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Number of posts in this thread: 9 (In chronological order)

From: Tim
Date: Tue, Nov 29 2005 9:40AM
Subject: Select lists and automatically forwarding onchange
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I wonder... I'm sure I've read that from an accessibility pov, the following
is very bad form. Consider the fairly common scene:

A select list is used to list pages on a site
The visitor makes a selection
The visitor is automatically redirected to a new page via some scripting

I used to think this was bad because for those who use the keyboard, when
scrolling through the list they get redirected before they want? However,
when using the keyboard I don't seem to have any problem.

If the action is triggered once the user leaves the select list, surely it's
fair to assume they've made a choice? No, I guess not. They may have chosen
NOT to use my select list...

Also, if scripting is disabled (I've heard of this mythical user but my web
stats don't seem to have found them yet) then the select list won't work.

Are there any other reasons why you shouldn't use this automatic redirection
in conjunction with a select list but use an input button instead to trigger
the action?

TIA,
Tim

From: Austin, Darrel
Date: Tue, Nov 29 2005 11:00AM
Subject: RE: Select lists and automatically forwarding onchange
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> Are there any other reasons why you shouldn't use this
> automatic redirection in conjunction with a select list but
> use an input button instead to trigger the action?

I find it annoying. Sometimes I'm looking to see what's under the menu
and don't necessarily want to use it. Just 'snooping' around to get my
bearings.

As for the javascript issue, if you really want it to auto-forward, then
do add a GO button, and then HIDE that via javascript. That way you
accommodate those with and without javascript.

-Darrel

From: Jukka K. Korpela
Date: Tue, Nov 29 2005 11:40AM
Subject: Re: Select lists and automatically forwarding onchange
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On Tue, 29 Nov 2005, Tim wrote:

> I wonder... I'm sure I've read that from an accessibility pov, the following
> is very bad form.

Select lists for navigation are poor usability and poor accessibility.
See http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/forms/navmenu.html

> A select list is used to list pages on a site
> The visitor makes a selection

Here's the first problem. You cannot know how the visitor sees (or
otherwise observes) the menu. The only thing that is sure is that
the items do not look like and do not behave as links. And that's _bad_.

> The visitor is automatically redirected to a new page via some scripting

This usually fails whenever client-side scripting is disabled, and it can
be really annoying when it "works".

> I used to think this was bad because for those who use the keyboard, when
> scrolling through the list they get redirected before they want?

Why did you think so? If such things happen sometimes, they are surely not
the main argument against navigational select lists.

> Also, if scripting is disabled (I've heard of this mythical user but my web
> stats don't seem to have found them yet) then the select list won't work.

Do you mean that you designed a site that requires client-side scripting
to be enabled and now you have observed that people with scripting
disabled don't visit it? (I won't ask how you get the stats. I already
know that 97.2 % of all stats have just been made up and the rest 3.8 %
have been miscalculated.)

> Are there any other reasons why you shouldn't use this automatic redirection
> in conjunction with a select list but use an input button instead to trigger
> the action?

The simple reason is that it is a harmful complication. Links work _much_
better. There are lots of other reasons of course.

--
Jukka "Yucca" Korpela, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/

From: Robinson, Norman B - Washington, DC
Date: Tue, Nov 29 2005 12:20PM
Subject: RE: Select lists and automatically forwarding onchange
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Tim asked regarding "[WebAIM] Select lists and automatically forwarding
onchange",

"...if scripting is disabled (I've heard of this mythical user but my
web stats don't seem to have found them yet) then the select list won't
work." Just wanted to comment that when I use my cellphone I don't have
scripting available to me and it makes all the difference between a
usable site. You'll probably only see my webstats once on the parent
link because I can't get to the content.

I also have to sometimes disable scripting because the site has bad
detection routines and anything outside the normal causes the site to
refuse service (suggesting I upgrade to the "latest" browser, which is
often a version behind what I'm using!).

"Are there any other reasons why you shouldn't use this automatic
redirection in conjunction with a select list but use an input button
instead to trigger the action?"
As a use case, I would very much like to determine what action is going
to occur rather than accidentally activate a select list that puts me on
a page that I may accidentally have activated. I can refresh the reading
of my virtual screen and have my screen reader tell me what value is
selected before activation.

Regards,


Norman Robinson

From: Jared Smith
Date: Tue, Nov 29 2005 1:00PM
Subject: Re: Select lists and automatically forwarding onchange
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Austin, Darrel wrote:
> I could do that, but often I just want to click it with the mouse and
> scroll thorugh. Then get rid of it. Sometime (perhaps unconsciously)
> just clicking an arbitrary item to close it.

... or inadvertantly leaving the drop-down menu selected and then later
using the mouse scroll wheel to scroll up or down on the page just to find
your browser suddenly navigating to a new page.

Anytime you change the default behavior of the browser you are bound to
cause problems. The optimal solution is to add the "Go" (or whatever)
button and process the form data and do the redirect server-side thus
avoiding JavaScript altogether.

http://webaim.org/techniques/javascript/eventhandlers#onchange__50_016_05_02

Jared Smith
WebAIM.org

From: Austin, Darrel
Date: Tue, Nov 29 2005 1:40PM
Subject: RE: Select lists and automatically forwarding onchange
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> You can snoop anyway - use ctrl+down arrow to open the
> select, then arrow to your satisfaction. Escape will close
> the list, enter will select a focused item.

I could do that, but often I just want to click it with the mouse and
scroll thorugh. Then get rid of it. Sometime (perhaps unconsciously)
just clicking an arbitrary item to close it.

I'm speaking from a usability standpoint moreso than accessibility.

-Darrel

From: Andrew Kirkpatrick
Date: Tue, Nov 29 2005 2:20PM
Subject: RE: Select lists and automatically forwarding onchange
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> I find it annoying. Sometimes I'm looking to see what's under
> the menu and don't necessarily want to use it. Just
> 'snooping' around to get my bearings.

You can snoop anyway - use ctrl+down arrow to open the select, then
arrow to your satisfaction. Escape will close the list, enter will
select a focused item.

Drop down lists like this are perfectly accessible to keyboard and
screen reader users. The problem is that few users know how to use
them, making the use of onchange events within select controls a
usability problem, and an easily avoided problem at that.

AWK

From: Andrew Arch
Date: Tue, Nov 29 2005 5:00PM
Subject: RE: Select lists and automatically forwarding onchange
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Hi Tim,

An auto-redirect via scripting will cause problems for non-mouse users in IE
(at least) - the first down-arrow key press causes the top link to be
activated, and the users can not usually get to any other link in the list.
(Very few users know about the alt + down-arrow option.)

With regard to JavaScript not being available - have a look at
TheCounter.com [1] who suggest that currently 10% of users for the companies
they monitor do not have JavaScript available. I know of several large
corporates and Government Departments who lock JavaScript off for security
reasons.

Cheers, Andrew

[1] http://www.thecounter.com/stats/2005/October/javas.php

_________________________________
Dr Andrew Arch
Vision Australia - Accessible Information Solutions
454 Glenferrie Rd, Kooyong 3144, Australia
Ph +61 (0)3 9864 9282; Fax +61 (0)3 9864 9370
http://www.accessibleinfo.org.au/

From: Patrick H. Lauke
Date: Tue, Nov 29 2005 7:40PM
Subject: Re: Select lists and automatically forwarding onchange
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Tim wrote:

> Are there any other reasons why you shouldn't use this automatic
> redirection in conjunction with a select list but use an input button
> instead to trigger the action?

In addition to what has already been said on the thread, an additional
consideration: if you're *only* providing a select-based navigation
(with or without a submit button), there is a good chance that search
engines won't see anything beyond your first page, as their spiders
won't see any links going to your internal pages...(and, afaik, they
don't just follow anything that just looks like a url, but actually do
need proper links)

--
Patrick H. Lauke
___________
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