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Number of posts in this thread: 14 (In chronological order)

From: Lucy GRECO
Date: Tue, Oct 29 2019 1:45PM
Subject: why is it so hard to read the aria spec
No previous message | Next message →

hello: i just was sent a link to to a part of the aria spec and i have to
say that was a reely horrendous task to read and i never did find what i
needed.
wile looking throu the page i saw at least 4 heddings at h4 that said
note and i stoped looking at 5 h5 that also were labled note. for crying
out lowd can't we make this stuff better to read
Lucia Greco
Web Accessibility Evangelist
IST - Architecture, Platforms, and Integration
University of California, Berkeley
(510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
Follow me on twitter @accessaces

From: Colin Osterhout
Date: Tue, Oct 29 2019 2:00PM
Subject: Re: why is it so hard to read the aria spec
← Previous message | Next message →

Have you checked out the WAI-ARIA Authoring Practices
<https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices-1.1/> as a more practical guide
to authoring using ARIA?

Colin

On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 11:46 AM Lucy GRECO < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> hello: i just was sent a link to to a part of the aria spec and i have to
> say that was a reely horrendous task to read and i never did find what i
> needed.
> wile looking throu the page i saw at least 4 heddings at h4 that said
> note and i stoped looking at 5 h5 that also were labled note. for crying
> out lowd can't we make this stuff better to read
> Lucia Greco
> Web Accessibility Evangelist
> IST - Architecture, Platforms, and Integration
> University of California, Berkeley
> (510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
> http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
> Follow me on twitter @accessaces
> > > > >


--
Colin Osterhout
Website Coordinator, University of Alaska Southeast
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
907-796-6576

For fastest response for your web needs, please email
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = .

<http://uas.alaska.edu/>;
[image: Like UAS on Facebook] <https://facebook.com/UASALASKA>
[image: Follow along with UAS on Instagram]
<https://www.instagram.com/uasoutheast/>
[image: Follow UAS on Twitter] <https://twitter.com/uasoutheast>

From: Lucy GRECO
Date: Tue, Oct 29 2019 2:10PM
Subject: Re: why is it so hard to read the aria spec
← Previous message | Next message →

this is the page I was looking at
https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.1/#note

yes your link was easy to read much better but i never found the role of
note there will look more later
Lucia Greco
Web Accessibility Evangelist
IST - Architecture, Platforms, and Integration
University of California, Berkeley
(510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
Follow me on twitter @accessaces



On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 1:00 PM Colin Osterhout < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:

> Have you checked out the WAI-ARIA Authoring Practices
> <https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices-1.1/> as a more practical guide
> to authoring using ARIA?
>
> Colin
>
> On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 11:46 AM Lucy GRECO < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> > hello: i just was sent a link to to a part of the aria spec and i have
> to
> > say that was a reely horrendous task to read and i never did find what i
> > needed.
> > wile looking throu the page i saw at least 4 heddings at h4 that said
> > note and i stoped looking at 5 h5 that also were labled note. for crying
> > out lowd can't we make this stuff better to read
> > Lucia Greco
> > Web Accessibility Evangelist
> > IST - Architecture, Platforms, and Integration
> > University of California, Berkeley
> > (510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
> > http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
> > Follow me on twitter @accessaces
> > > > > > > > > >
>
>
> --
> Colin Osterhout
> Website Coordinator, University of Alaska Southeast
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> 907-796-6576
>
> For fastest response for your web needs, please email
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = .
>
> <http://uas.alaska.edu/>;
> [image: Like UAS on Facebook] <https://facebook.com/UASALASKA>
> [image: Follow along with UAS on Instagram]
> <https://www.instagram.com/uasoutheast/>
> [image: Follow UAS on Twitter] <https://twitter.com/uasoutheast>
> > > > >

From: Peter Krautzberger
Date: Tue, Oct 29 2019 3:08PM
Subject: Re: why is it so hard to read the aria spec
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Lucy,

While the ARIA WG is definitely aware that the spec's readability can be
improved, the main challenge is probably that the ARIA spec is not
primarily meant for authors but for browser and AT developers.

To quote the overview at [1]:

"WAI-ARIA 1.1 technical specification [...] is primarily for developers of
Web browsers, assistive technologies, and other user agents; developers of
Web technologies (technical specifications); and developers of
accessibility evaluation tools."

Best,
Peter.

[1] https://www.w3.org/WAI/standards-guidelines/aria/

Am Di., 29. Okt. 2019 um 21:11 Uhr schrieb Lucy GRECO < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >:

> this is the page I was looking at
> https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.1/#note
>
> yes your link was easy to read much better but i never found the role of
> note there will look more later
> Lucia Greco
> Web Accessibility Evangelist
> IST - Architecture, Platforms, and Integration
> University of California, Berkeley
> (510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
> http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
> Follow me on twitter @accessaces
>
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 1:00 PM Colin Osterhout < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> wrote:
>
> > Have you checked out the WAI-ARIA Authoring Practices
> > <https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices-1.1/> as a more practical
> guide
> > to authoring using ARIA?
> >
> > Colin
> >
> > On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 11:46 AM Lucy GRECO < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> >
> > > hello: i just was sent a link to to a part of the aria spec and i have
> > to
> > > say that was a reely horrendous task to read and i never did find what
> i
> > > needed.
> > > wile looking throu the page i saw at least 4 heddings at h4 that said
> > > note and i stoped looking at 5 h5 that also were labled note. for
> crying
> > > out lowd can't we make this stuff better to read
> > > Lucia Greco
> > > Web Accessibility Evangelist
> > > IST - Architecture, Platforms, and Integration
> > > University of California, Berkeley
> > > (510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
> > > http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
> > > Follow me on twitter @accessaces
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Colin Osterhout
> > Website Coordinator, University of Alaska Southeast
> > = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > 907-796-6576
> >
> > For fastest response for your web needs, please email
> > = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = .
> >
> > <http://uas.alaska.edu/>;
> > [image: Like UAS on Facebook] <https://facebook.com/UASALASKA>
> > [image: Follow along with UAS on Instagram]
> > <https://www.instagram.com/uasoutheast/>
> > [image: Follow UAS on Twitter] <https://twitter.com/uasoutheast>
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > >

From: Lucy GRECO
Date: Tue, Oct 29 2019 3:23PM
Subject: Re: why is it so hard to read the aria spec
← Previous message | Next message →

peter that does nt mean that the document it self should not be layed
out in a way that makes it more accessible and useable why why why is there
so many headings with the text of note this kind of brakes the hole point
of navigating by hedding
Lucia Greco
Web Accessibility Evangelist
IST - Architecture, Platforms, and Integration
University of California, Berkeley
(510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
Follow me on twitter @accessaces



On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 2:08 PM Peter Krautzberger < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:

> Hi Lucy,
>
> While the ARIA WG is definitely aware that the spec's readability can be
> improved, the main challenge is probably that the ARIA spec is not
> primarily meant for authors but for browser and AT developers.
>
> To quote the overview at [1]:
>
> "WAI-ARIA 1.1 technical specification [...] is primarily for developers of
> Web browsers, assistive technologies, and other user agents; developers of
> Web technologies (technical specifications); and developers of
> accessibility evaluation tools."
>
> Best,
> Peter.
>
> [1] https://www.w3.org/WAI/standards-guidelines/aria/
>
> Am Di., 29. Okt. 2019 um 21:11 Uhr schrieb Lucy GRECO < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> >:
>
> > this is the page I was looking at
> > https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.1/#note
> >
> > yes your link was easy to read much better but i never found the role
> of
> > note there will look more later
> > Lucia Greco
> > Web Accessibility Evangelist
> > IST - Architecture, Platforms, and Integration
> > University of California, Berkeley
> > (510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
> > http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
> > Follow me on twitter @accessaces
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 1:00 PM Colin Osterhout < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Have you checked out the WAI-ARIA Authoring Practices
> > > <https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices-1.1/> as a more practical
> > guide
> > > to authoring using ARIA?
> > >
> > > Colin
> > >
> > > On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 11:46 AM Lucy GRECO < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > hello: i just was sent a link to to a part of the aria spec and i
> have
> > > to
> > > > say that was a reely horrendous task to read and i never did find
> what
> > i
> > > > needed.
> > > > wile looking throu the page i saw at least 4 heddings at h4 that
> said
> > > > note and i stoped looking at 5 h5 that also were labled note. for
> > crying
> > > > out lowd can't we make this stuff better to read
> > > > Lucia Greco
> > > > Web Accessibility Evangelist
> > > > IST - Architecture, Platforms, and Integration
> > > > University of California, Berkeley
> > > > (510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
> > > > http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
> > > > Follow me on twitter @accessaces
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Colin Osterhout
> > > Website Coordinator, University of Alaska Southeast
> > > = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > > 907-796-6576
> > >
> > > For fastest response for your web needs, please email
> > > = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = .
> > >
> > > <http://uas.alaska.edu/>;
> > > [image: Like UAS on Facebook] <https://facebook.com/UASALASKA>
> > > [image: Follow along with UAS on Instagram]
> > > <https://www.instagram.com/uasoutheast/>
> > > [image: Follow UAS on Twitter] <https://twitter.com/uasoutheast>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > >

From: L Snider
Date: Wed, Oct 30 2019 11:31AM
Subject: Re: why is it so hard to read the aria spec
← Previous message | Next message →

It is interesting if they take that view, and if that is why they
haven't made the web page accessible...I would be curious to know if
that is the case. If so, that is basically saying that devs can't be
blind, Deaf-Blind or have low vision and use AT themselves, which is
far from the reality...

Cheers

Lisa


On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 6:23 PM Lucy GRECO < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> peter that does nt mean that the document it self should not be layed
> out in a way that makes it more accessible and useable why why why is there
> so many headings with the text of note this kind of brakes the hole point
> of navigating by hedding
> Lucia Greco
> Web Accessibility Evangelist
> IST - Architecture, Platforms, and Integration
> University of California, Berkeley
> (510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
> http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
> Follow me on twitter @accessaces
>
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 2:08 PM Peter Krautzberger < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> wrote:
>
> > Hi Lucy,
> >
> > While the ARIA WG is definitely aware that the spec's readability can be
> > improved, the main challenge is probably that the ARIA spec is not
> > primarily meant for authors but for browser and AT developers.
> >
> > To quote the overview at [1]:
> >
> > "WAI-ARIA 1.1 technical specification [...] is primarily for developers of
> > Web browsers, assistive technologies, and other user agents; developers of
> > Web technologies (technical specifications); and developers of
> > accessibility evaluation tools."
> >
> > Best,
> > Peter.
> >
> > [1] https://www.w3.org/WAI/standards-guidelines/aria/
> >
> > Am Di., 29. Okt. 2019 um 21:11 Uhr schrieb Lucy GRECO < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > >:
> >
> > > this is the page I was looking at
> > > https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.1/#note
> > >
> > > yes your link was easy to read much better but i never found the role
> > of
> > > note there will look more later
> > > Lucia Greco
> > > Web Accessibility Evangelist
> > > IST - Architecture, Platforms, and Integration
> > > University of California, Berkeley
> > > (510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
> > > http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
> > > Follow me on twitter @accessaces
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 1:00 PM Colin Osterhout < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Have you checked out the WAI-ARIA Authoring Practices
> > > > <https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices-1.1/> as a more practical
> > > guide
> > > > to authoring using ARIA?
> > > >
> > > > Colin
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 11:46 AM Lucy GRECO < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > hello: i just was sent a link to to a part of the aria spec and i
> > have
> > > > to
> > > > > say that was a reely horrendous task to read and i never did find
> > what
> > > i
> > > > > needed.
> > > > > wile looking throu the page i saw at least 4 heddings at h4 that
> > said
> > > > > note and i stoped looking at 5 h5 that also were labled note. for
> > > crying
> > > > > out lowd can't we make this stuff better to read
> > > > > Lucia Greco
> > > > > Web Accessibility Evangelist
> > > > > IST - Architecture, Platforms, and Integration
> > > > > University of California, Berkeley
> > > > > (510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
> > > > > http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
> > > > > Follow me on twitter @accessaces
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Colin Osterhout
> > > > Website Coordinator, University of Alaska Southeast
> > > > = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > > > 907-796-6576
> > > >
> > > > For fastest response for your web needs, please email
> > > > = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = .
> > > >
> > > > <http://uas.alaska.edu/>;
> > > > [image: Like UAS on Facebook] <https://facebook.com/UASALASKA>
> > > > [image: Follow along with UAS on Instagram]
> > > > <https://www.instagram.com/uasoutheast/>
> > > > [image: Follow UAS on Twitter] <https://twitter.com/uasoutheast>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > >

From: James Nurthen
Date: Wed, Oct 30 2019 12:18PM
Subject: Re: why is it so hard to read the aria spec
← Previous message | Next message →

Lisa,
We don't take that view. If the document structure is causing the document
to be harder to use then we should fix that.
When there is an issue with the spec please file an issue at
https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues

I think where Peter was going is that the ARIA specification should
probably not be the first place web developers look for ARIA information. I
agree that the Authoring Practices document is more appropriate for most
audiences but that doesn't mean the spec structure should not be improved.

In response to this email thread Léonie filed one issue last night -
https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1108
I won't be able to deal with it immediately as we are in the middle of
wrapping up a release and this will require scripting changes in some of
the supporting infrastructure but now it is logged we know that the issue
exists.

Regards,
James

On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 10:31 AM L Snider < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> It is interesting if they take that view, and if that is why they
> haven't made the web page accessible...I would be curious to know if
> that is the case. If so, that is basically saying that devs can't be
> blind, Deaf-Blind or have low vision and use AT themselves, which is
> far from the reality...
>
> Cheers
>
> Lisa
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 6:23 PM Lucy GRECO < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> >
> > peter that does nt mean that the document it self should not be layed
> > out in a way that makes it more accessible and useable why why why is
> there
> > so many headings with the text of note this kind of brakes the hole point
> > of navigating by hedding
> > Lucia Greco
> > Web Accessibility Evangelist
> > IST - Architecture, Platforms, and Integration
> > University of California, Berkeley
> > (510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
> > http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
> > Follow me on twitter @accessaces
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 2:08 PM Peter Krautzberger <
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Lucy,
> > >
> > > While the ARIA WG is definitely aware that the spec's readability can
> be
> > > improved, the main challenge is probably that the ARIA spec is not
> > > primarily meant for authors but for browser and AT developers.
> > >
> > > To quote the overview at [1]:
> > >
> > > "WAI-ARIA 1.1 technical specification [...] is primarily for
> developers of
> > > Web browsers, assistive technologies, and other user agents;
> developers of
> > > Web technologies (technical specifications); and developers of
> > > accessibility evaluation tools."
> > >
> > > Best,
> > > Peter.
> > >
> > > [1] https://www.w3.org/WAI/standards-guidelines/aria/
> > >
> > > Am Di., 29. Okt. 2019 um 21:11 Uhr schrieb Lucy GRECO <
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > > >:
> > >
> > > > this is the page I was looking at
> > > > https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.1/#note
> > > >
> > > > yes your link was easy to read much better but i never found the
> role
> > > of
> > > > note there will look more later
> > > > Lucia Greco
> > > > Web Accessibility Evangelist
> > > > IST - Architecture, Platforms, and Integration
> > > > University of California, Berkeley
> > > > (510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
> > > > http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
> > > > Follow me on twitter @accessaces
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 1:00 PM Colin Osterhout <
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Have you checked out the WAI-ARIA Authoring Practices
> > > > > <https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices-1.1/> as a more
> practical
> > > > guide
> > > > > to authoring using ARIA?
> > > > >
> > > > > Colin
> > > > >
> > > > > On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 11:46 AM Lucy GRECO < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > hello: i just was sent a link to to a part of the aria spec and
> i
> > > have
> > > > > to
> > > > > > say that was a reely horrendous task to read and i never did find
> > > what
> > > > i
> > > > > > needed.
> > > > > > wile looking throu the page i saw at least 4 heddings at h4
> that
> > > said
> > > > > > note and i stoped looking at 5 h5 that also were labled note. for
> > > > crying
> > > > > > out lowd can't we make this stuff better to read
> > > > > > Lucia Greco
> > > > > > Web Accessibility Evangelist
> > > > > > IST - Architecture, Platforms, and Integration
> > > > > > University of California, Berkeley
> > > > > > (510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
> > > > > > http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
> > > > > > Follow me on twitter @accessaces
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Colin Osterhout
> > > > > Website Coordinator, University of Alaska Southeast
> > > > > = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > > > > 907-796-6576
> > > > >
> > > > > For fastest response for your web needs, please email
> > > > > = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = .
> > > > >
> > > > > <http://uas.alaska.edu/>;
> > > > > [image: Like UAS on Facebook] <https://facebook.com/UASALASKA>
> > > > > [image: Follow along with UAS on Instagram]
> > > > > <https://www.instagram.com/uasoutheast/>
> > > > > [image: Follow UAS on Twitter] <https://twitter.com/uasoutheast>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >

From: L Snider
Date: Wed, Oct 30 2019 1:24PM
Subject: Re: why is it so hard to read the aria spec
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi James,

Thanks for the clarification. I wondered if that page was in the
middle of flux, so that is why I put the 'ifs' in my message.

Cheers

Lisa

On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 3:18 PM James Nurthen < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> Lisa,
> We don't take that view. If the document structure is causing the document
> to be harder to use then we should fix that.
> When there is an issue with the spec please file an issue at
> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues
>
> I think where Peter was going is that the ARIA specification should
> probably not be the first place web developers look for ARIA information. I
> agree that the Authoring Practices document is more appropriate for most
> audiences but that doesn't mean the spec structure should not be improved.
>
> In response to this email thread Léonie filed one issue last night -
> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1108
> I won't be able to deal with it immediately as we are in the middle of
> wrapping up a release and this will require scripting changes in some of
> the supporting infrastructure but now it is logged we know that the issue
> exists.
>
> Regards,
> James
>
> On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 10:31 AM L Snider < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> > It is interesting if they take that view, and if that is why they
> > haven't made the web page accessible...I would be curious to know if
> > that is the case. If so, that is basically saying that devs can't be
> > blind, Deaf-Blind or have low vision and use AT themselves, which is
> > far from the reality...
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > Lisa
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 6:23 PM Lucy GRECO < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> > >
> > > peter that does nt mean that the document it self should not be layed
> > > out in a way that makes it more accessible and useable why why why is
> > there
> > > so many headings with the text of note this kind of brakes the hole point
> > > of navigating by hedding
> > > Lucia Greco
> > > Web Accessibility Evangelist
> > > IST - Architecture, Platforms, and Integration
> > > University of California, Berkeley
> > > (510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
> > > http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
> > > Follow me on twitter @accessaces
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 2:08 PM Peter Krautzberger <
> > = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi Lucy,
> > > >
> > > > While the ARIA WG is definitely aware that the spec's readability can
> > be
> > > > improved, the main challenge is probably that the ARIA spec is not
> > > > primarily meant for authors but for browser and AT developers.
> > > >
> > > > To quote the overview at [1]:
> > > >
> > > > "WAI-ARIA 1.1 technical specification [...] is primarily for
> > developers of
> > > > Web browsers, assistive technologies, and other user agents;
> > developers of
> > > > Web technologies (technical specifications); and developers of
> > > > accessibility evaluation tools."
> > > >
> > > > Best,
> > > > Peter.
> > > >
> > > > [1] https://www.w3.org/WAI/standards-guidelines/aria/
> > > >
> > > > Am Di., 29. Okt. 2019 um 21:11 Uhr schrieb Lucy GRECO <
> > = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > > > >:
> > > >
> > > > > this is the page I was looking at
> > > > > https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.1/#note
> > > > >
> > > > > yes your link was easy to read much better but i never found the
> > role
> > > > of
> > > > > note there will look more later
> > > > > Lucia Greco
> > > > > Web Accessibility Evangelist
> > > > > IST - Architecture, Platforms, and Integration
> > > > > University of California, Berkeley
> > > > > (510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
> > > > > http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
> > > > > Follow me on twitter @accessaces
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 1:00 PM Colin Osterhout <
> > = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Have you checked out the WAI-ARIA Authoring Practices
> > > > > > <https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices-1.1/> as a more
> > practical
> > > > > guide
> > > > > > to authoring using ARIA?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Colin
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 11:46 AM Lucy GRECO < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > hello: i just was sent a link to to a part of the aria spec and
> > i
> > > > have
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > say that was a reely horrendous task to read and i never did find
> > > > what
> > > > > i
> > > > > > > needed.
> > > > > > > wile looking throu the page i saw at least 4 heddings at h4
> > that
> > > > said
> > > > > > > note and i stoped looking at 5 h5 that also were labled note. for
> > > > > crying
> > > > > > > out lowd can't we make this stuff better to read
> > > > > > > Lucia Greco
> > > > > > > Web Accessibility Evangelist
> > > > > > > IST - Architecture, Platforms, and Integration
> > > > > > > University of California, Berkeley
> > > > > > > (510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
> > > > > > > http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
> > > > > > > Follow me on twitter @accessaces
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Colin Osterhout
> > > > > > Website Coordinator, University of Alaska Southeast
> > > > > > = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > > > > > 907-796-6576
> > > > > >
> > > > > > For fastest response for your web needs, please email
> > > > > > = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = .
> > > > > >
> > > > > > <http://uas.alaska.edu/>;
> > > > > > [image: Like UAS on Facebook] <https://facebook.com/UASALASKA>
> > > > > > [image: Follow along with UAS on Instagram]
> > > > > > <https://www.instagram.com/uasoutheast/>
> > > > > > [image: Follow UAS on Twitter] <https://twitter.com/uasoutheast>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > >

From: Peter Krautzberger
Date: Wed, Oct 30 2019 2:05PM
Subject: Re: why is it so hard to read the aria spec
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi all,

To add to what James already wrote (all of which I agree with), I also made
a comment on Leonie's issue to point out that the headings in the "Note"
components create noise when navigating by headings. But as James already
wrote that kind of componnt is part of the spec infrastructure.

I would add that role=note is just a particularly unfortunate term to look
for in specs. Still, obviously specs can do better.

Best,
Peter.

Am Mi., 30. Okt. 2019 um 20:24 Uhr schrieb L Snider < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >:

> Hi James,
>
> Thanks for the clarification. I wondered if that page was in the
> middle of flux, so that is why I put the 'ifs' in my message.
>
> Cheers
>
> Lisa
>
> On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 3:18 PM James Nurthen < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> >
> > Lisa,
> > We don't take that view. If the document structure is causing the
> document
> > to be harder to use then we should fix that.
> > When there is an issue with the spec please file an issue at
> > https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues
> >
> > I think where Peter was going is that the ARIA specification should
> > probably not be the first place web developers look for ARIA
> information. I
> > agree that the Authoring Practices document is more appropriate for most
> > audiences but that doesn't mean the spec structure should not be
> improved.
> >
> > In response to this email thread Léonie filed one issue last night -
> > https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1108
> > I won't be able to deal with it immediately as we are in the middle of
> > wrapping up a release and this will require scripting changes in some of
> > the supporting infrastructure but now it is logged we know that the issue
> > exists.
> >
> > Regards,
> > James
> >
> > On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 10:31 AM L Snider < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> >
> > > It is interesting if they take that view, and if that is why they
> > > haven't made the web page accessible...I would be curious to know if
> > > that is the case. If so, that is basically saying that devs can't be
> > > blind, Deaf-Blind or have low vision and use AT themselves, which is
> > > far from the reality...
> > >
> > > Cheers
> > >
> > > Lisa
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 6:23 PM Lucy GRECO < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > peter that does nt mean that the document it self should not be
> layed
> > > > out in a way that makes it more accessible and useable why why why is
> > > there
> > > > so many headings with the text of note this kind of brakes the hole
> point
> > > > of navigating by hedding
> > > > Lucia Greco
> > > > Web Accessibility Evangelist
> > > > IST - Architecture, Platforms, and Integration
> > > > University of California, Berkeley
> > > > (510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
> > > > http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
> > > > Follow me on twitter @accessaces
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 2:08 PM Peter Krautzberger <
> > > = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi Lucy,
> > > > >
> > > > > While the ARIA WG is definitely aware that the spec's readability
> can
> > > be
> > > > > improved, the main challenge is probably that the ARIA spec is not
> > > > > primarily meant for authors but for browser and AT developers.
> > > > >
> > > > > To quote the overview at [1]:
> > > > >
> > > > > "WAI-ARIA 1.1 technical specification [...] is primarily for
> > > developers of
> > > > > Web browsers, assistive technologies, and other user agents;
> > > developers of
> > > > > Web technologies (technical specifications); and developers of
> > > > > accessibility evaluation tools."
> > > > >
> > > > > Best,
> > > > > Peter.
> > > > >
> > > > > [1] https://www.w3.org/WAI/standards-guidelines/aria/
> > > > >
> > > > > Am Di., 29. Okt. 2019 um 21:11 Uhr schrieb Lucy GRECO <
> > > = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > > > > >:
> > > > >
> > > > > > this is the page I was looking at
> > > > > > https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.1/#note
> > > > > >
> > > > > > yes your link was easy to read much better but i never found
> the
> > > role
> > > > > of
> > > > > > note there will look more later
> > > > > > Lucia Greco
> > > > > > Web Accessibility Evangelist
> > > > > > IST - Architecture, Platforms, and Integration
> > > > > > University of California, Berkeley
> > > > > > (510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
> > > > > > http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
> > > > > > Follow me on twitter @accessaces
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 1:00 PM Colin Osterhout <
> > > = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Have you checked out the WAI-ARIA Authoring Practices
> > > > > > > <https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices-1.1/> as a more
> > > practical
> > > > > > guide
> > > > > > > to authoring using ARIA?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Colin
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 11:46 AM Lucy GRECO <
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > hello: i just was sent a link to to a part of the aria spec
> and
> > > i
> > > > > have
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > say that was a reely horrendous task to read and i never did
> find
> > > > > what
> > > > > > i
> > > > > > > > needed.
> > > > > > > > wile looking throu the page i saw at least 4 heddings at h4
> > > that
> > > > > said
> > > > > > > > note and i stoped looking at 5 h5 that also were labled
> note. for
> > > > > > crying
> > > > > > > > out lowd can't we make this stuff better to read
> > > > > > > > Lucia Greco
> > > > > > > > Web Accessibility Evangelist
> > > > > > > > IST - Architecture, Platforms, and Integration
> > > > > > > > University of California, Berkeley
> > > > > > > > (510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
> > > > > > > > http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
> > > > > > > > Follow me on twitter @accessaces
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > Colin Osterhout
> > > > > > > Website Coordinator, University of Alaska Southeast
> > > > > > > = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > > > > > > 907-796-6576
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > For fastest response for your web needs, please email
> > > > > > > = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = .
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > <http://uas.alaska.edu/>;
> > > > > > > [image: Like UAS on Facebook] <https://facebook.com/UASALASKA>
> > > > > > > [image: Follow along with UAS on Instagram]
> > > > > > > <https://www.instagram.com/uasoutheast/>
> > > > > > > [image: Follow UAS on Twitter] <
> https://twitter.com/uasoutheast>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >

From: Patrick H. Lauke
Date: Wed, Oct 30 2019 2:09PM
Subject: Re: why is it so hard to read the aria spec
← Previous message | Next message →

On 29/10/2019 19:45, Lucy GRECO wrote:
> hello: i just was sent a link to to a part of the aria spec and i have to
> say that was a reely horrendous task to read and i never did find what i
> needed.
> wile looking throu the page i saw at least 4 heddings at h4 that said
> note and i stoped looking at 5 h5 that also were labled note. for crying
> out lowd can't we make this stuff better to read

I'd say though that the ARIA spec has, by its very nature, a fairly deep
and complex structure to begin with, going down to main section headings
at h2, h3 and even h4. Notes are then given their own heading, and it
then happens to end up with lots of h4s and h5s with that heading text.
While in isolation those headings are probably confusing, they do take
their context from their parent heading. So if you come across an h4
titled "Note" it's worth looking at the preceding h3 to understand the
context under which that note lives (lest somebody got the impression
that headings need to make sense out of context and in isolation
themselves).

P
--
Patrick H. Lauke

www.splintered.co.uk | https://github.com/patrickhlauke
http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | http://redux.deviantart.com
twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke

From: Lucy GRECO
Date: Wed, Oct 30 2019 2:25PM
Subject: Re: why is it so hard to read the aria spec
← Previous message | Next message →

hello:
sadly i think the answer it self is in the thing i was actually looking
for. if these were notes and every thing indicates that they were why are
they them selves not marked up as the vary role i was trying to
understand.

the problem with your comment about looking back up at the h3 before the
h4 works only so far.. what if that h3 it self is note witch yes i did find
that. sadly.
sadly all this came up because i wanted to find the best way to have a
text book application creat foot notes. we first thought that complementary
would work but found it had a bug when beeing implemented in that the
screenreader did not let the user know when the foot note ended and the
main content began. so i whent to the screen reader and asked them to fix
and they said its by design. and suggested note be used in sted. and i
still don't understand what the perpus of note is. after all this
conversation. lucy
Lucia Greco
Web Accessibility Evangelist
IST - Architecture, Platforms, and Integration
University of California, Berkeley
(510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
Follow me on twitter @accessaces



On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 1:09 PM Patrick H. Lauke < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:

> On 29/10/2019 19:45, Lucy GRECO wrote:
> > hello: i just was sent a link to to a part of the aria spec and i have
> to
> > say that was a reely horrendous task to read and i never did find what i
> > needed.
> > wile looking throu the page i saw at least 4 heddings at h4 that said
> > note and i stoped looking at 5 h5 that also were labled note. for crying
> > out lowd can't we make this stuff better to read
>
> I'd say though that the ARIA spec has, by its very nature, a fairly deep
> and complex structure to begin with, going down to main section headings
> at h2, h3 and even h4. Notes are then given their own heading, and it
> then happens to end up with lots of h4s and h5s with that heading text.
> While in isolation those headings are probably confusing, they do take
> their context from their parent heading. So if you come across an h4
> titled "Note" it's worth looking at the preceding h3 to understand the
> context under which that note lives (lest somebody got the impression
> that headings need to make sense out of context and in isolation
> themselves).
>
> P
> --
> Patrick H. Lauke
>
> www.splintered.co.uk | https://github.com/patrickhlauke
> http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | http://redux.deviantart.com
> twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke
> > > > >

From: James Nurthen
Date: Wed, Oct 30 2019 2:55PM
Subject: Re: why is it so hard to read the aria spec
← Previous message | Next message →

Lucy,
The notes are marked as role=note in the Editor's Draft. They were not at
the time ARIA 1.1 was published nor in the current Working Draft of ARIA
1.2. We cannot modify specifications once they are published but the next
working draft of ARIA 1.2 should include this fix.

For footnotes I'd recommend the role=doc-footnote -
https://www.w3.org/TR/dpub-aria-1.0/#doc-footnote - this is what it is
intended for.

Regards,
James

On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 1:26 PM Lucy GRECO < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> hello:
> sadly i think the answer it self is in the thing i was actually looking
> for. if these were notes and every thing indicates that they were why are
> they them selves not marked up as the vary role i was trying to
> understand.
>
> the problem with your comment about looking back up at the h3 before the
> h4 works only so far.. what if that h3 it self is note witch yes i did find
> that. sadly.
> sadly all this came up because i wanted to find the best way to have a
> text book application creat foot notes. we first thought that complementary
> would work but found it had a bug when beeing implemented in that the
> screenreader did not let the user know when the foot note ended and the
> main content began. so i whent to the screen reader and asked them to fix
> and they said its by design. and suggested note be used in sted. and i
> still don't understand what the perpus of note is. after all this
> conversation. lucy
> Lucia Greco
> Web Accessibility Evangelist
> IST - Architecture, Platforms, and Integration
> University of California, Berkeley
> (510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
> http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
> Follow me on twitter @accessaces
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 1:09 PM Patrick H. Lauke < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> wrote:
>
> > On 29/10/2019 19:45, Lucy GRECO wrote:
> > > hello: i just was sent a link to to a part of the aria spec and i have
> > to
> > > say that was a reely horrendous task to read and i never did find what
> i
> > > needed.
> > > wile looking throu the page i saw at least 4 heddings at h4 that
> said
> > > note and i stoped looking at 5 h5 that also were labled note. for
> crying
> > > out lowd can't we make this stuff better to read
> >
> > I'd say though that the ARIA spec has, by its very nature, a fairly deep
> > and complex structure to begin with, going down to main section headings
> > at h2, h3 and even h4. Notes are then given their own heading, and it
> > then happens to end up with lots of h4s and h5s with that heading text.
> > While in isolation those headings are probably confusing, they do take
> > their context from their parent heading. So if you come across an h4
> > titled "Note" it's worth looking at the preceding h3 to understand the
> > context under which that note lives (lest somebody got the impression
> > that headings need to make sense out of context and in isolation
> > themselves).
> >
> > P
> > --
> > Patrick H. Lauke
> >
> > www.splintered.co.uk | https://github.com/patrickhlauke
> > http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | http://redux.deviantart.com
> > twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > >

From: Lucy GRECO
Date: Wed, Oct 30 2019 3:18PM
Subject: Re: why is it so hard to read the aria spec
← Previous message | Next message →

that does look like what we need to use thanks. however do you have a
working example so i can test and see how it behaves with AT.
Lucia Greco
Web Accessibility Evangelist
IST - Architecture, Platforms, and Integration
University of California, Berkeley
(510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
Follow me on twitter @accessaces



On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 1:55 PM James Nurthen < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Lucy,
> The notes are marked as role=note in the Editor's Draft. They were not at
> the time ARIA 1.1 was published nor in the current Working Draft of ARIA
> 1.2. We cannot modify specifications once they are published but the next
> working draft of ARIA 1.2 should include this fix.
>
> For footnotes I'd recommend the role=doc-footnote -
> https://www.w3.org/TR/dpub-aria-1.0/#doc-footnote - this is what it is
> intended for.
>
> Regards,
> James
>
> On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 1:26 PM Lucy GRECO < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> > hello:
> > sadly i think the answer it self is in the thing i was actually looking
> > for. if these were notes and every thing indicates that they were why are
> > they them selves not marked up as the vary role i was trying to
> > understand.
> >
> > the problem with your comment about looking back up at the h3 before the
> > h4 works only so far.. what if that h3 it self is note witch yes i did
> find
> > that. sadly.
> > sadly all this came up because i wanted to find the best way to have a
> > text book application creat foot notes. we first thought that
> complementary
> > would work but found it had a bug when beeing implemented in that the
> > screenreader did not let the user know when the foot note ended and the
> > main content began. so i whent to the screen reader and asked them to fix
> > and they said its by design. and suggested note be used in sted. and i
> > still don't understand what the perpus of note is. after all this
> > conversation. lucy
> > Lucia Greco
> > Web Accessibility Evangelist
> > IST - Architecture, Platforms, and Integration
> > University of California, Berkeley
> > (510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
> > http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
> > Follow me on twitter @accessaces
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 1:09 PM Patrick H. Lauke < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> >
> > wrote:
> >
> > > On 29/10/2019 19:45, Lucy GRECO wrote:
> > > > hello: i just was sent a link to to a part of the aria spec and i
> have
> > > to
> > > > say that was a reely horrendous task to read and i never did find
> what
> > i
> > > > needed.
> > > > wile looking throu the page i saw at least 4 heddings at h4 that
> > said
> > > > note and i stoped looking at 5 h5 that also were labled note. for
> > crying
> > > > out lowd can't we make this stuff better to read
> > >
> > > I'd say though that the ARIA spec has, by its very nature, a fairly
> deep
> > > and complex structure to begin with, going down to main section
> headings
> > > at h2, h3 and even h4. Notes are then given their own heading, and it
> > > then happens to end up with lots of h4s and h5s with that heading text.
> > > While in isolation those headings are probably confusing, they do take
> > > their context from their parent heading. So if you come across an h4
> > > titled "Note" it's worth looking at the preceding h3 to understand the
> > > context under which that note lives (lest somebody got the impression
> > > that headings need to make sense out of context and in isolation
> > > themselves).
> > >
> > > P
> > > --
> > > Patrick H. Lauke
> > >
> > > www.splintered.co.uk | https://github.com/patrickhlauke
> > > http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | http://redux.deviantart.com
> > > twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > >

From: James Nurthen
Date: Wed, Oct 30 2019 3:50PM
Subject: Re: why is it so hard to read the aria spec
← Previous message | No next message

Sorry I don't.
I wasn't very involved in DPUB-ARIA. Digital Publishing folks would
probably know better than me.


On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 2:18 PM Lucy GRECO < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> that does look like what we need to use thanks. however do you have a
> working example so i can test and see how it behaves with AT.
> Lucia Greco
> Web Accessibility Evangelist
> IST - Architecture, Platforms, and Integration
> University of California, Berkeley
> (510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
> http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
> Follow me on twitter @accessaces
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 1:55 PM James Nurthen < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> > Lucy,
> > The notes are marked as role=note in the Editor's Draft. They were not at
> > the time ARIA 1.1 was published nor in the current Working Draft of ARIA
> > 1.2. We cannot modify specifications once they are published but the next
> > working draft of ARIA 1.2 should include this fix.
> >
> > For footnotes I'd recommend the role=doc-footnote -
> > https://www.w3.org/TR/dpub-aria-1.0/#doc-footnote - this is what it is
> > intended for.
> >
> > Regards,
> > James
> >
> > On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 1:26 PM Lucy GRECO < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> >
> > > hello:
> > > sadly i think the answer it self is in the thing i was actually
> looking
> > > for. if these were notes and every thing indicates that they were why
> are
> > > they them selves not marked up as the vary role i was trying to
> > > understand.
> > >
> > > the problem with your comment about looking back up at the h3 before
> the
> > > h4 works only so far.. what if that h3 it self is note witch yes i did
> > find
> > > that. sadly.
> > > sadly all this came up because i wanted to find the best way to have
> a
> > > text book application creat foot notes. we first thought that
> > complementary
> > > would work but found it had a bug when beeing implemented in that the
> > > screenreader did not let the user know when the foot note ended and the
> > > main content began. so i whent to the screen reader and asked them to
> fix
> > > and they said its by design. and suggested note be used in sted.
> and i
> > > still don't understand what the perpus of note is. after all this
> > > conversation. lucy
> > > Lucia Greco
> > > Web Accessibility Evangelist
> > > IST - Architecture, Platforms, and Integration
> > > University of California, Berkeley
> > > (510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
> > > http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
> > > Follow me on twitter @accessaces
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 1:09 PM Patrick H. Lauke <
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > >
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > On 29/10/2019 19:45, Lucy GRECO wrote:
> > > > > hello: i just was sent a link to to a part of the aria spec and i
> > have
> > > > to
> > > > > say that was a reely horrendous task to read and i never did find
> > what
> > > i
> > > > > needed.
> > > > > wile looking throu the page i saw at least 4 heddings at h4 that
> > > said
> > > > > note and i stoped looking at 5 h5 that also were labled note. for
> > > crying
> > > > > out lowd can't we make this stuff better to read
> > > >
> > > > I'd say though that the ARIA spec has, by its very nature, a fairly
> > deep
> > > > and complex structure to begin with, going down to main section
> > headings
> > > > at h2, h3 and even h4. Notes are then given their own heading, and it
> > > > then happens to end up with lots of h4s and h5s with that heading
> text.
> > > > While in isolation those headings are probably confusing, they do
> take
> > > > their context from their parent heading. So if you come across an h4
> > > > titled "Note" it's worth looking at the preceding h3 to understand
> the
> > > > context under which that note lives (lest somebody got the impression
> > > > that headings need to make sense out of context and in isolation
> > > > themselves).
> > > >
> > > > P
> > > > --
> > > > Patrick H. Lauke
> > > >
> > > > www.splintered.co.uk | https://github.com/patrickhlauke
> > > > http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | http://redux.deviantart.com
> > > > twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > >