for a new window?
Potential answers:
1) "Keep them in my site" - Why? Because they can't find their way back? To annoy them by making them close new windows?
2) "For supplemental content" - This is clearly an Information Architecture problem. I have seen one supplemental window that I thought was well done - a glossary of terms on a mortgage site.
>> I disagree about the clearness. "Any new window is bad" is not very
>> helpful. Can you elaborate?
>> -mark
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> To: < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >; < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 3:03 PM
>> Subject: re: opening new browser windows?
>> > I think the guideline is quite clearly worded "do not cause pop-ups or
>> other windows to appear"
>> > Any new window is bad.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > >> What is the proper way to handle a link that when clicked, opens a
>> new
>> > >> browser window (target=_blank)? Does it need to be addressed for
>> > >> accessibility and if so, why and how?
>> >
>> > >> I have read in the WAI about Checkpoint 10.1 "Until user agents
>> allow
>> > >> users
>> > >> to turn off spawned windows, do not cause pop-ups or other windows
>> to
>> > >> appear
>> > >> and do not change the current window without informing the user.
>> [Priority
>> > >> 2]".
>> >
>> > >> Seems like this only applies to server spawned windows and not
>> user
>> > >> initiated clicking?
>> >
>> > >> TIA,
>> > >> -mark
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > >> ----
>> > >> To subscribe, unsubscribe, suspend, or view list archives,
>> > >> visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Karl Groves - Certified Master CIW
>> > http://www.karlcore.com
>> >
>> > AOL, MSN, YAHOO Users IM me at - "KarlCore"
>> >
>> >
>> > Visit my favorite places:
>> >
>> > Baltimore Punk & Hardcore
>> > http://www.baltimorepunk.com
>> >
>> >
>> > Punk Rock Worldwide
>> > http://www.punkrockworldwide.com
>> >
>> >
>> > United States Neapolitan Mastiff Club's Rescue Program
>> > http://www.neorescue.org
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ----
>> > To subscribe, unsubscribe, suspend, or view list archives,
>> > visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>> >
>> ----
>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, suspend, or view list archives,
>> visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
Karl Groves - Certified Master CIW
http://www.karlcore.com
AOL, MSN, YAHOO Users IM me at - "KarlCore"
Visit my favorite places:
Baltimore Punk & Hardcore
http://www.baltimorepunk.com
Punk Rock Worldwide
http://www.punkrockworldwide.com
United States Neapolitan Mastiff Club's Rescue Program
http://www.neorescue.org
----
To subscribe, unsubscribe, suspend, or view list archives,
visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
From: John Britsios
Date: Thu, Nov 06 2003 1:48PM
Subject: Re: re[2]: opening new browser windows?
← Previous message | Next message →
Actually you should not force links to open in a new window or popups (such
as with the "target" attribute or with JavaScript).
Changing the current window or popping up new windows can be very
disorienting to users who cannot see that this has happened.
As you might also know, JavaScript is not supported by all browsers and some
users disable it. When JavaScript is used, it should not be relied upon.
Another fact is, that if you markup with XHTML Strict, the "target=_blank"
is not supported!
If you absolutely must open a link in a new window, explicitly warn the user
with a clear indication that the page will open in a different window.
Provide a title attribute on the anchor tag with a description indicating
that the link opens a new window; for example:
<a href="<A href="http://www.eypd2003.org">http://www.eypd2003.org"
target="_blank" title="Link opens in new window.">European Year of People
with Disabilities 2003 (new window)</a>
If you want to build an accessible pop-up window, add the code below within
the head tags of your HTML document:
<script type="text/javascript">
var newWindow = null;
function closeWin(){
if (newWindow != null){
if(!newWindow.closed)
newWindow.close();
}
}
function popUpWin(url, type, strWidth, strHeight){
closeWin();
if (type == "fullScreen" ){
strWidth = screen.availWidth - 10;
strHeight = screen.availHeight - 160;
}
var tools="";
if (type == "standard" || type == "fullScreen" ) tools "resizable,toolbar=yes,location=yes,scrollbars=yes,menubar=yes,width="+strWi
dth+",height="+strHeight+",top=0,left=0";
if (type == "console" ) tools "resizable,toolbar=no,location=no,scrollbars=no,width="+strWidth+",height="+
strHeight+",left=0,top=0";
newWindow = window.open(url, 'newWin', tools);
newWindow.focus();
}
</script>
Above script source: http://www.accessify.com
Then add your link in the body of your document as below:
<a href="<A href="http://www.w3.org/WAI/">http://www.w3.org/WAI/"
onclick="popUpWin(this.href,'standard',640,480);return false;"
onkeypress="popUpWin(this.href,'standard',640,480);return false;"
title="Link open's in a new window">Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI)</a>
Example see here: http://www.webnauts.net/popup.html
Test this turning off JavaScript to see how it works!
Further reading:
Not opening new windows:
http://diveintoaccessibility.org/day_16_not_opening_new_windows.html
Use interim solutions: http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10/#gl-interim-accessibility
Opening a link in a new window:
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-validator/2002Apr/0100.html
----- Original Message -----
From: < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >; < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 9:43 PM
Subject: re[2]: opening new browser windows?
> No. I cannot elaborate. Please do not mistake my tone, but I really do
mean exactly what I've said.
> Any new window is bad.
>
> What is the purpose for a new window?
> Potential answers:
> 1) "Keep them in my site" - Why? Because they can't find their way back?
To annoy them by making them close new windows?
> 2) "For supplemental content" - This is clearly an Information
Architecture problem. I have seen one supplemental window that I thought
was well done - a glossary of terms on a mortgage site.
>
>
>
> >> I disagree about the clearness. "Any new window is bad" is not very
> >> helpful. Can you elaborate?
>
> >> -mark
>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> >> To: < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >; < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> >> Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 3:03 PM
> >> Subject: re: opening new browser windows?
>
>
> >> > I think the guideline is quite clearly worded "do not cause
pop-ups or
> >> other windows to appear"
> >> > Any new window is bad.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > >> What is the proper way to handle a link that when clicked,
opens a
> >> new
> >> > >> browser window (target=_blank)? Does it need to be
addressed for
> >> > >> accessibility and if so, why and how?
> >> >
> >> > >> I have read in the WAI about Checkpoint 10.1 "Until user
agents
> >> allow
> >> > >> users
> >> > >> to turn off spawned windows, do not cause pop-ups or other
windows
> >> to
> >> > >> appear
> >> > >> and do not change the current window without informing the
user.
> >> [Priority
> >> > >> 2]".
> >> >
> >> > >> Seems like this only applies to server spawned windows and
not
> >> user
> >> > >> initiated clicking?
> >> >
> >> > >> TIA,
> >> > >> -mark
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > >> ----
> >> > >> To subscribe, unsubscribe, suspend, or view list archives,
> >> > >> visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Karl Groves - Certified Master CIW
> >> > http://www.karlcore.com
> >> >
> >> > AOL, MSN, YAHOO Users IM me at - "KarlCore"
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Visit my favorite places:
> >> >
> >> > Baltimore Punk & Hardcore
> >> > http://www.baltimorepunk.com
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Punk Rock Worldwide
> >> > http://www.punkrockworldwide.com
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > United States Neapolitan Mastiff Club's Rescue Program
> >> > http://www.neorescue.org
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > ----
> >> > To subscribe, unsubscribe, suspend, or view list archives,
> >> > visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
> >> >
>
>
>
> >> ----
> >> To subscribe, unsubscribe, suspend, or view list archives,
> >> visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Karl Groves - Certified Master CIW
> http://www.karlcore.com
>
> AOL, MSN, YAHOO Users IM me at - "KarlCore"
>
>
> Visit my favorite places:
>
> Baltimore Punk & Hardcore
> http://www.baltimorepunk.com
>
>
> Punk Rock Worldwide
> http://www.punkrockworldwide.com
>
>
> United States Neapolitan Mastiff Club's Rescue Program
> http://www.neorescue.org
>
>
>
> ----
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, suspend, or view list archives,
> visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>
>
----
To subscribe, unsubscribe, suspend, or view list archives,
visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
From: Mark Bryant
Date: Thu, Nov 06 2003 2:19PM
Subject: Re: re[2]: opening new browser windows?
← Previous message | Next message →
"For supplemental content" is exactly why we are considering, which you seem
to contradict in your second statement.
You say they are bad, but yet suggest how do them on your own website under
the pop-up windows section: "But if you're using popup windows for
supplementary content, you should not use "#" or "javascript:" as your
hypertext reference. Use a real link, and set your JavaScript code to
"return false". The link will operate properly regardless of scripting
support. "
??
-mark
----- Original Message -----
From: < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >; < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 3:43 PM
Subject: re[2]: opening new browser windows?
> No. I cannot elaborate. Please do not mistake my tone, but I really do
mean exactly what I've said.
> Any new window is bad.
>
> What is the purpose for a new window?
> Potential answers:
> 1) "Keep them in my site" - Why? Because they can't find their way back?
To annoy them by making them close new windows?
> 2) "For supplemental content" - This is clearly an Information
Architecture problem. I have seen one supplemental window that I thought
was well done - a glossary of terms on a mortgage site.
>
>
>
> >> I disagree about the clearness. "Any new window is bad" is not very
> >> helpful. Can you elaborate?
>
> >> -mark
>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> >> To: < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >; < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> >> Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 3:03 PM
> >> Subject: re: opening new browser windows?
>
>
> >> > I think the guideline is quite clearly worded "do not cause
pop-ups or
> >> other windows to appear"
> >> > Any new window is bad.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > >> What is the proper way to handle a link that when clicked,
opens a
> >> new
> >> > >> browser window (target=_blank)? Does it need to be
addressed for
> >> > >> accessibility and if so, why and how?
> >> >
> >> > >> I have read in the WAI about Checkpoint 10.1 "Until user
agents
> >> allow
> >> > >> users
> >> > >> to turn off spawned windows, do not cause pop-ups or other
windows
> >> to
> >> > >> appear
> >> > >> and do not change the current window without informing the
user.
> >> [Priority
> >> > >> 2]".
> >> >
> >> > >> Seems like this only applies to server spawned windows and
not
> >> user
> >> > >> initiated clicking?
> >> >
> >> > >> TIA,
> >> > >> -mark
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > >> ----
> >> > >> To subscribe, unsubscribe, suspend, or view list archives,
> >> > >> visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Karl Groves - Certified Master CIW
> >> > http://www.karlcore.com
> >> >
> >> > AOL, MSN, YAHOO Users IM me at - "KarlCore"
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Visit my favorite places:
> >> >
> >> > Baltimore Punk & Hardcore
> >> > http://www.baltimorepunk.com
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Punk Rock Worldwide
> >> > http://www.punkrockworldwide.com
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > United States Neapolitan Mastiff Club's Rescue Program
> >> > http://www.neorescue.org
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > ----
> >> > To subscribe, unsubscribe, suspend, or view list archives,
> >> > visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
> >> >
>
>
>
> >> ----
> >> To subscribe, unsubscribe, suspend, or view list archives,
> >> visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Karl Groves - Certified Master CIW
> http://www.karlcore.com
>
> AOL, MSN, YAHOO Users IM me at - "KarlCore"
>
>
> Visit my favorite places:
>
> Baltimore Punk & Hardcore
> http://www.baltimorepunk.com
>
>
> Punk Rock Worldwide
> http://www.punkrockworldwide.com
>
>
> United States Neapolitan Mastiff Club's Rescue Program
> http://www.neorescue.org
>
>
>
> ----
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, suspend, or view list archives,
> visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>
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From: Jared Smith
Date: Thu, Nov 06 2003 2:31PM
Subject: Re: opening new browser windows?
← Previous message | Next message →
In response to several of the comments regarding new browser windows:
> Any new window is bad.
On this point, perhaps we can agree to disagree. From an instructional
standpoint, WebAIM has chosen to provide external resources in new
browser windows. Yes, we alert the user to the new window within the
link label. No, we do not rely wholly on the unsupported TITLE tag. Yes, we
use javascript to open the new window, but if javascript is disabled,
the link works normally. The href of the link points to the target
page, but is overridden by the javascript, if enabled. The spawned
window is a standard browser with all toolbars, menus, etc. Check any of
the WebAIM pages to see our approach, which I believe to be a very
effective method as verified through screen reader testing. I'll post a
snippet of code below.
> I think the guideline is quite clearly worded "do not cause pop-ups
> or other windows to appear"
This is the WCAG guideline, which perhaps, we have knowingly subverted. Our
goal is accessibility, not only only compliance with the outdated and
rather ambiguous guidelines. Our choice in opening the new windows was
also to help achieve increased usability and instructional soundness
(something that many might argue with, but I'll stand by it).
Javascript was used to reach xhtml strict compliance.
> Changing the current window or popping up new windows can be very
> disorienting to users who cannot see that this has happened.
Indeed. Yet alerting them to the fact seems to alleviate the
problems. The assumption that a pop-up window is fundamentally confusing to a
screen reader user is false. Just as sighted users have learned to
deal with pop-ups (I counted 6 in the last 10 minutes of Google
searching on this matter), screen reader users have as well. It
typically takes but a moment for a screen reader user to determine
that they have arrived in a pop-up window, at which time it takes a
key press to close the window or move to the original one. When
alerted, returning from any supplemental content in a pop-up window to
the original page is as quick as the user can press ALT+TAB or ALT+F4.
This approach often provides a more effective 'information architecture'
than requiring the user to backtrack a step at a time to the point of
origin.
Still, the decision to use pop-up windows must be taken seriously and
with much research and consideration, despite the opinions and
standards of others.
Pop-up window code:
<a href="somepage.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href); return false;">Link label
<img src="new_window.gif" alt="opens in a new window" title="opens in a new window" width="24" height="12" /></a>
NOTE: We are currently reviewing the use of onclick and onkeypress as
referenced in my other recent post.
Jared Smith
WebAIM (Web Accessibility In Mind)
Center for Persons with Disabilities
Utah State University
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From: Mark Bryant
Date: Thu, Nov 06 2003 2:43PM
Subject: Re: opening new browser windows?
← Previous message | Next message →
Jared,
I agree with your comments, especially about the usability. I wish the WAI
was a little more usable so I can find the "little point" Jukka referred to.
It is easy to get lost with all the target links that seem to run in
circles.
I was curious if the "opens in a new widow" was part of the WAI or just a
result of the guidelines? What are your thoughts about letting users know
about the new window in the new window. For example, click a link the opens
a new window and then at the beginning, say "this is a new window".
-mark
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jared Smith" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 4:28 PM
Subject: Re: opening new browser windows?
> In response to several of the comments regarding new browser windows:
>
> > Any new window is bad.
>
> On this point, perhaps we can agree to disagree. From an instructional
> standpoint, WebAIM has chosen to provide external resources in new
> browser windows. Yes, we alert the user to the new window within the
> link label. No, we do not rely wholly on the unsupported TITLE tag. Yes,
we
> use javascript to open the new window, but if javascript is disabled,
> the link works normally. The href of the link points to the target
> page, but is overridden by the javascript, if enabled. The spawned
> window is a standard browser with all toolbars, menus, etc. Check any of
> the WebAIM pages to see our approach, which I believe to be a very
> effective method as verified through screen reader testing. I'll post a
> snippet of code below.
>
> > I think the guideline is quite clearly worded "do not cause pop-ups
> > or other windows to appear"
>
> This is the WCAG guideline, which perhaps, we have knowingly subverted.
Our
> goal is accessibility, not only only compliance with the outdated and
> rather ambiguous guidelines. Our choice in opening the new windows was
> also to help achieve increased usability and instructional soundness
> (something that many might argue with, but I'll stand by it).
> Javascript was used to reach xhtml strict compliance.
>
> > Changing the current window or popping up new windows can be very
> > disorienting to users who cannot see that this has happened.
>
> Indeed. Yet alerting them to the fact seems to alleviate the
> problems. The assumption that a pop-up window is fundamentally confusing
to a
> screen reader user is false. Just as sighted users have learned to
> deal with pop-ups (I counted 6 in the last 10 minutes of Google
> searching on this matter), screen reader users have as well. It
> typically takes but a moment for a screen reader user to determine
> that they have arrived in a pop-up window, at which time it takes a
> key press to close the window or move to the original one. When
> alerted, returning from any supplemental content in a pop-up window to
> the original page is as quick as the user can press ALT+TAB or ALT+F4.
> This approach often provides a more effective 'information architecture'
> than requiring the user to backtrack a step at a time to the point of
> origin.
>
> Still, the decision to use pop-up windows must be taken seriously and
> with much research and consideration, despite the opinions and
> standards of others.
>
> Pop-up window code:
> <a href="somepage.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href); return
false;">Link label
> <img src="new_window.gif" alt="opens in a new window" title="opens in a
new window" width="24" height="12" /></a>
>
> NOTE: We are currently reviewing the use of onclick and onkeypress as
> referenced in my other recent post.
>
> Jared Smith
> WebAIM (Web Accessibility In Mind)
> Center for Persons with Disabilities
> Utah State University
>
>
> ----
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, suspend, or view list archives,
> visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>
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From: John Foliot - WATS.ca
Date: Thu, Nov 06 2003 3:08PM
Subject: RE: opening new browser windows?
← Previous message | Next message →
> (I counted 6 in the last 10 minutes of Google searching on this matter)
Whereas I counted none, although my Google bar in IE (or settings in NN7.1 /
Opera) is blocking loads of popups...
Which then leads to another question: the WCAG states "...Until user agents
allow users to turn off spawned windows, do not cause pop-ups or other
windows to appear..." Considering that many of the latest generation of
browsers and/or third party add-ons have satisfied the first criteria
("Until user agents allow users to turn off spawned windows"), and assuming
that users are employing these tools/methods/settings, why would you then go
out of your way to circumvent their wishes, and/or remove access to content
(For example, JavaScript "may" be enabled but a browser is "protected" via
any number of third party apps to avoid popups). Then what? No content
available to the user? Perhaps...
No, the comment made earlier about this being an Information Architecture
issue is probably closer to the truth... surely creative and talented
developers can provide equivalent functionality without resorting to the
simplistic spawning of a new window.
<opinion>
Jared, I will presume that this has been discussed at some length at WebAIM,
and I appreciate your perceived "balanced" approach, but I would also
suggest that any organization/web site which purports to address web
accessibility and support of "Standards" should take a stricter and perhaps
narrower interpretation of the (possibly flawed) WCAG Checklist, if for no
other reason than to "...eat their own dogfood*"
(*famous quotation from accessibility specialist Joe Clark)
</opinion>
JF
--
John Foliot = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Web Accessibility Specialist / Co-founder of WATS.ca
Web Accessibility Testing and Services
http://www.wats.ca 1.866.932.4878 (North America)
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From: webmaster
Date: Thu, Nov 06 2003 3:30PM
Subject: re[4]: opening new browser windows?
← Previous message | Next message →
How is saying how to do them better at all equivocal with saying that they're OK?
In fact, the article you reference also states VERY explicitly:
Opening new windows is bad enough as it is. The above article only aims at showing you how to make them better. The best answer is to not use them at all. Please see the following links for details -
1. Jakob Nielsen's Alertbox: The Top Ten New Mistakes of Web Design - http://www.useit.com/alertbox/990530.html
2. Jakob Nielsen's Alertbox: Top Ten Web-Design Mistakes of 2002 - http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20021223.html
3. Dive Into Accessibility: Day 16, Not Opening New Windows - http://diveintomark.org/archives/2002/07/01/day_16_not_opening_new_windows.html
4. Dan's Web Tips: Opening New Browser Windows - http://webtips.dantobias.com/new-window.html
>> "For supplemental content" is exactly why we are considering, which you
>> seem
>> to contradict in your second statement.
>> You say they are bad, but yet suggest how do them on your own website
>> under
>> the pop-up windows section: "But if you're using popup windows for
>> supplementary content, you should not use "#" or "javascript:" as your
>> hypertext reference. Use a real link, and set your JavaScript code to
>> "return false". The link will operate properly regardless of scripting
>> support. "
>> ??
>> -mark
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> To: < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >; < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 3:43 PM
>> Subject: re[2]: opening new browser windows?
>> > No. I cannot elaborate. Please do not mistake my tone, but I really do
>> mean exactly what I've said.
>> > Any new window is bad.
>> >
>> > What is the purpose for a new window?
>> > Potential answers:
>> > 1) "Keep them in my site" - Why? Because they can't find their way back?
>> To annoy them by making them close new windows?
>> > 2) "For supplemental content" - This is clearly an Information
>> Architecture problem. I have seen one supplemental window that I thought
>> was well done - a glossary of terms on a mortgage site.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > >> I disagree about the clearness. "Any new window is bad" is not
>> very
>> > >> helpful. Can you elaborate?
>> >
>> > >> -mark
>> >
>> > >> ----- Original Message -----
>> > >> From: < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> > >> To: < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >; < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> > >> Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 3:03 PM
>> > >> Subject: re: opening new browser windows?
>> >
>> >
>> > >> > I think the guideline is quite clearly worded "do not cause
>> pop-ups or
>> > >> other windows to appear"
>> > >> > Any new window is bad.
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >> > >> What is the proper way to handle a link that when clicked,
>> opens a
>> > >> new
>> > >> > >> browser window (target=_blank)? Does it need to be
>> addressed for
>> > >> > >> accessibility and if so, why and how?
>> > >> >
>> > >> > >> I have read in the WAI about Checkpoint 10.1 "Until user
>> agents
>> > >> allow
>> > >> > >> users
>> > >> > >> to turn off spawned windows, do not cause pop-ups or other
>> windows
>> > >> to
>> > >> > >> appear
>> > >> > >> and do not change the current window without informing the
>> user.
>> > >> [Priority
>> > >> > >> 2]".
>> > >> >
>> > >> > >> Seems like this only applies to server spawned windows and
>> not
>> > >> user
>> > >> > >> initiated clicking?
>> > >> >
>> > >> > >> TIA,
>> > >> > >> -mark
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >> > >> ----
>> > >> > >> To subscribe, unsubscribe, suspend, or view list archives,
>> > >> > >> visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Karl Groves - Certified Master CIW
>> > >> > http://www.karlcore.com
>> > >> >
>> > >> > AOL, MSN, YAHOO Users IM me at - "KarlCore"
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Visit my favorite places:
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Baltimore Punk & Hardcore
>> > >> > http://www.baltimorepunk.com
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Punk Rock Worldwide
>> > >> > http://www.punkrockworldwide.com
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >> > United States Neapolitan Mastiff Club's Rescue Program
>> > >> > http://www.neorescue.org
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >> > ----
>> > >> > To subscribe, unsubscribe, suspend, or view list archives,
>> > >> > visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>> > >> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > >> ----
>> > >> To subscribe, unsubscribe, suspend, or view list archives,
>> > >> visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Karl Groves - Certified Master CIW
>> > http://www.karlcore.com
>> >
>> > AOL, MSN, YAHOO Users IM me at - "KarlCore"
>> >
>> >
>> > Visit my favorite places:
>> >
>> > Baltimore Punk & Hardcore
>> > http://www.baltimorepunk.com
>> >
>> >
>> > Punk Rock Worldwide
>> > http://www.punkrockworldwide.com
>> >
>> >
>> > United States Neapolitan Mastiff Club's Rescue Program
>> > http://www.neorescue.org
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ----
>> > To subscribe, unsubscribe, suspend, or view list archives,
>> > visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>> >
>> ----
>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, suspend, or view list archives,
>> visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
Karl Groves - Certified Master CIW
http://www.karlcore.com
AOL, MSN, YAHOO Users IM me at - "KarlCore"
Visit my favorite places:
Baltimore Punk & Hardcore
http://www.baltimorepunk.com
Punk Rock Worldwide
http://www.punkrockworldwide.com
United States Neapolitan Mastiff Club's Rescue Program
http://www.neorescue.org
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From: John Middleton
Date: Thu, Nov 06 2003 3:44PM
Subject: re[2]: opening new browser windows?
← Previous message | Next message →
Here's an interesting example of what I might think of as an
acceptable target=_blank window from Perkins School for the Blind.
I rather like this technique for such limited function of describing
images (longdesc).
It explicitly states on the page in text that it is a new window and
offers a 'close this window' link to return exactly where the user
left.
This offers both visual and non visual user equal access and more detail.
Click on an image to see an example.
<http://www.perkins.pvt.k12.ma.us/section.php?id=18>;
Regards,
J.Middleton
>*Needing* to open new windows means there is an Information
>Architecture problem, IMO.
>
>
> >> I would argue with the idea that all pop-up windows are bad. There are
> >> many cases when providing content in an external window could be both
> >> useful and beneficial to users. I do agree that in all cases, the
> >> user should be alerted to the fact that the link is opening in a new
> >> window. WebAIM has made the decision with our recent redesign to open
> >> links to content external from our site in a new browser window. We
> >> are doing so with javascript, though the link acts normally if
> >> javascript in turned off. You can see examples of our approach at
> >> http://webaim.org/ The links to the Wave open in a new window.
>
> >> Jared Smith
> >> WebAIM (Web Accessibility In Mind)
> >> Center for Persons with Disabilities
> >> Utah State University
>
>
>
> >> ***************
> >> On Thursday, November 06, 2003 you sent:
> >> MB> What is the proper way to handle a link that when clicked,
>opens a new
> >> MB> browser window (target=_blank)? Does it need to be addressed for
> >> MB> accessibility and if so, why and how?
>
> >> MB> I have read in the WAI about Checkpoint 10.1 "Until user
>agents allow
> >> users
> >> MB> to turn off spawned windows, do not cause pop-ups or other
>windows to
> >> appear
> >> MB> and do not change the current window without informing the user.
> >> [Priority
> >> MB> 2]".
>
> >> MB> Seems like this only applies to server spawned windows and not user
> >> MB> initiated clicking?
>
> >> MB> TIA,
> >> MB> -mark
>
>
> >> ***************
>
>
> >> ----
> >> To subscribe, unsubscribe, suspend, or view list archives,
> >> visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Karl Groves - Certified Master CIW
>http://www.karlcore.com
>
>AOL, MSN, YAHOO Users IM me at - "KarlCore"
>
>
>Visit my favorite places:
>
>Baltimore Punk & Hardcore
>http://www.baltimorepunk.com
>
>
>Punk Rock Worldwide
>http://www.punkrockworldwide.com
>
>
>United States Neapolitan Mastiff Club's Rescue Program
>http://www.neorescue.org
>
>
>
>
From: Paul Bohman
Date: Thu, Nov 06 2003 4:31PM
Subject: Re: opening new browser windows?
← Previous message | Next message →
Before saying too much, I want to make it clear that WebAIM does not
endorse extraneous pop-up windows. The practice of creating surprise
windows that the user did not request is antithetical to accessibility.
WebAIM does not create extraneous surprise popups.
In redesigning the site, we did, however, decide to have external links
open in a new browser window, and of course we wanted to alert the user
about the new window as well.
There are drawbacks and weaknesses to opening new windows. We considered
both when redesigning the site. Though we decided to include links that
open new windows, I should say that we don't feel that it was the only
solution. We could just as easily have done it the other way, with all
links staying in the same window, and we have mixed feelings about both
methods.
Drawbacks to new browser windows:
1. Although most users are quite familiar with the idea of closing
external windows, some users will be confused. Some users with cognitive
disabilities fit this description.
Note: Contrary to what some have said, I don't think that screen
reader users are put at any additional disadvantage by new windows by
virtue of their being blind (e.g. blind people experience the same
disadvantages as sighted users, but no additional ones). All modern
screen readers (that I am aware of) tell the user when a new window is
opening. Some say "new browser window" (or something similar); others
play a certain sound that accomplishes the same purpose. In other words,
even if you don't explicitly tell the user in your page that you will be
opening a new window, the screen reader tells the user anyway. This is
not to say that we should rely on screen readers to tell us. For one
thing, the screen reader won't say anything until after you've already
clicked on the link. By then, it's too late to decide if you want to
follow the link. So the recommendation is still to alert the user.
Besides, not all users use screen readers. Visual users are entitled to
know if the link opens in a new window or not.
2. Some people just don't like it when web sites have links that open in
new windows, even if the site warns the user. These users feel that they
should be able to choose for themselves whether the link opens a new
window. This is a legitimate concern. I certainly don't want to annoy
users just for the fun of it, and I am also in favor of allowing users
to have control over their browsing experience.
Those are the drawbacks to new browser windows. Here are some benefits:
Benefits:
1. There is also a significant group of people who find that the new
window can be beneficial in that it alerts them when they are leaving
the site. Interestingly, many blind people fit this description. For
example, one of our WebAIM members is blind and uses a screen reader. If
a link destination is in the same window as the previous page, he
usually assumes that the link is to another page on the same site. There
have been times when he's gotten confused about the content of a Web
site, only to find out that he is no longer on the Web site at all. He
didn't know that the link was to a completely different site, and there
was no clear indication that he had left the first site. Upon being told
that he was on the wrong site, he was a little bit embarrassed.
Obviously he had misunderstood the purpose of the link. Blind people
don't have the benefit of being able to see that the look and feel of a
Web site has changed dramatically. They can't immediately figure this
out in the same way that visual users can, so they sometimes don't
realize that they have entered an entirely different Web site.
2. Since WebAIM is primarily instructional content, in which the
external links are considered "additional resources", instructional
theory generally asserts that it is best to make a clear distinction
between the core content and external, supplementary content. If a link
is labeled as being an external link that opens in a new window, it
makes a clear distinction between the core content and the supplementary
content.
Those are the main benefits of having external links open in new windows.
CONCLUSION:
Anyone can look at these and other drawbacks and benefits and decide in
favor or against having external links open in new windows. I don't
think that the answer is as clear cut as we'd like it to be, though I
know that some people have very definite opinions. Perhaps WebAIM will
change its method in the future. Perhaps not.
As far as "eating our own dogfood" is concerned, I have this to say:
WebAIM supports the standards of the WAI, and has participated in the
process of creating the standards with the WAI. Still, you should be
aware that not everyone on the WAI committees is in unanimous agreement
about all aspects of the standards that they themselves create. The
purpose of WebAIM is not to endorse all standards for better or for
worse. If there are standards that don't quite work as well as we'd like
them to, we don't tell people that they have to obey the standard just
for the sake of obeying the standard. That would be silly. In fact, that
is why the WAI has an ongoing workgroup dedicated to improving the
standards. Some WAI recommendations will always be around, and some will
fade away. I don't know what the recommendation will be in version 2.0
of the WAI guidelines because version 2.0 is still very much a work in
progress. In the meantime, WebAIM has implemented a method which,
although controversial, has a basis in logic. Whether it is the best
decision or not is a matter of opinion, and we ourselves are open to the
possibility that our own opinions may change in the future.
John Foliot - WATS.ca wrote:
> <opinion>
> Jared, I will presume that this has been discussed at some length at WebAIM,
> and I appreciate your perceived "balanced" approach, but I would also
> suggest that any organization/web site which purports to address web
> accessibility and support of "Standards" should take a stricter and perhaps
> narrower interpretation of the (possibly flawed) WCAG Checklist, if for no
> other reason than to "...eat their own dogfood*"
--
Paul Ryan Bohman
Technology Coordinator
WebAIM (Web Accessibility in Mind)
www.webaim.org
Center for Persons with Disabilities
www.cpd.usu.edu
Utah State University
www.usu.edu
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From: Sachin Pavitran
Date: Fri, Nov 07 2003 11:15AM
Subject: Opening New Windows
← Previous message | Next message →
I am Sachin Pavithran, the Assistive Technology specialist at WEBAIM. After
reading all the postings posted by developers about opening a new window in
a browser, here is my prospective about opening new windows being a JAWS
user.
When a new window is opened JAWS alerts the user that a new window is being
opened, which lets the screen reader user know what is going on the browser.
From my experiences on web pages that had new windows being opened to
external links, I always felt it was good way for me to keep track of where
I was. Now remember I am talking about only external links. When I go to an
external link from web site that I am on, it is easier for me to track back
to the web site that I was originally on because all I need to do is "ALT +
TAB" i.e. shuffle between the windows to get to the window of the website
that I was originally on. I know that I could always hit the back button and
try to find my way back to the original website, depending on how deep you
have gone into the website after choosing the external link it is very
confusing, time consuming, and frustrating to back track to the original web
page when you are using a screen reader. One thing I would recommend web
designers to do when they create new windows is that make sure that you
label the Title bar with a title that lets the user know which window they
are on. Screen reader users always check the title bar to see which window
they are on. This is a key information for a screen reader user to figure
out where they are on a website. I wouldn't recommend having a new window
open for anything other than an external link or for a window that contains
additional information about a particular link which has no other pages
linking from that window. When it comes down to my personal preference, I
would love to have new windows open for the reasons and choices mentioned
above to keep track of where I am on the internet.
******************************************************
Sachin Dev Pavithran
Training and Development Specialist
Center for Persons with Disabilities
6800 Old Main Hill,
Logan, Ut - 84322
U.S.A.
Work Phone : 1-(435)-797 0974
Email : = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Visit Us at http://www.cpd.usu.edu
******************************************************
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From: Stephanie Sullivan
Date: Fri, Nov 07 2003 11:38AM
Subject: Re: Opening New Windows
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on 11/7/03 1:12 PM, Sachin Pavitran at = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = profoundly spewed
forth their very articulate thoughts:
> When it comes down to my personal preference, I
> would love to have new windows open for the reasons and choices mentioned
> above to keep track of where I am on the internet.
I, for one, really appreciate your perspective in this Sachin... It's always
good to hear from someone that uses the technology that we try to support.
:) Thank you!
Stephanie Sullivan
Contributing Author .: "Macromedia Dreamweaver MX 2004 Magic" :. New Riders
CommunityMX Team Member :: http://www.communitymx.com
Technical Editor .: "DreamweaverMX Killer Tips" :. New Riders
VioletSky Design :: http://www.violetsky.net
From: Michael D. Roush
Date: Fri, Nov 07 2003 12:40PM
Subject: Re: Opening New Windows
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Sachin Pavitran" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> I am Sachin Pavithran, the Assistive Technology specialist at WEBAIM.
After
> reading all the postings posted by developers about opening a new window
in
> a browser, here is my prospective about opening new windows being a JAWS
> user.
>
> When a new window is opened JAWS alerts the user that a new window is
being
> opened, which lets the screen reader user know what is going on the
browser.
And this calls attention to the fundamental difference between "Screen
Readers" and "Talking Web Browsers". A high-quality (with a commensurate
price tag) screen reader like JAWS is usable for so many other things on a
computer than just Web/Internet usage. Some talking web browsers may handle
'spawned' windows with great clarity for the user. Some, in my experience,
do not.
Knowing this, each developer is then left to grapple with the decision of
how much variety of browser capabilities to accomodate. Much of the talk I
am seeing back and forth on this subject is that old balance between 'what
the standards say' and 'what seems to work for which people'.
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From: julian.rickards
Date: Fri, Nov 07 2003 12:49PM
Subject: RE: Opening New Windows
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Sachin:
I am a sighted person and with respect to my efforts at trying to understand
how a JAWS user works with web pages, I feel that I am the blind one and for
that, I appreciate your input. However, I do have one question about
something you just mentioned below:
<quote>
I wouldn't recommend having a new window open for anything other than an
external link or for a window that contains additional information about a
particular link which has no other pages linking from that window.
<end of quote>
Are you saying that JavaScript pop-up windows cause you problems? Is there
anyway to provide through JavaScript the feature you would like to have, ie
a title?
Thanks,
Jules
---------------------------------------------------------
Julian Rickards
Digital Publications Distribution Coordinator
Publications Services Section
Ontario Ministry of Northern Development and Mines
Phone: (705) 670-5608
Fax: (705) 670-5690
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From: Theresa Hansen
Date: Fri, Nov 07 2003 12:53PM
Subject: Re: Opening New Windows
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Sachin,
Thank you for your response to this. I have recently joined this list
and appreciate the dialog and information that is presented. In the end
what it all comes down to is how do real users interact with the
websites we create. Thank you for sharing your "real world" perspective.
Theresa Hansen
----
University of Alaska Anchorage
Center for Human Development
On Friday, November 7, 2003, at 09:12 AM, Sachin Pavitran wrote:
> I am Sachin Pavithran, the Assistive Technology specialist at WEBAIM.
> After
> reading all the postings posted by developers about opening a new
> window in
> a browser, here is my prospective about opening new windows being a
> JAWS
> user.
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From: Karl Groves
Date: Fri, Nov 07 2003 1:03PM
Subject: RE: Opening New Windows
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Unfortunately, I think that the conversation has degenerated in the same manner that too many accessibility discussions do: Reducing "accessibility" to "design for those with screen readers".
In addition, there's the "what I like.." factor that hobbles general usability.
In the first case, we must remember that accessible design is, at its root, "design for all". Not just the blind. Not just low vision. But even the WebAIM site itself points out the types of special needs to consider:
Visual: blindness, low vision, color-blindness
Hearing: deafness
Motor: inability to use a mouse, slow response time, limited fine motor control
Cognitive: learning disabilities, distractibility, inability to remember or focus on large amounts of information
In addition to these 4 types of special needs, is the possibility for a combination of special needs, and/or the range of severities of those needs.
The question then is NOT, "Does opening new windows present problems for the *blind*?", but rather "Is opening a new window accessible to all users?"
"The power of the Web is in its universality. Access by everyone regardless of disability is an essential aspect" - Tim Berners Lee
Next is the "what I like..." factor.
Accessibility is a subset of the general quest for Usability. While one user may appreciate a new window, the prevailing wisdom is that new windows are bad.
"Opening up new browser windows is like a vacuum cleaner sales person who starts a visit by emptying an ash tray on the customer's carpet. Don't pollute my screen with any more windows, thanks (particularly since current operating systems have miserable window management). If I want a new window, I will open it myself!"
"Designers open new browser windows on the theory that it keeps users on their site. But even disregarding the user-hostile message implied in taking over the user's machine, the strategy is self-defeating since it disables the Back button which is the normal way users return to previous sites. Users often don't notice that a new window has opened, especially if they are using a small monitor where the windows are maximized to fill up the screen. So a user who tries to return to the origin will be confused by a grayed out Back button." - Jakob Nielsen (http://www.useit.com/alertbox/990530.html)
For those who are Nielsen haters, overwhelming data from other sources indicated these same sentiments including one study from NIH that discussed a new window that said "User feedback about this window was overwhelmingly negative".
During July '03, we had a survey on our site which allowed user comments at the end. One of the most frequent complaints: "Stop opening so many new windows!"
So, the greater issue is that new windows are not only a potential accessibility problem, but also an ease-of-use problem that takes away the power of the user over their browsing experience. It may be your website, but it is their computer. Leave the user in control of it.
Karl L. Groves, Certified Master CIW Designer
E-Commerce Manager
NASA Federal Credit Union
500 Prince Georges Blvd.
Upper Marlboro, MD 20774
301-249-1800 ext.497
Fax: 301-390-4531
Opinions expressed in this e-mail represent only myself and are not in any way to be taken as the words or opinions of my employer.
>
From: Sarah Horton
Date: Wed, Nov 12 2003 11:52AM
Subject: RE: opening new browser windows?
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From: Sarah Horton
Date: Wed, Nov 12 2003 11:52AM
Subject: RE: opening new browser windows?
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