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Number of posts in this thread: 17 (In chronological order)

From: Bishop, Jeff - (jeffbis)
Date: Mon, Aug 14 2023 4:21PM
Subject: Opening PDF, Word Documents or other sites like Dropbox, One Drive or Google Drive in a new window ...
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Hello Everyone,

I have of course read the guidelines posted by the W3C as it relates to the use of opening pages in a new window<https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/G200.html>, that being refrain from doing so unless there is a primary reason to do so. These reasons are very well documented in the supporting articles<https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/G201.html>.

So, in the case of:


* Sites like Dropbox, One Drive, Google Drive, Box, ETC.
* PDF documents
* Word documents



Do you feel that these should not be opened in their own window?



Thanks for any advice here.



Jeff Bishop

From: Lucy Greco
Date: Mon, Aug 14 2023 4:42PM
Subject: Re: Opening PDF, Word Documents or other sites like Dropbox, One Drive or Google Drive in a new window ...
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i feel that they should open in a new widow but more imprtently the user
should be told in some way that they will


Berkeley IT <https://technology.berkeley.edu/home>

Lucy Greco, Web Accessibility Evangelist

Campus IT Experience
Phone: (510) 289-6008 | Email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = |
https://dap.berkeley.edu Follow me on twitter @accessaces

We champion diversity. We act with integrity. We deliver. We innovate.



On Mon, Aug 14, 2023 at 3:21 PM Bishop, Jeff - (jeffbis) <
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Hello Everyone,
>
> I have of course read the guidelines posted by the W3C as it relates to
> the use of opening pages in a new window<
> https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/G200.html>, that being refrain from
> doing so unless there is a primary reason to do so. These reasons are very
> well documented in the supporting articles<
> https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/G201.html>.
>
> So, in the case of:
>
>
> * Sites like Dropbox, One Drive, Google Drive, Box, ETC.
> * PDF documents
> * Word documents
>
>
>
> Do you feel that these should not be opened in their own window?
>
>
>
> Thanks for any advice here.
>
>
>
> Jeff Bishop
>
>
> > > > >

From: Bishop, Jeff - (jeffbis)
Date: Mon, Aug 14 2023 4:48PM
Subject: Re: [EXT] Opening PDF, Word Documents or other sites like Dropbox, One Drive or Google Drive in a new window ...
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Yes, this is my opinion as well but I wanted to get others to chime in here before we make a wide change across our Quick Start sites.

From: Patrick H. Lauke
Date: Mon, Aug 14 2023 4:58PM
Subject: Re: Opening PDF, Word Documents or other sites like Dropbox, One Drive or Google Drive in a new window ...
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On 14/08/2023 23:21, Bishop, Jeff - (jeffbis) wrote:
> Hello Everyone,
>
> I have of course read the guidelines posted by the W3C as it relates to the use of opening pages in a new window<https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/G200.html>, that being refrain from doing so unless there is a primary reason to do so. These reasons are very well documented in the supporting articles<https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/G201.html>.

Note that those are non-normative *techniques*, not *guidelines*. Plus,
G200 is only an *advisory technique* (meaning it may or may not be
sufficient to pass a criterion) for 3.2.1 On Focus (A) and 3.2.5 Change
on Request (AAA) - but 3.2.1 definitely doesn't apply to links that
*don't* trigger on focus. And G201 is only an *advisory technique* for
3.2.1 On Focus (A) (which again won't apply here) and 3.2.2 On Input
(A), which also doesn't apply to links since activating a link is not
considered an "input".

Long story short, you're not necessarily in WCAG failure territory here,
but rather best practice.

P
--
Patrick H. Lauke

https://www.splintered.co.uk/ | https://github.com/patrickhlauke
https://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | https://www.deviantart.com/redux
https://mastodon.social/@patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke

From: Patrick H. Lauke
Date: Mon, Aug 14 2023 5:02PM
Subject: Re: Opening PDF, Word Documents or other sites like Dropbox, One Drive or Google Drive in a new window ...
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And purely from a "giving my opinion" point of view: as long as it
doesn't break the back button, I'd say a link to a PDF, Dropbox, etc can
just be a straight link in the same window. The user can bail back out
to the site using back. If you do provide a bit more context as part of
the link (like adding a PDF icon with appropriate alt etc), users can
then still choose themselves if they want to open in a new window or tab
(by middle/wheel clicking, using context menu, etc) if they so wish.

P
--
Patrick H. Lauke

https://www.splintered.co.uk/ | https://github.com/patrickhlauke
https://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | https://www.deviantart.com/redux
https://mastodon.social/@patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke

From: Bishop, Jeff - (jeffbis)
Date: Mon, Aug 14 2023 5:02PM
Subject: Re: [EXT] Opening PDF, Word Documents or other sites like Dropbox, One Drive or Google Drive in a new window ...
← Previous message | Next message →

Thank you Patrick. I knew these were advisory but I was just curious on what people's thoughts were on these types of links was all. Thank you.

Jeff

From: Bishop, Jeff - (jeffbis)
Date: Mon, Aug 14 2023 5:05PM
Subject: Re: [EXT] Opening PDF, Word Documents or other sites like Dropbox, One Drive or Google Drive in a new window ...
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See, this is the thing. Depending on how browsers treat a PDF the back button may not be available, which is why I was leaning toward opening in a new window. Thank you sir for your kind response.

From: Patrick H. Lauke
Date: Mon, Aug 14 2023 5:19PM
Subject: Re: [EXT]Opening PDF, Word Documents or other sites like Dropbox, One Drive or Google Drive in a new window ...
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On 15/08/2023 00:05, Bishop, Jeff - (jeffbis) wrote:
> See, this is the thing. Depending on how browsers treat a PDF the back button may not be available

Where/which browser does this happen in?

P
--
Patrick H. Lauke

https://www.splintered.co.uk/ | https://github.com/patrickhlauke
https://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | https://www.deviantart.com/redux
https://mastodon.social/@patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke

From: L Snider
Date: Tue, Aug 15 2023 6:52AM
Subject: Re: Opening PDF, Word Documents or other sites like Dropbox, One Drive or Google Drive in a new window ...
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The people I know who use screen readers, like the same window, as long as
the back button works, without issue. I also like the same window (I
dislike Safari's new window layout). However, I know others who want a new
window. This is just my view, but this was brought out eons ago, before we
had sites like dropbox or in browser PDF viewing, or multiple tabs (they
are mainstream now-they weren't as common in the days this was written).

If you do a new window, then try to say it in the link code, without
messing it up for voice users (I use voice a lot now).

Cheers

Lisa

On Mon, Aug 14, 2023 at 7:21 PM Bishop, Jeff - (jeffbis) <
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Hello Everyone,
>
> I have of course read the guidelines posted by the W3C as it relates to
> the use of opening pages in a new window<
> https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/G200.html>, that being refrain from
> doing so unless there is a primary reason to do so. These reasons are very
> well documented in the supporting articles<
> https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/G201.html>.
>
> So, in the case of:
>
>
> * Sites like Dropbox, One Drive, Google Drive, Box, ETC.
> * PDF documents
> * Word documents
>
>
>
> Do you feel that these should not be opened in their own window?
>
>
>
> Thanks for any advice here.
>
>
>
> Jeff Bishop
>
>
> > > > >

From: Karen McCall
Date: Tue, Aug 15 2023 12:54PM
Subject: Re: Opening PDF, Word Documents or other sites like Dropbox, One Drive or Google Drive in a new window ...
← Previous message | Next message →

For PDFs, I want them to open in my preferred PDF viewer, not a browser. I have mor tools in a dedicated PDF viewer.

I feel the same way about Word documents. I don't want them to open in Google Docs or Word on the Web, I want them to open in Word or give me the immediate opportunity to download them. Same with PowerPoint content.

I have more accessibility tools in the source application or a PDF viewer than I have in the browser views of everything. I also find that sometimes the "download" option is hidden or not available in a consistent manner.

Cheers, Karen

From: glen walker
Date: Tue, Aug 15 2023 12:58PM
Subject: Re: Opening PDF, Word Documents or other sites like Dropbox, One Drive or Google Drive in a new window ...
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Isn't that all controllable by the user? I went into the various browsers
that I use and set file types of PDF, DOC, and PPT to use the "download"
option rather than viewing in the browser.

On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 12:54 PM Karen McCall < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> For PDFs, I want them to open in my preferred PDF viewer, not a browser. I
> have mor tools in a dedicated PDF viewer.
>
> I feel the same way about Word documents. I don't want them to open in
> Google Docs or Word on the Web, I want them to open in Word or give me the
> immediate opportunity to download them. Same with PowerPoint content.
>
> I have more accessibility tools in the source application or a PDF viewer
> than I have in the browser views of everything. I also find that sometimes
> the "download" option is hidden or not available in a consistent manner.
>
> Cheers, Karen
>
>

From: Karen McCall
Date: Tue, Aug 15 2023 1:01PM
Subject: Re: Opening PDF, Word Documents or other sites like Dropbox, One Drive or Google Drive in a new window ...
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Yes, it can now be controlled through the browser. Although this is a relatively new setting in the browsers. I think it's less than a year old. I have my browsers set to automatically download these types of documents as well.

Cheers, Karen.

Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef>
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > on behalf of glen walker < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 2:58:15 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Opening PDF, Word Documents or other sites like Dropbox, One Drive or Google Drive in a new window ...

Isn't that all controllable by the user? I went into the various browsers
that I use and set file types of PDF, DOC, and PPT to use the "download"
option rather than viewing in the browser.

On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 12:54 PM Karen McCall < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> For PDFs, I want them to open in my preferred PDF viewer, not a browser. I
> have mor tools in a dedicated PDF viewer.
>
> I feel the same way about Word documents. I don't want them to open in
> Google Docs or Word on the Web, I want them to open in Word or give me the
> immediate opportunity to download them. Same with PowerPoint content.
>
> I have more accessibility tools in the source application or a PDF viewer
> than I have in the browser views of everything. I also find that sometimes
> the "download" option is hidden or not available in a consistent manner.
>
> Cheers, Karen
>
>

From: glen walker
Date: Tue, Aug 15 2023 1:24PM
Subject: Re: Opening PDF, Word Documents or other sites like Dropbox, One Drive or Google Drive in a new window ...
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Well, perhaps I'm using an old browser, Firefox, but I've had the download
setting for at least 10 years, if not longer. Prior to using Firefox, I
used Netscape Navigator. Really. Netscape eventually turned into
Firefox. I know Chrome is more popular than Firefox but I never saw a need
to switch, especially since Chrome doesn't have the simple feature of
ctrl+tab being able to toggle between two tabs. I'm sure there's a plugin
to do that but it should be a basic feature of the browser.

And in case you're wondering, which I'm sure you're not, prior to using
Netscape, I used Mosaic. Call me a dinosaur.

On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 1:01 PM Karen McCall < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Yes, it can now be controlled through the browser. Although this is a
> relatively new setting in the browsers. I think it's less than a year old.
> I have my browsers set to automatically download these types of documents
> as well.
>
>

From: Kevin Prince
Date: Tue, Aug 15 2023 3:43PM
Subject: Re: Opening PDF, Word Documents or other sites like Dropbox, One Drive or Google Drive in a new window ...
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Absolutely lucy - the techniques are not a "DO NOT" but a "do not unnecessarily but if you do warn". I would strongly argue that opening a file is a change of context sufficient to deserve a new window - especially if I want to open another.

Kevin
Kevin Prince
Product Accessibility & Usability Consultant

From: Bishop, Jeff - (jeffbis)
Date: Tue, Aug 15 2023 3:46PM
Subject: Re: Opening PDF, Word Documents or other sites like Dropbox, One Drive or Google Drive in a new window ...
← Previous message | Next message →

I want to thank everyone for their comments. The position I am suggesting to the University of Arizona is to open in a new window with a notice on the text of the link. Again, thanks so much everyone.

Jeff

From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Kevin Prince
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 2:43 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: [EXT]Re: [WebAIM] Opening PDF, Word Documents or other sites like Dropbox, One Drive or Google Drive in a new window ...


External Email
Absolutely lucy - the techniques are not a "DO NOT" but a "do not unnecessarily but if you do warn". I would strongly argue that opening a file is a change of context sufficient to deserve a new window - especially if I want to open another.

Kevin
Kevin Prince
Product Accessibility & Usability Consultant

Foster Moore
A Teranet Company

E = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Christchurch
fostermoore.com<http://www.fostermoore.com/>;

From: Joshua Hori
Date: Tue, Aug 15 2023 9:02PM
Subject: Re: Opening PDF, Word Documents or other sites like Dropbox, One Drive or Google Drive in a new window ...
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PDF's opened in browsers remove accessibility features of the PDF. Sure, you can access the text, but navigation is gone. There's a separate Chrome app to interact with PDF's for Chromebook users.

Opening within the same window as viewing content also helps those with lower end computers. I’ve worked with students whose computers froze if opening a new tab. Dell is still selling laptops with 4G of RAM and if you add in some AT, that system bogs down quickly.

Here's some helpful keyboard shortcuts for links:
SHIFT+Link – Opens link in new browser window
ALT+Link – downloads the link
CTRL+Link – opens link in new tab

There is no keyboard shortcut to tell a link NOT to open in a new tab.

As for cloud links, there's at least one cloud service that's inaccessible when iframed into pages.

Best,

Joshua Hori
Accessible Technology Coordinator
Information Educational Technology
Academic Technology Services
50 Hutchison Dr.
Davis, CA 95616
530-752-2439


From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > on behalf of Bishop, Jeff - (jeffbis) < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Date: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 at 2:46 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Opening PDF, Word Documents or other sites like Dropbox, One Drive or Google Drive in a new window ...
I want to thank everyone for their comments. The position I am suggesting to the University of Arizona is to open in a new window with a notice on the text of the link. Again, thanks so much everyone.

Jeff

From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Kevin Prince
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 2:43 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: [EXT]Re: [WebAIM] Opening PDF, Word Documents or other sites like Dropbox, One Drive or Google Drive in a new window ...


External Email
Absolutely lucy - the techniques are not a "DO NOT" but a "do not unnecessarily but if you do warn". I would strongly argue that opening a file is a change of context sufficient to deserve a new window - especially if I want to open another.

Kevin
Kevin Prince
Product Accessibility & Usability Consultant

Foster Moore
A Teranet Company

E = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Christchurch
fostermoore.com<http://www.fostermoore.com/>;

From: David Engebretson Jr.
Date: Tue, Aug 15 2023 9:35PM
Subject: Re: Opening PDF, Word Documents or other sites like Dropbox, One Drive or Google Drive in a new window ...
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I'd suggest, rather than coding something on each link, just let the user know to right click on the document so they can either open in a new tab, a different program, or a new window.

Personally it's painful to hear "Open in new tab" or ""open in new window" at the end of a hyperlink. Especially when, depending on user settings for a specific browser, it might not do what one expects. Chrome/Firefox/Edge all handle these types of links differently.

Cheers,
David