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Thread: Landmarks
Number of posts in this thread: 22 (In chronological order)
From: Swift, Daniel P.
Date: Tue, Jan 14 2020 10:52AM
Subject: Landmarks
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I'm a little late getting into landmarks. I have a follow-up question to this thread. Is it redundant and unnecessary to include both the landmark and the HTML5 element? For example, is there any harm (from a SR perspective or otherwise) of using <header role="banner"> or <main role="main"> for instance? In my reading, it seems like redundancy is okay, but I know that from past experience, having the SR repeat the same things multiple times is obviously a bad thing.
Thanks!
Dan Swift
Senior Web Specialist
University Communications and Marketing
West Chester University
610.738.0589
From: Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Date: Tue, Jan 14 2020 11:06AM
Subject: Re: Landmarks
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For these particular landmarks I don't see the risk, in fact it may be
good to reinforce the HTML5 elements with the appropriate ARIA
landmark attribute.
On 1/14/20, Swift, Daniel P. < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> I'm a little late getting into landmarks. I have a follow-up question to
> this thread. Is it redundant and unnecessary to include both the landmark
> and the HTML5 element? For example, is there any harm (from a SR
> perspective or otherwise) of using <header role="banner"> or <main
> role="main"> for instance? In my reading, it seems like redundancy is okay,
> but I know that from past experience, having the SR repeat the same things
> multiple times is obviously a bad thing.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Dan Swift
> Senior Web Specialist
> University Communications and Marketing
> West Chester University
> 610.738.0589
>
>
From: Swift, Daniel P.
Date: Tue, Jan 14 2020 12:44PM
Subject: Re: Landmarks
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Awesome - thanks for the feedback, Birkir!
Dan Swift
Senior Web Specialist
University Communications and Marketing
West Chester University
610.738.0589
From: Christine Hogenkamp
Date: Tue, Jan 14 2020 12:46PM
Subject: Re: Landmarks
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For what it's worth, I just happened to test this in NVDA, and if the
landmark doesn't have role="main" etc used, it doesn't show up in the
Elements List section for Landmarks. It may seem redundant to have both
but does appear necessary/not redundant for some assistive devices.
--
*Christine Hogenkamp*
Front-end Developer
CONTEXT CREATIVE
317 ADELAIDE ST. W., #500 | TORONTO, ON CANADA | M5V 1P9
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On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 2:02 PM < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: "Swift, Daniel P." < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2020 17:52:56 +0000
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Landmarks
> I'm a little late getting into landmarks. I have a follow-up question to
> this thread. Is it redundant and unnecessary to include both the landmark
> and the HTML5 element? For example, is there any harm (from a SR
> perspective or otherwise) of using <header role="banner"> or <main
> role="main"> for instance? In my reading, it seems like redundancy is
> okay, but I know that from past experience, having the SR repeat the same
> things multiple times is obviously a bad thing.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Dan Swift
> Senior Web Specialist
> University Communications and Marketing
> West Chester University
> 610.738.0589
>
>
From: Greg Jellin
Date: Tue, Jan 14 2020 12:57PM
Subject: Re: Landmarks
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Christine,
Are you saying that if the landmark doesn't have a role=main in addition
to the native HTML <main> it doesn't show up in the elements list for
NVDA? I just tested and <main> was sufficient to be included in the
elements list, as was <main role="main"> and <div role="main">. All
three of those behaved the same for me. Note, I used Chrome for this.
What browser are you seeing this on?
Greg
On 1/14/2020 11:46 AM, Christine Hogenkamp wrote:
> For what it's worth, I just happened to test this in NVDA, and if the
> landmark doesn't have role="main" etc used, it doesn't show up in the
> Elements List section for Landmarks. It may seem redundant to have both
> but does appear necessary/not redundant for some assistive devices.
>
From: Guy Hickling
Date: Tue, Jan 14 2020 1:38PM
Subject: Re: Landmarks
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On the one hand, adding the role attributes causes the double announcements
you mention; not terribly important but it does detract from a clean
rendition of the page. It also complicates the markup for developers, and
we want to encourage developers to use landmarks without making them
unnecessarily complicated - I think developer usability is quite an
important consideration.
And on the other hand, this practice was started only for backwards
compatibility with earlier browser and assistive device versions that did
not handle the new HTML5 elements. But browsers and screen readers have
been recognising them for enough years now; HTML5 and these elements became
a recommendation six years ago in 2014, and browsers were quick to take
them on board.
So it seems to me this practice of adding role attributes is no longer
necessary. Certainly I have stopped recommending it in audit reports.
Anyone still using a screen reader version old enough to not recognise
these elements will be missing far more important stuff than landmarks! -
quite a lot of ARIA, for instance. But if anyone knows of screen readers
that old still being used, please correct me.
Regards,
Guy Hickling
From: Murphy, Sean
Date: Tue, Jan 14 2020 3:22PM
Subject: Re: Landmarks
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I agree and can introduce problems with users trying to understand what is going on where they are not experienced users with Web. There is a lot of folks like this.
Sean
From: glen walker
Date: Tue, Jan 14 2020 3:34PM
Subject: Re: Landmarks
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I've never heard a landmark read twice just because you have a redundant
role on the html element. Note that the official HTML specs say to *not*
set the role if you want the default. For example,
https://www.w3.org/TR/html53/grouping-content.html#the-main-element.
"Allowed ARIA role attribute values: main role (default - do not set). "
As far as landmarks not showing up in NVDA's landmarks dialog, that can
happen for region landmarks if the landmark does not have an aria-label.
Side note on aria-label support,
https://www.w3.org/TR/using-aria/#label-support. The second bullet point
says that aria-label isn't well supported on region landmarks (<section>
elements) but I haven't experienced that.
From: Bossley, Peter A.
Date: Tue, Jan 14 2020 7:30PM
Subject: Re: Landmarks
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Adding a role to a native element that already inherits that role should not cause double reading. Where I see that double reading issue most often is where a container element nested inside the native role has the additional duplicated role assigned to it. I'm not sure the double specification is really necessary with modern browsers and AT, but if you want to make sure it wouldn't be an issue putting an example together and using an API inspector should be able to show you what the accessibility tree from the browser is actually exposing. I find this useful when I can't figure out, after code/DOM inspection, if a screen reader is misbehaving or if it is the browser.
From: Swift, Daniel P.
Date: Wed, Jan 22 2020 8:59AM
Subject: Re: multiple navigation landmarks
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Spring-boarding from my previous thread ... I'm in the process of updating our site templates with landmarks and I have a question regarding the quantity of navigation landmarks.
Let me preface by saying that the code surrounding our navigation needs a lot of work which will ultimately greatly reduce issue. That being said, currently, we have our global navigation, subsite navigation, global mobile navigation, and breadcrumb navigation. Is adding the navigation landmark (with appropriate identifiers) appropriate for all four of these or is that too much? I think the desktop/mobile global naves and the subsite naves should all have the role, but I'm on the fence about the breadcrumbs.
Thoughts?
Dan Swift
Senior Web Specialist
University Communications and Marketing
West Chester University
610.738.0589
From: Brian Lovely
Date: Wed, Jan 22 2020 9:08AM
Subject: Re: [External Sender] multiple navigation landmarks
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I wouldn't consider a breadcrumb a navigational element, unless maybe if
all the increments were links.
blogs | fred's blog | fred's thoughts on frogs, and you could activate any
of those to go back up the tree structure. Then maybe it's a navigation.
Sometimes a list of links is just a list of links.
On Wed, Jan 22, 2020 at 11:00 AM Swift, Daniel P. < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Spring-boarding from my previous thread ... I'm in the process of updating
> our site templates with landmarks and I have a question regarding the
> quantity of navigation landmarks.
>
> Let me preface by saying that the code surrounding our navigation needs a
> lot of work which will ultimately greatly reduce issue. That being said,
> currently, we have our global navigation, subsite navigation, global mobile
> navigation, and breadcrumb navigation. Is adding the navigation landmark
> (with appropriate identifiers) appropriate for all four of these or is that
> too much? I think the desktop/mobile global naves and the subsite naves
> should all have the role, but I'm on the fence about the breadcrumbs.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Dan Swift
> Senior Web Specialist
> University Communications and Marketing
> West Chester University
> 610.738.0589
>
> > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://list.webaim.org/__;!!EFVe01R3CjU!PqONaqpT1trXNGI7cPdksD3A_rDUMNpUIcNN4_Pm5ksnv7K6PbU6hbvn1azsex5qTfxPdg$
> List archives at
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://webaim.org/discussion/archives__;!!EFVe01R3CjU!PqONaqpT1trXNGI7cPdksD3A_rDUMNpUIcNN4_Pm5ksnv7K6PbU6hbvn1azsex762xahVA$
> >
--
*Brian Lovely*
Capital One Digital Accessibility
804.389.1064
The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and/or proprietary to Capital One and/or its affiliates and may only be used solely in performance of work or services for Capital One. The information transmitted herewith is intended only for use by the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, copying or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from your computer.
From: wolfgang.berndorfer
Date: Wed, Jan 22 2020 9:45AM
Subject: Re: multiple navigation landmarks
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For me its not a question of quantity, but of precise captioning. <nav
aria-label="breadcrumbs"> gives me helpful info, when I list up landmarks
with my SR to get an overview or to navigate effectively. (in jaws with
jaws+ctrl+r).
Id be interested, which SC could apply: 2.4.6, 2.4.10, 4.1.2 or even 1.3.1?
Wolfgang
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > Im Auftrag von
Swift, Daniel P.
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 22. Jänner 2020 17:00
An: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Betreff: [WebAIM] multiple navigation landmarks
Spring-boarding from my previous thread ... I'm in the process of updating
our site templates with landmarks and I have a question regarding the
quantity of navigation landmarks.
Let me preface by saying that the code surrounding our navigation needs a
lot of work which will ultimately greatly reduce issue. That being said,
currently, we have our global navigation, subsite navigation, global mobile
navigation, and breadcrumb navigation. Is adding the navigation landmark
(with appropriate identifiers) appropriate for all four of these or is that
too much? I think the desktop/mobile global naves and the subsite naves
should all have the role, but I'm on the fence about the breadcrumbs.
Thoughts?
Dan Swift
Senior Web Specialist
University Communications and Marketing
West Chester University
610.738.0589
http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
From: wolfgang.berndorfer
Date: Wed, Jan 22 2020 10:04AM
Subject: Re: [External Sender] multiple navigation landmarks
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Shouldnt breadcrumb items always be linked (except for the current page)?
Id consider a list of links as just a list of links inside the *main-area*
except for TOC.
Outside of the main-area, Id appreciate each list of links to be a labelled
nav in the template.
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > Im Auftrag von
Brian Lovely via WebAIM-Forum
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 22. Jänner 2020 17:09
An: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Cc: Brian Lovely < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Betreff: Re: [WebAIM] [External Sender] multiple navigation landmarks
I wouldn't consider a breadcrumb a navigational element, unless maybe if all
the increments were links.
blogs | fred's blog | fred's thoughts on frogs, and you could activate any
of those to go back up the tree structure. Then maybe it's a navigation.
Sometimes a list of links is just a list of links.
On Wed, Jan 22, 2020 at 11:00 AM Swift, Daniel P. < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Spring-boarding from my previous thread ... I'm in the process of
> updating our site templates with landmarks and I have a question
> regarding the quantity of navigation landmarks.
>
> Let me preface by saying that the code surrounding our navigation
> needs a lot of work which will ultimately greatly reduce issue. That
> being said, currently, we have our global navigation, subsite
> navigation, global mobile navigation, and breadcrumb navigation. Is
> adding the navigation landmark (with appropriate identifiers)
> appropriate for all four of these or is that too much? I think the
> desktop/mobile global naves and the subsite naves should all have the
role, but I'm on the fence about the breadcrumbs.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Dan Swift
> Senior Web Specialist
> University Communications and Marketing West Chester University
> 610.738.0589
>
> > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://list.webaim.org/__;!!EFVe01R3CjU!Pq
> ONaqpT1trXNGI7cPdksD3A_rDUMNpUIcNN4_Pm5ksnv7K6PbU6hbvn1azsex5qTfxPdg$
> List archives at
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://webaim.org/discussion/archives__;!!
> EFVe01R3CjU!PqONaqpT1trXNGI7cPdksD3A_rDUMNpUIcNN4_Pm5ksnv7K6PbU6hbvn1a
> zsex762xahVA$ >
--
*Brian Lovely*
Capital One Digital Accessibility
804.389.1064
The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and/or proprietary
to Capital One and/or its affiliates and may only be used solely in
performance of work or services for Capital One. The information transmitted
herewith is intended only for use by the individual or entity to which it is
addressed. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you
are hereby notified that any review, retransmission, dissemination,
distribution, copying or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance
upon this information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this
communication in error, please contact the sender and delete the material
from your computer.
http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
From: glen walker
Date: Wed, Jan 22 2020 11:12AM
Subject: Re: [External Sender] multiple navigation landmarks
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Even though landmarks become less useful as the number increases, I would
mark any navigational area a <nav aria-label="...">. I consider (personal
opinion) a breadcrumb trail a navigational element. The authoring practice
defines a breadcrumb trail as "a list of links" and a "breadcrumb trail is
contained within a navigation landmark region" (
https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices/#breadcrumb).
Landmarks can be used to bypass blocks of elements on the page (at least
for screen reader users - would be nice if user agents allowed keyboard
users to take advantage of them) but the more landmarks you have, the more
they'll have to be navigated through to get to your destination, but I
suppose that's only true if you are navigating sequentially through them
(NVDA+D or JAWS+R). If you use the landmark/region list in NVDA/JAWS, then
you can jump quickly to a specific landmark.
From: Swift, Daniel P.
Date: Wed, Jan 22 2020 11:26AM
Subject: Re: [External Sender] multiple navigation landmarks
← Previous message | Next message →
This was all very helpful - thanks, everyone!
Dan Swift
Senior Web Specialist
University Communications and Marketing
West Chester University
610.738.0589
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of glen walker
Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2020 1:12 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] [External Sender] multiple navigation landmarks
Even though landmarks become less useful as the number increases, I would
mark any navigational area a <nav aria-label="...">. I consider (personal
opinion) a breadcrumb trail a navigational element. The authoring practice
defines a breadcrumb trail as "a list of links" and a "breadcrumb trail is
contained within a navigation landmark region" (
https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices/#breadcrumb)<https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices/#breadcrumb)>.
Landmarks can be used to bypass blocks of elements on the page (at least
for screen reader users - would be nice if user agents allowed keyboard
users to take advantage of them) but the more landmarks you have, the more
they'll have to be navigated through to get to your destination, but I
suppose that's only true if you are navigating sequentially through them
(NVDA+D or JAWS+R). If you use the landmark/region list in NVDA/JAWS, then
you can jump quickly to a specific landmark.
From: Murphy, Sean
Date: Wed, Jan 22 2020 4:53PM
Subject: Re: multiple navigation landmarks
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I would be interested if there is any real guidelines on the number? As I have seen previous discussions on this discussion with no end result. I would assume 1 main region, banner and footer. Navs, I would suggest this is 1 or more, assuming they are correctly labelled. Any other thoughts on this?
Sean
No
From: glen walker
Date: Wed, Jan 22 2020 5:15PM
Subject: Re: multiple navigation landmarks
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I don't have any real guidelines other than general experience. I've tried
to keep landmarks down to 7 or so. Four of those are the header, footer,
main, and nav. The others might be other types of nav (such as breadcrumb)
or regions.
From: Graham Armfield
Date: Thu, Jan 23 2020 2:21AM
Subject: Re: [External Sender] multiple navigation landmarks
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On Glen's point about keyboard users and landmarks, there are a couple of
browser extensions that can help sighted keyboard users take advantage of
the landmarks in a similar way to screen reader users can.
The first one is called Landmarks and is available for Chrome and Firefox.
The second one is called A11y Outline which I think is only available in
Firefox.
I wrote a blog post about this a while ago with full instructions for using
them with keyboards. See
https://www.hassellinclusion.com/blog/browser-extensions-deliver-landmark/
They're also useful during accessibility reviews to quickly see what
landmarks are present on a page.
Regards
Graham Armfield
coolfields.co.uk <http://www.coolfields.co.uk/>;
M:07905 590026
T: 01483 856613
@coolfields <https://twitter.com/coolfields>
On Wed, 22 Jan 2020 at 18:12, glen walker < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Even though landmarks become less useful as the number increases, I would
> mark any navigational area a <nav aria-label="...">. I consider (personal
> opinion) a breadcrumb trail a navigational element. The authoring practice
> defines a breadcrumb trail as "a list of links" and a "breadcrumb trail is
> contained within a navigation landmark region" (
> https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices/#breadcrumb).
>
> Landmarks can be used to bypass blocks of elements on the page (at least
> for screen reader users - would be nice if user agents allowed keyboard
> users to take advantage of them) but the more landmarks you have, the more
> they'll have to be navigated through to get to your destination, but I
> suppose that's only true if you are navigating sequentially through them
> (NVDA+D or JAWS+R). If you use the landmark/region list in NVDA/JAWS, then
> you can jump quickly to a specific landmark.
> > > > >
From: Mallory
Date: Thu, Jan 23 2020 4:46AM
Subject: Re: [External Sender] multiple navigation landmarks
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To Wolfgang's point, 1.3.6 mentions programmatically determining regions and to me this includes landmark regions.
cheers
_mallory
On Thu, Jan 23, 2020, at 10:21 AM, Graham Armfield wrote:
> On Glen's point about keyboard users and landmarks, there are a couple of
> browser extensions that can help sighted keyboard users take advantage of
> the landmarks in a similar way to screen reader users can.
>
> The first one is called Landmarks and is available for Chrome and Firefox.
> The second one is called A11y Outline which I think is only available in
> Firefox.
>
> I wrote a blog post about this a while ago with full instructions for using
> them with keyboards. See
> https://www.hassellinclusion.com/blog/browser-extensions-deliver-landmark/
>
> They're also useful during accessibility reviews to quickly see what
> landmarks are present on a page.
>
> Regards
> Graham Armfield
>
> coolfields.co.uk <http://www.coolfields.co.uk/>;
> M:07905 590026
> T: 01483 856613
> @coolfields <https://twitter.com/coolfields>
>
>
> On Wed, 22 Jan 2020 at 18:12, glen walker < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> > Even though landmarks become less useful as the number increases, I would
> > mark any navigational area a <nav aria-label="...">. I consider (personal
> > opinion) a breadcrumb trail a navigational element. The authoring practice
> > defines a breadcrumb trail as "a list of links" and a "breadcrumb trail is
> > contained within a navigation landmark region" (
> > https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices/#breadcrumb).
> >
> > Landmarks can be used to bypass blocks of elements on the page (at least
> > for screen reader users - would be nice if user agents allowed keyboard
> > users to take advantage of them) but the more landmarks you have, the more
> > they'll have to be navigated through to get to your destination, but I
> > suppose that's only true if you are navigating sequentially through them
> > (NVDA+D or JAWS+R). If you use the landmark/region list in NVDA/JAWS, then
> > you can jump quickly to a specific landmark.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > >
From: glen walker
Date: Thu, Jan 23 2020 2:21PM
Subject: Re: [External Sender] multiple navigation landmarks
← Previous message | Next message →
True, but it's AAA
On Thu, Jan 23, 2020 at 6:46 AM Mallory < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> To Wolfgang's point, 1.3.6 mentions programmatically determining regions
> and to me this includes landmark regions.
>
>
From: glen walker
Date: Thu, Jan 23 2020 2:22PM
Subject: Re: [External Sender] multiple navigation landmarks
← Previous message | Next message →
I was referring to user agent support. I know there are plugins that can
do all kinds of things but if a user goes to a physical location that has a
kiosk with the website, then they'd be limited to whatever was built into
the browser in the kiosk. They can't download a plugin.
On Thu, Jan 23, 2020 at 4:22 AM Graham Armfield <
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> On Glen's point about keyboard users and landmarks, there are a couple of
> browser extensions that can help sighted keyboard users take advantage of
> the landmarks in a similar way to screen reader users can.
>
>
From: Murphy, Sean
Date: Thu, Jan 23 2020 4:03PM
Subject: Re: [External Sender] multiple navigation landmarks
← Previous message | No next message
When I test for regions and similar type of elements. I do not test with plugins. As the average user out there might not know about the plugins.
Sean