E-mail List Archives

Search E-mail List Archives for

Number of posts in this thread: 5 (In chronological order)

From: Elizabeth Thomas
Date: Fri, Mar 17 2023 12:49PM
Subject: MathJax and NVDA
No previous message | Next message →

Another math question. First, my disclaimer: I specialize in document accessibility. I know HTML, but 90% of my time is spent on document accessibility (mostly PDFs). I do not know JavaScript…at all.
I wrote some equations in LaTeX in our CMS and am using MathJax to display them on the page. JAWS “sees” the equations and reads them correctly. However, when NVDA gets to the math, it just says “clickable” but won't open the math menu MathJax provides or read any of the expression. I enabled the assistive-Mml extension through the menu options in MathJax (though I think this might now be enabled by default), but NVDA is still not reading it. I did some searching and everything says NVDA needs MathPlayer to read MathML. Wiris, however, says MathPlayer only works on obsolete browsers so I don't think I should tell people using NVDA to download MathPlayer.
The questions:
1. Should NVDA read the equations and I just can't get it to work because I'm not a screen reader user and thus don't know how to do it?
2. If 1 is true, should I provide instructions for people using NVDA on the page so that they can read the math (for those who maybe don't often read math and thus might not know how to do it).
3. If 1 is false, does NVDA not read MathML ever and I need another way to present the math to people using NVDA (e.g., the equations written in words using some standard math syntax and grammar)?
Thanks in advance. Also, to follow up on my previous math question about unicode entities for negative numbers, I haven't found a solution yet. I will probably have to use some ARIA. (Doesn't help that my CMS text editor doesn't recognize <math> and always changes it to <p>, hence why I'm using MathJax in the first place).
-Elizabeth Thomas
Digital Accessibility Specialist
State of New Jersey

From: Noble, Stephen
Date: Fri, Mar 17 2023 1:10PM
Subject: Re: MathJax and NVDA
← Previous message | Next message →

You'll need to load the MathCAT add-on to NVDA: MathCAT (nvda-project.org)<https://addons.nvda-project.org/addons/MathCAT.en.html>

MathCAT is the new replacement for MathPlayer. One you add MathCAT to NVDA, it will read any MathML, regardless if it is native MathML in the web page or if MathJax is used to render LaTeX.

Hope that helps,

--Steve Noble
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
502-969-3088
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > on behalf of Elizabeth Thomas < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Friday, March 17, 2023 2:49 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: [WebAIM] MathJax and NVDA

CAUTION: This email originated from outside of our organization. Do not click links, open attachments, or respond unless you recognize the sender's email address and know the contents are safe.

Another math question. First, my disclaimer: I specialize in document accessibility. I know HTML, but 90% of my time is spent on document accessibility (mostly PDFs). I do not know JavaScript…at all.
I wrote some equations in LaTeX in our CMS and am using MathJax to display them on the page. JAWS “sees” the equations and reads them correctly. However, when NVDA gets to the math, it just says “clickable” but won't open the math menu MathJax provides or read any of the expression. I enabled the assistive-Mml extension through the menu options in MathJax (though I think this might now be enabled by default), but NVDA is still not reading it. I did some searching and everything says NVDA needs MathPlayer to read MathML. Wiris, however, says MathPlayer only works on obsolete browsers so I don't think I should tell people using NVDA to download MathPlayer.
The questions:
1. Should NVDA read the equations and I just can't get it to work because I'm not a screen reader user and thus don't know how to do it?
2. If 1 is true, should I provide instructions for people using NVDA on the page so that they can read the math (for those who maybe don't often read math and thus might not know how to do it).
3. If 1 is false, does NVDA not read MathML ever and I need another way to present the math to people using NVDA (e.g., the equations written in words using some standard math syntax and grammar)?
Thanks in advance. Also, to follow up on my previous math question about unicode entities for negative numbers, I haven't found a solution yet. I will probably have to use some ARIA. (Doesn't help that my CMS text editor doesn't recognize <math> and always changes it to <p>, hence why I'm using MathJax in the first place).
-Elizabeth Thomas
Digital Accessibility Specialist
State of New Jersey

From: David Farough
Date: Fri, Mar 17 2023 1:18PM
Subject: Re: MathJax and NVDA
← Previous message | Next message →

Good afternoon;
The following is taken from the NVDA 2022.4 user guide.
* snip *
7. Reading Mathematical Content
Using MathPlayer 4 from Design Science, NVDA can read and interactively navigate supported mathematical content. This requires that MathPlayer 4 is installed on the computer. MathPlayer is available as a free download from: https://www.dessci.com/en/products/mathplayer/. After installing MathPlayer, restart NVDA.

NVDA supports the following types of mathematical content:

MathML in Mozilla Firefox, Microsoft Internet Explorer and Google Chrome.
Microsoft Word 365 Modern Math Equations via UI automation: NVDA is able to read and interact with math equations in Microsoft Word 365/2016 build 14326 and higher. Note however that any previously created MathType equations must be first converted to Office Math. This can be done by selecting each and choosing "Equation Options", then "Convert to Office Math" in the context menu. Ensure your version of MathType is the latest version before doing this. Microsoft Word provides linear symbol-based navigation through the equations itself and supports inputting math using several syntaxes, including LateX. For further details, please see Linear format equations using UnicodeMath and LaTeX in Word
Microsoft Powerpoint, and older versions of Microsoft Word: NVDA can read and navigate MathType equations in both Microsoft Powerpoint and Microsoft word. MathType needs to be installed in order for this to work. The trial version is sufficient. It can be downloaded from https://www.dessci.com/en/products/mathtype/
Adobe Reader: Note that this is not an official standard yet, so there is currently no publicly available software that can produce this content.
Kindle Reader for PC: NVDA can read and navigate Math in Kindle for PC for books with accessible math.
When reading a document, NVDA will speak any supported mathematical content where it occurs. If you are using a braille display, it will also be displayed in braille.

From: Noble, Stephen
Date: Fri, Mar 17 2023 1:55PM
Subject: Re: MathJax and NVDA
← Previous message | Next message →

Just as a follow up to the MathPlayer vs. MathCAT discussion, I should mention that the old MathPlayer 4 remains available on the Wiris website, but it is no longer being developed and has not been updated for many years. Neil Soiffer, who was the chief architect of MathPlayer while he was at Design Science (the folks who also made MathType), has since then developed the open-source MathCAT add-on. You can read more at MathCAT: Math Capable Assistive Technology | MathCAT (nsoiffer.github.io)<https://nsoiffer.github.io/MathCAT/>

Neil Soiffer and I worked together (many years ago) at Design Science, and I was able to conduct a number of classroom-based research studies over the years where MathPlayer was used (as a "helper" to other TTS products or screen readers), which clearly showed its utility both for blind students but also for sighted students with reading disabilities. Our early studies garnered a lot of publicity in the education community. Education Week still has an old article on their website about this research: Math Study Evaluates Digital Aids (edweek.org)<https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/math-study-evaluates-digital-aids/2008/10?tmp65455193>

So...while you can still download and use MathPlayer 4, it is essentially obsolete for using with HTML content in browsers, although it will still work as a helper to NVDA. You may also still find MathPlayer useful as an add-on to 32-bit Microsoft Word, but as a consequence of Wiris no longer updating MathPlayer it was never updated to work with 64-bit Word. There's a bit of an old discussion where Neil Soiffer discusses all this and ends with the line, "...stay tuned for an open source replacement to MathPlayer..." See: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = | NVDA and math.<https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda/topic/84904907>

The open source replacement he referred to is now known as MathCAT.


--Steve Noble
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
502-969-3088
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > on behalf of David Farough < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Friday, March 17, 2023 3:18 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] MathJax and NVDA

CAUTION: This email originated from outside of our organization. Do not click links, open attachments, or respond unless you recognize the sender's email address and know the contents are safe.

Good afternoon;
The following is taken from the NVDA 2022.4 user guide.
* snip *
7. Reading Mathematical Content
Using MathPlayer 4 from Design Science, NVDA can read and interactively navigate supported mathematical content. This requires that MathPlayer 4 is installed on the computer. MathPlayer is available as a free download from: https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.dessci.com%2Fen%2Fproducts%2Fmathplayer%2F&data%7C01%7Csteve.noble%40louisville.edu%7C1b43240c6c674cd55a5a08db271c7055%7Cdd246e4a54344e158ae391ad9797b209%7C0%7C0%7C638146775317004616%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=DWGJ7S6m3chyo6OhUruY62LsurSZTSVd16OABKzEvVg%3D&reserved=0. After installing MathPlayer, restart NVDA.

NVDA supports the following types of mathematical content:

MathML in Mozilla Firefox, Microsoft Internet Explorer and Google Chrome.
Microsoft Word 365 Modern Math Equations via UI automation: NVDA is able to read and interact with math equations in Microsoft Word 365/2016 build 14326 and higher. Note however that any previously created MathType equations must be first converted to Office Math. This can be done by selecting each and choosing "Equation Options", then "Convert to Office Math" in the context menu. Ensure your version of MathType is the latest version before doing this. Microsoft Word provides linear symbol-based navigation through the equations itself and supports inputting math using several syntaxes, including LateX. For further details, please see Linear format equations using UnicodeMath and LaTeX in Word
Microsoft Powerpoint, and older versions of Microsoft Word: NVDA can read and navigate MathType equations in both Microsoft Powerpoint and Microsoft word. MathType needs to be installed in order for this to work. The trial version is sufficient. It can be downloaded from https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.dessci.com%2Fen%2Fproducts%2Fmathtype%2F&data%7C01%7Csteve.noble%40louisville.edu%7C1b43240c6c674cd55a5a08db271c7055%7Cdd246e4a54344e158ae391ad9797b209%7C0%7C0%7C638146775317004616%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=X8sXiLx1UrRGcRFwHQJYzsTA4FIiBQsVYvNAPb9pHI4%3D&reserved=0
Adobe Reader: Note that this is not an official standard yet, so there is currently no publicly available software that can produce this content.
Kindle Reader for PC: NVDA can read and navigate Math in Kindle for PC for books with accessible math.
When reading a document, NVDA will speak any supported mathematical content where it occurs. If you are using a braille display, it will also be displayed in braille.

From: Cervone, Gian Carlo (gcervone)
Date: Fri, Mar 17 2023 2:40PM
Subject: Re: MathJax and NVDA
← Previous message | No next message

Friends:

Here is some clarification in the MathJax situation from Davide P. Cervone, the developer:

> Because MathJax currently inserts MathML into the page that is hidden visually but available to the screen reader, any screen reader that understands MathML can be used to read the math expressions processed by MathJax. My understanding is that NVDA does that on its own, but MathCAT does a better job. On the other hand, with version 4, we are going to do away with the hidden MathML (it was a stop-gap measure, and will still remain as an option, but will be off by default) in favor of our own math-to-speech engine that should make it possible for all screen readers to read the math, even when they don't understand MathML.
>
Best regards,

-= GCC =-

Gian Carlo Cervone
Web Manager
SUNY Brockport
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = • 585-395-5073




> On Mar 17, 2023, at 3:55 PM, Noble, Stephen < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> Warning: Message from non-Brockport Email Server. Treat message, links, and attachments with extra care.
>
>
> Just as a follow up to the MathPlayer vs. MathCAT discussion, I should mention that the old MathPlayer 4 remains available on the Wiris website, but it is no longer being developed and has not been updated for many years. Neil Soiffer, who was the chief architect of MathPlayer while he was at Design Science (the folks who also made MathType), has since then developed the open-source MathCAT add-on. You can read more at MathCAT: Math Capable Assistive Technology | MathCAT (nsoiffer.github.io)<https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fnsoiffer.github.io%2FMathCAT%2F&data%7C01%7Cgcervone%40brockport.edu%7C06a66e3518b940c6e35308db272187ce%7C696ec4990f244fd9b691252a2884ef3b%7C0%7C0%7C638146797242394644%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=wj05TJoDt8HVGOZmL%2BBjUjWDZvOd0H921I0VraKqaZI%3D&reserved=0>
>
> Neil Soiffer and I worked together (many years ago) at Design Science, and I was able to conduct a number of classroom-based research studies over the years where MathPlayer was used (as a "helper" to other TTS products or screen readers), which clearly showed its utility both for blind students but also for sighted students with reading disabilities. Our early studies garnered a lot of publicity in the education community. Education Week still has an old article on their website about this research: Math Study Evaluates Digital Aids (edweek.org)<https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.edweek.org%2Fteaching-learning%2Fmath-study-evaluates-digital-aids%2F2008%2F10%3Ftmp%3D1865455193&data%7C01%7Cgcervone%40brockport.edu%7C06a66e3518b940c6e35308db272187ce%7C696ec4990f244fd9b691252a2884ef3b%7C0%7C0%7C638146797242394644%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=%2BrzVMB831eXkvHG4NBRuvhRK1rfTztoAEEMymBuWty4%3D&reserved=0>
>
> So...while you can still download and use MathPlayer 4, it is essentially obsolete for using with HTML content in browsers, although it will still work as a helper to NVDA. You may also still find MathPlayer useful as an add-on to 32-bit Microsoft Word, but as a consequence of Wiris no longer updating MathPlayer it was never updated to work with 64-bit Word. There's a bit of an old discussion where Neil Soiffer discusses all this and ends with the line, "...stay tuned for an open source replacement to MathPlayer..." See: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = | NVDA and math.<https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fnvda.groups.io%2Fg%2Fnvda%2Ftopic%2F84904907&data%7C01%7Cgcervone%40brockport.edu%7C06a66e3518b940c6e35308db272187ce%7C696ec4990f244fd9b691252a2884ef3b%7C0%7C0%7C638146797242394644%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=rHjw4p%2BfZzTyBrIwwgHFjLmB6UuTt7SmYzEeBYcpI0g%3D&reserved=0>
>
> The open source replacement he referred to is now known as MathCAT.
>
>
> --Steve Noble
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> 502-969-3088
> > From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > on behalf of David Farough < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Sent: Friday, March 17, 2023 3:18 PM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] MathJax and NVDA
>
> CAUTION: This email originated from outside of our organization. Do not click links, open attachments, or respond unless you recognize the sender's email address and know the contents are safe.
>
> Good afternoon;
> The following is taken from the NVDA 2022.4 user guide.
> * snip *
> 7. Reading Mathematical Content
> Using MathPlayer 4 from Design Science, NVDA can read and interactively navigate supported mathematical content. This requires that MathPlayer 4 is installed on the computer. MathPlayer is available as a free download from: https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.dessci.com%2Fen%2Fproducts%2Fmathplayer%2F&data%7C01%7Cgcervone%40brockport.edu%7C06a66e3518b940c6e35308db272187ce%7C696ec4990f244fd9b691252a2884ef3b%7C0%7C0%7C638146797242394644%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=TyZzWuaUXYI39d32eXxJH1u32gCPy5PvAkD7o3ntA1I%3D&reserved=0. After installing MathPlayer, restart NVDA.
>
> NVDA supports the following types of mathematical content:
>
> MathML in Mozilla Firefox, Microsoft Internet Explorer and Google Chrome.
> Microsoft Word 365 Modern Math Equations via UI automation: NVDA is able to read and interact with math equations in Microsoft Word 365/2016 build 14326 and higher. Note however that any previously created MathType equations must be first converted to Office Math. This can be done by selecting each and choosing "Equation Options", then "Convert to Office Math" in the context menu. Ensure your version of MathType is the latest version before doing this. Microsoft Word provides linear symbol-based navigation through the equations itself and supports inputting math using several syntaxes, including LateX. For further details, please see Linear format equations using UnicodeMath and LaTeX in Word
> Microsoft Powerpoint, and older versions of Microsoft Word: NVDA can read and navigate MathType equations in both Microsoft Powerpoint and Microsoft word. MathType needs to be installed in order for this to work. The trial version is sufficient. It can be downloaded from https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.dessci.com%2Fen%2Fproducts%2Fmathtype%2F&data%7C01%7Cgcervone%40brockport.edu%7C06a66e3518b940c6e35308db272187ce%7C696ec4990f244fd9b691252a2884ef3b%7C0%7C0%7C638146797242550865%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=XwzU9lYhXruOS3%2BudHnImVJm4ufKW36mH5dVnrfuutQ%3D&reserved=0
> Adobe Reader: Note that this is not an official standard yet, so there is currently no publicly available software that can produce this content.
> Kindle Reader for PC: NVDA can read and navigate Math in Kindle for PC for books with accessible math.
> When reading a document, NVDA will speak any supported mathematical content where it occurs. If you are using a braille display, it will also be displayed in braille.
>
>