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Number of posts in this thread: 18 (In chronological order)

From: Mark Magennis
Date: Thu, Mar 18 2021 4:50AM
Subject: SC 2.2.2 Pause, Stop, Hide - meaning of "starts automatically"
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WCAG SC 2.2.2 Pause, Stop, Hide says "For any moving, blinking or scrolling=
information that (1) starts automatically, (2) lasts more than five second=
s, and (3) is presented in parallel with other content, there is a mechanis=
m for the user to pause, stop, or hide it...".

We have a file upload function that displays an animated scrolling bar whil=
e the upload is in progress. The upload time is potentially longer than fiv=
e seconds and while it is happening the user can continue to use the rest o=
f the page. I've declared this an SC 2.2.2 failure but someone is claiming =
that it isn't because it doesn't start automatically. It starts when the us=
er activates the file upload button. Given the purpose of the SC I can't be=
lieve that this interpretation is what WAI intends but I haven't found any =
statement in the WCAG documentation or elsewhere about what is meant by "(1=
) starts automatically" in the wording of SC 2.2.2.

The WCAG examples in the understanding document give reason to believe that=
a progress indicator is not considered to be something that starts automat=
ically, but that's my reading of it. Anyone have an opinion or know of any =
statements by WAI or others about this?

Thanks,
Mark

Mark Magennis
Senior Accessibility Specialist
Skillsoft | mobile: +353 87 60 60 162
www.skillsoft.com<;http://www.skillsoft.com/>;

[Skillsoft / Sumtotal]


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--_004_SN2PR0801MB2192E079A4997834E04AD835E5699SN2PR0801MB2192_--

From: Patrick H. Lauke
Date: Thu, Mar 18 2021 5:09AM
Subject: Re: SC 2.2.2 Pause, Stop, Hide - meaning of "starts automatically"
← Previous message | Next message →

On 18/03/2021 10:50, Mark Magennis wrote:
> WCAG SC 2.2.2 Pause, Stop, Hide says "For any moving, blinking or scrolling information that (1) starts automatically, (2) lasts more than five seconds, and (3) is presented in parallel with other content, there is a mechanism for the user to pause, stop, or hide it...".
>
> We have a file upload function that displays an animated scrolling bar while the upload is in progress. The upload time is potentially longer than five seconds and while it is happening the user can continue to use the rest of the page. I've declared this an SC 2.2.2 failure but someone is claiming that it isn't because it doesn't start automatically. It starts when the user activates the file upload button. Given the purpose of the SC I can't believe that this interpretation is what WAI intends but I haven't found any statement in the WCAG documentation or elsewhere about what is meant by "(1) starts automatically" in the wording of SC 2.2.2.
>
> The WCAG examples in the understanding document give reason to believe that a progress indicator is not considered to be something that starts automatically, but that's my reading of it. Anyone have an opinion or know of any statements by WAI or others about this?

From memory, "starts automatically" is intended as "not as a result of
a user action", so a strict reading of the normative text would seem to
suggest that the progress indicator which appears only after the user
takes an action would indeed be exempt. In the past, in similar
situations, I have filed these sorts of things as a "nominal" pass, but
followed up with a best practice advice of still considering not
animating things in too distracting a way / taking a cue from
prefers-reduced-motion.

P
--
Patrick H. Lauke

https://www.splintered.co.uk/ | https://github.com/patrickhlauke
https://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | https://www.deviantart.com/redux
twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke

From: Mark Magennis
Date: Thu, Mar 18 2021 5:53AM
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] SC 2.2.2 Pause, Stop, Hide - meaning of "starts automatically"
← Previous message | Next message →

Thanks Patrick,

But do you remember why the scope was restricted to automatic events at all? Since the intent is to avoid distracting users while they use the page, I don't see what difference it makes whether the distraction arose due to something the user did or not. Restricting it to automatic events doesn't seem to fit the intention of the SC.

Mark

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Patrick H. Lauke
Sent: 18 March 2021 11:10
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [WebAIM] SC 2.2.2 Pause, Stop, Hide - meaning of "starts automatically"

On 18/03/2021 10:50, Mark Magennis wrote:
> WCAG SC 2.2.2 Pause, Stop, Hide says "For any moving, blinking or scrolling information that (1) starts automatically, (2) lasts more than five seconds, and (3) is presented in parallel with other content, there is a mechanism for the user to pause, stop, or hide it...".
>
> We have a file upload function that displays an animated scrolling bar while the upload is in progress. The upload time is potentially longer than five seconds and while it is happening the user can continue to use the rest of the page. I've declared this an SC 2.2.2 failure but someone is claiming that it isn't because it doesn't start automatically. It starts when the user activates the file upload button. Given the purpose of the SC I can't believe that this interpretation is what WAI intends but I haven't found any statement in the WCAG documentation or elsewhere about what is meant by "(1) starts automatically" in the wording of SC 2.2.2.
>
> The WCAG examples in the understanding document give reason to believe that a progress indicator is not considered to be something that starts automatically, but that's my reading of it. Anyone have an opinion or know of any statements by WAI or others about this?

From memory, "starts automatically" is intended as "not as a result of a user action", so a strict reading of the normative text would seem to suggest that the progress indicator which appears only after the user takes an action would indeed be exempt. In the past, in similar situations, I have filed these sorts of things as a "nominal" pass, but followed up with a best practice advice of still considering not animating things in too distracting a way / taking a cue from prefers-reduced-motion.

P
--
Patrick H. Lauke

https://www.splintered.co.uk/ | https://github.com/patrickhlauke https://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | https://www.deviantart.com/redux
twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke

From: Patrick H. Lauke
Date: Thu, Mar 18 2021 6:01AM
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL]SC 2.2.2 Pause, Stop, Hide - meaning of "starts automatically"
← Previous message | Next message →

On 18/03/2021 11:53, Mark Magennis wrote:
> But do you remember why the scope was restricted to automatic events at all? Since the intent is to avoid distracting users while they use the page, I don't see what difference it makes whether the distraction arose due to something the user did or not. Restricting it to automatic events doesn't seem to fit the intention of the SC.

I would assume the rationale is "well, if you find it distracting, just
don't do it", and in part "it's not jumping at you/surprising you, you
know what you're in for".

P
--
Patrick H. Lauke

https://www.splintered.co.uk/ | https://github.com/patrickhlauke
https://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | https://www.deviantart.com/redux
twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke

From: Mark Magennis
Date: Thu, Mar 18 2021 6:54AM
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL]SC 2.2.2 Pause, Stop, Hide - meaning of "starts automatically"
← Previous message | Next message →

> I would assume the rationale is "well, if you find it distracting, just don't do it", and in part "it's not jumping at you/surprising you, you know what you're in for".

That can't be the rationale. WCAG would not sanction an approach of "If a function causes the application to be inaccessible to some users then tell them not to use it". Or "They should have know that this might prevent them from doing any other work, so that's okay".

From: Patrick H. Lauke
Date: Thu, Mar 18 2021 7:14AM
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL]SC 2.2.2 Pause, Stop, Hide - meaning of "starts automatically"
← Previous message | Next message →

On 18/03/2021 12:54, Mark Magennis wrote:
>> I would assume the rationale is "well, if you find it distracting, just don't do it", and in part "it's not jumping at you/surprising you, you know what you're in for".
>
> That can't be the rationale. WCAG would not sanction an approach of "If a function causes the application to be inaccessible to some users then tell them not to use it". Or "They should have know that this might prevent them from doing any other work, so that's okay".

The likely simpler answer is: nobody thought of that scenario when the
SC and its understanding docs were written up... (as we so often find
when we start poking hard at SCs and it turns out that "nobody could
have foreseen this...")

P
--
Patrick H. Lauke

https://www.splintered.co.uk/ | https://github.com/patrickhlauke
https://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | https://www.deviantart.com/redux
twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke

From: Mark Magennis
Date: Thu, Mar 18 2021 7:58AM
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL]SC 2.2.2 Pause, Stop, Hide - meaning of "starts automatically"
← Previous message | Next message →

I don't want to harp on and on about this for too long, but to me the logical thing would have been not to even mention the "starts automatically" thing. But presumably someone thought about it and decided "we need that" on the basis that manual activated functions are different and should be allowed to distract the user. I can't see why though. There's no example in the Understanding document of something not being a failure because it was not automatic.

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Patrick H. Lauke
Sent: 18 March 2021 13:15
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] [EXTERNAL] Re: SC 2.2.2 Pause, Stop, Hide - meaning of "starts automatically"

On 18/03/2021 12:54, Mark Magennis wrote:
>> I would assume the rationale is "well, if you find it distracting, just don't do it", and in part "it's not jumping at you/surprising you, you know what you're in for".
>
> That can't be the rationale. WCAG would not sanction an approach of "If a function causes the application to be inaccessible to some users then tell them not to use it". Or "They should have know that this might prevent them from doing any other work, so that's okay".

The likely simpler answer is: nobody thought of that scenario when the SC and its understanding docs were written up... (as we so often find when we start poking hard at SCs and it turns out that "nobody could have foreseen this...")

P
--
Patrick H. Lauke

https://www.splintered.co.uk/ | https://github.com/patrickhlauke https://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | https://www.deviantart.com/redux
twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke

From: Patrick H. Lauke
Date: Thu, Mar 18 2021 8:01AM
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL]SC 2.2.2 Pause, Stop, Hide - meaning of "starts automatically"
← Previous message | Next message →

On 18/03/2021 13:58, Mark Magennis wrote:
> I don't want to harp on and on about this for too long, but to me the logical thing would have been not to even mention the "starts automatically" thing. But presumably someone thought about it and decided "we need that" on the basis that manual activated functions are different and should be allowed to distract the user. I can't see why though. There's no example in the Understanding document of something not being a failure because it was not automatic.

Suggest asking on the actual WCAG github repo and see if anybody else
from the WG has any insights into the whys and hows.

P
--
Patrick H. Lauke

https://www.splintered.co.uk/ | https://github.com/patrickhlauke
https://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | https://www.deviantart.com/redux
twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke

From: Steve Green
Date: Thu, Mar 18 2021 8:23AM
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL]SC 2.2.2 Pause, Stop, Hide - meaning of "starts automatically"
← Previous message | Next message →

If the SC applied to manually activated functions, it would prohibit video and other visual time-based media as well as requiring progress indicators that don't show that any progress is occurring.

You might then try to dream up some form of words where moving content is permitted as long as it is the objective of the manual operation rather than being a side effect. But this feels like a horrible solution that could probably not be expressed unambiguously.

Personally, I don't see any problem with the SC as it stands.

Steve Green
Managing Director
Test Partners Ltd


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Patrick H. Lauke
Sent: 18 March 2021 14:02
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] [EXTERNAL] Re: SC 2.2.2 Pause, Stop, Hide - meaning of "starts automatically"

On 18/03/2021 13:58, Mark Magennis wrote:
> I don't want to harp on and on about this for too long, but to me the logical thing would have been not to even mention the "starts automatically" thing. But presumably someone thought about it and decided "we need that" on the basis that manual activated functions are different and should be allowed to distract the user. I can't see why though. There's no example in the Understanding document of something not being a failure because it was not automatic.

Suggest asking on the actual WCAG github repo and see if anybody else from the WG has any insights into the whys and hows.

P
--
Patrick H. Lauke

https://www.splintered.co.uk/ | https://github.com/patrickhlauke https://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | https://www.deviantart.com/redux
twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke

From: Michael Ausbun
Date: Thu, Mar 18 2021 8:33AM
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL]SC 2.2.2 Pause, Stop, Hide - meaning of "starts automatically"
← Previous message | Next message →

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From: Mark Magennis
Date: Thu, Mar 18 2021 8:48AM
Subject: Re: SC 2.2.2 Pause, Stop, Hide - meaning of "starts automatically"
← Previous message | Next message →

> If the SC applied to manually activated functions, it would prohibit video and other visual time-based media

I think video would be covered by the clause "unless the movement, blinking, or scrolling is part of an activity where it is essential".

> as well as requiring progress indicators that don't show that any progress is occurring.

You can show progress without continual movement, for instance by updating a textual percentage value. This doesn't convey a sense of motion which is what is meant by "moving, blinking and scrolling".

> You might then try to dream up some form of words where moving content is permitted as long as it is the objective of the manual operation rather than being a side effect.

Isn't that exactly what is stated in the clause "unless the movement, blinking, or scrolling is part of an activity where it is essential"?

From: Steve Green
Date: Thu, Mar 18 2021 8:55AM
Subject: Re: SC 2.2.2 Pause, Stop, Hide - meaning of "starts automatically"
← Previous message | Next message →

The word "essential" is subjective. It's usually obvious if something is essential, but not always.

And you can only update a percentage value if you know what the total is. The percentages shown for file downloads and installations are calculations that make certain assumptions (such as the bandwidth never changing) that may be incorrect. In other cases, such as for a page or content loading indicator, the expected time is completely unknown, so the percentage completion cannot be calculated.

Steve


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Mark Magennis
Sent: 18 March 2021 14:48
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] SC 2.2.2 Pause, Stop, Hide - meaning of "starts automatically"

> If the SC applied to manually activated functions, it would prohibit
> video and other visual time-based media

I think video would be covered by the clause "unless the movement, blinking, or scrolling is part of an activity where it is essential".

> as well as requiring progress indicators that don't show that any progress is occurring.

You can show progress without continual movement, for instance by updating a textual percentage value. This doesn't convey a sense of motion which is what is meant by "moving, blinking and scrolling".

> You might then try to dream up some form of words where moving content is permitted as long as it is the objective of the manual operation rather than being a side effect.

Isn't that exactly what is stated in the clause "unless the movement, blinking, or scrolling is part of an activity where it is essential"?

From: Mark Magennis
Date: Thu, Mar 18 2021 8:59AM
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] SC 2.2.2 Pause, Stop, Hide - meaning of "starts automatically"
← Previous message | Next message →

> And you can only update a percentage value if you know what the total is.

That's true, and in the case I am talking about the percentage is never known. It's either Loading or Loaded. But I would think a simple message "Loading" which changes to "Loaded" would be adequate to provide the information without requiring movement.

From: Aditya
Date: Thu, Mar 18 2021 9:40AM
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] SC 2.2.2 Pause, Stop, Hide - meaning of "starts automatically"
← Previous message | Next message →

Note 4 of 2.2.2 says

"An animation that occurs as part of a preload phase or similar situation can be considered essential if interaction cannot occur during that phase for all users and if not indicating progress could confuse users or cause them to think that content was frozen or broken."

Based on that any loading indicator animation can be considered "essential". As the new content is loading users cannot interact with that component.

Thanks,
Aditya

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 18, 2021, at 9:59 AM, Mark Magennis < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

>> And you can only update a percentage value if you know what the total is.
>
> That's true, and in the case I am talking about the percentage is never known. It's either Loading or Loaded. But I would think a simple message "Loading" which changes to "Loaded" would be adequate to provide the information without requiring movement.
> > > >

From: Mark Magennis
Date: Thu, Mar 18 2021 11:21AM
Subject: Re: SC 2.2.2 Pause, Stop, Hide - meaning of "starts automatically"
← Previous message | Next message →

But in the case I'm talking about the users can interact with the rest of the page while the loading animation is being displayed. So this is not a preload phase as described in that example from the Understanding doc.

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Aditya via WebAIM-Forum
Sent: 18 March 2021 15:40
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Cc: Aditya < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] [EXTERNAL] Re: SC 2.2.2 Pause, Stop, Hide - meaning of "starts automatically"

Note 4 of 2.2.2 says

"An animation that occurs as part of a preload phase or similar situation can be considered essential if interaction cannot occur during that phase for all users and if not indicating progress could confuse users or cause them to think that content was frozen or broken."

Based on that any loading indicator animation can be considered "essential". As the new content is loading users cannot interact with that component.

Thanks,
Aditya

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 18, 2021, at 9:59 AM, Mark Magennis < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

>> And you can only update a percentage value if you know what the total is.
>
> That's true, and in the case I am talking about the percentage is never known. It's either Loading or Loaded. But I would think a simple message "Loading" which changes to "Loaded" would be adequate to provide the information without requiring movement.
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>

From: Aditya
Date: Thu, Mar 18 2021 11:50AM
Subject: Re: SC 2.2.2 Pause, Stop, Hide - meaning of "starts automatically"
← Previous message | Next message →

Yes,
But they also gave a caveat of "similar situation".

So yes users can or cannot interact with the rest of the page.. if they cannot, it's OK too since the reason for animation is an essential situation.

In this case, since it is also user triggered animation, my assumption is that users' context is around the animation and not the rest of the page.


Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 18, 2021, at 12:21 PM, Mark Magennis < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> But in the case I'm talking about the users can interact with the rest of the page while the loading animation is being displayed. So this is not a preload phase as described in that example from the Understanding doc.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Aditya via WebAIM-Forum
> Sent: 18 March 2021 15:40
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Cc: Aditya < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] [EXTERNAL] Re: SC 2.2.2 Pause, Stop, Hide - meaning of "starts automatically"
>
> Note 4 of 2.2.2 says
>
> "An animation that occurs as part of a preload phase or similar situation can be considered essential if interaction cannot occur during that phase for all users and if not indicating progress could confuse users or cause them to think that content was frozen or broken."
>
> Based on that any loading indicator animation can be considered "essential". As the new content is loading users cannot interact with that component.
>
> Thanks,
> Aditya
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Mar 18, 2021, at 9:59 AM, Mark Magennis < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
>>> And you can only update a percentage value if you know what the total is.
>>
>> That's true, and in the case I am talking about the percentage is never known. It's either Loading or Loaded. But I would think a simple message "Loading" which changes to "Loaded" would be adequate to provide the information without requiring movement.
>> >> >> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> >
> > > > > > >

From: Brooks Newton
Date: Thu, Mar 18 2021 1:30PM
Subject: Re: SC 2.2.2 Pause, Stop, Hide - meaning of "starts automatically"
← Previous message | Next message →

Here's a question:

Is it essential for the loading indicator to be animated? Does the
animation prove to sighted users, for example, that the page is just still
loading instead of being stuck or frozen due to a computer crash?

Under point 5, "Non-Interferance" in the conformance section, SC 2.2.2
Pause, Stop, Hide is listed as one of four Success Criteria under WCAG 2.x
that apply to all of the content on the page because failing these specific
Success Criteria can cause interference with users trying to perceive and
interact with surrounding content <http://conformance-reqs>;.

This gets complicated fast.

Brooks Newton




On Thu, Mar 18, 2021 at 12:50 PM Aditya via WebAIM-Forum <
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Yes,
> But they also gave a caveat of "similar situation".
>
> So yes users can or cannot interact with the rest of the page.. if they
> cannot, it's OK too since the reason for animation is an essential
> situation.
>
> In this case, since it is also user triggered animation, my assumption is
> that users' context is around the animation and not the rest of the page.
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
>
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From: Aditya
Date: Thu, Mar 18 2021 3:31PM
Subject: Re: SC 2.2.2 Pause, Stop, Hide - meaning of "starts automatically"
← Previous message | No next message

Yes, I don't think there is conflict though.

In this case animation does not happen automatically and it is happening on a component that user is actively interacting with.

If the animation (>5secs) was happening without user intervention and user was trying to operate some other area of the page, yes it would have been a failure.

To have an animation is a design choice but a standard practice.. loading indicators and shimmers do provide context to users that content is loading.


Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 18, 2021, at 2:30 PM, Brooks Newton < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> Here's a question:
>
> Is it essential for the loading indicator to be animated? Does the
> animation prove to sighted users, for example, that the page is just still
> loading instead of being stuck or frozen due to a computer crash?
>
> Under point 5, "Non-Interferance" in the conformance section, SC 2.2.2
> Pause, Stop, Hide is listed as one of four Success Criteria under WCAG 2.x
> that apply to all of the content on the page because failing these specific
> Success Criteria can cause interference with users trying to perceive and
> interact with surrounding content <http://conformance-reqs>;.
>
> This gets complicated fast.
>
> Brooks Newton
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 18, 2021 at 12:50 PM Aditya via WebAIM-Forum <
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
>> Yes,
>> But they also gave a caveat of "similar situation".
>>
>> So yes users can or cannot interact with the rest of the page.. if they
>> cannot, it's OK too since the reason for animation is an essential
>> situation.
>>
>> In this case, since it is also user triggered animation, my assumption is
>> that users' context is around the animation and not the rest of the page.
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>
>>
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