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Thread: PDF: Parts Of Manually Tagged PDF Don't Show Up For Screen Reader

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Number of posts in this thread: 8 (In chronological order)

From: Jim Homme
Date: Thu, Sep 15 2022 6:31AM
Subject: PDF: Parts Of Manually Tagged PDF Don't Show Up For Screen Reader
No previous message | Next message →

Hi,
I don't have Adobe Pro, so I have pretty much no diagnostic tools at my disposal. I have a PDF that has a bunch of heading 2 tags that only contain the number 2 in the headings. The content below these headings is visually readable, but absent from the content for screen readers. The person who made the documents says something may have changed in the adobe software or somewhere else that is causing this to happen. How can we start approaching a solution to the issue?

Thanks.

Jim H

Thanks.

Jim

=========Jim Homme
Senior Digital Accessibility Consultant
Bender Consulting Services
412-787-8567
https://www.benderconsult.com/
Support the dreams of independence through employment for students with disabilities with your Amazon purchases.
https://smile.amazon.com/ch/83-0988251

From: Philip Kiff
Date: Thu, Sep 15 2022 6:47AM
Subject: Re: PDF: Parts Of Manually Tagged PDF Don't Show Up For Screen Reader
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Jim,

It's very difficult to come up with a troubleshooting approach without
more tools or more information. This sounds like a problem with the
source document and/or software, not a problem with Acrobat. But a
couple quick ideas come to mind:

Check if you can select the missing text and copy and paste it from the
PDF in Adobe Reader:
Maybe the text is an image or incorrectly scanned document.

Check source file for incorrect autonumbering format for those heading
2's (if source is MS Word)?

Check source file for incorrectly nested tags (if source is XML/HTML)?

Use free PAC tool to compare simulated Screenreader output with PDF tags.
The PDF Accessibility Checker is free and includes these tools.
Available from:
https://pdfua.foundation/en

Phil.

Philip Kiff
D4K Communications

On 2022-09-15 08:31, Jim Homme wrote:
> Hi,
> I don't have Adobe Pro, so I have pretty much no diagnostic tools at my disposal. I have a PDF that has a bunch of heading 2 tags that only contain the number 2 in the headings. The content below these headings is visually readable, but absent from the content for screen readers. The person who made the documents says something may have changed in the adobe software or somewhere else that is causing this to happen. How can we start approaching a solution to the issue?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Jim H
>
> Thanks.
>
> Jim
>
> =========> Jim Homme
> Senior Digital Accessibility Consultant
> Bender Consulting Services
> 412-787-8567
> https://www.benderconsult.com/
> Support the dreams of independence through employment for students with disabilities with your Amazon purchases.
> https://smile.amazon.com/ch/83-0988251

From: Philip Kiff
Date: Thu, Sep 15 2022 6:54AM
Subject: Re: PDF: Parts Of Manually Tagged PDF Don't Show Up For Screen Reader
← Previous message | Next message →

Also, I just realized that whoever did the manual tagging must have
Acrobat Pro, even if you don't?

In that case, you might advise them to use the Find untagged content
feature in Acrobat Pro. The idea here is that they missed tagging this
content. And if that doesn't work, then maybe the content was artifacted
by accident, which can be harder to fix without retagging whole pages or
carefully manipulating the Content tree panel in Acrobat Pro.

Phil.

On 2022-09-15 08:47, Philip Kiff wrote:
> Hi Jim,
>
> It's very difficult to come up with a troubleshooting approach without
> more tools or more information. This sounds like a problem with the
> source document and/or software, not a problem with Acrobat. But a
> couple quick ideas come to mind:
>
> Check if you can select the missing text and copy and paste it from
> the PDF in Adobe Reader:
> Maybe the text is an image or incorrectly scanned document.
>
> Check source file for incorrect autonumbering format for those heading
> 2's (if source is MS Word)?
>
> Check source file for incorrectly nested tags (if source is XML/HTML)?
>
> Use free PAC tool to compare simulated Screenreader output with PDF tags.
> The PDF Accessibility Checker is free and includes these tools.
> Available from:
> https://pdfua.foundation/en
>
> Phil.
>
> Philip Kiff
> D4K Communications
>
> On 2022-09-15 08:31, Jim Homme wrote:
>> Hi,
>> I don't have Adobe Pro, so I have pretty much no diagnostic tools at
>> my disposal. I have  a PDF that has a bunch of heading 2 tags that
>> only contain the number 2 in the headings. The content below these
>> headings is visually readable, but absent from the content for screen
>> readers. The person who made the documents says something may have
>> changed in the adobe software or somewhere else that is causing this
>> to happen. How can we start approaching a solution to the issue?
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Jim H
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Jim
>>
>> =========>> Jim Homme
>> Senior Digital Accessibility Consultant
>> Bender Consulting Services
>> 412-787-8567
>> https://www.benderconsult.com/
>> Support the dreams of independence through employment for students
>> with disabilities with your Amazon purchases.
>> https://smile.amazon.com/ch/83-0988251
> > > >

From: Jon Brundage
Date: Thu, Sep 15 2022 7:51AM
Subject: Re: PDF: Parts Of Manually Tagged PDF Don't Show Up For Screen Reader
← Previous message | Next message →

I have seen PDFs with content in the tag tree that is not read by screen readers nor recognized by the "touch up reading order" tool in Abobe Pro.

There are frustrating "ghosts in the machine" stuff with PDFs

Jon



-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Philip Kiff
Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2022 8:54 AM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] PDF: Parts Of Manually Tagged PDF Don't Show Up For Screen Reader

Also, I just realized that whoever did the manual tagging must have Acrobat Pro, even if you don't?

In that case, you might advise them to use the Find untagged content feature in Acrobat Pro. The idea here is that they missed tagging this content. And if that doesn't work, then maybe the content was artifacted by accident, which can be harder to fix without retagging whole pages or carefully manipulating the Content tree panel in Acrobat Pro.

Phil.

On 2022-09-15 08:47, Philip Kiff wrote:
> Hi Jim,
>
> It's very difficult to come up with a troubleshooting approach without
> more tools or more information. This sounds like a problem with the
> source document and/or software, not a problem with Acrobat. But a
> couple quick ideas come to mind:
>
> Check if you can select the missing text and copy and paste it from
> the PDF in Adobe Reader:
> Maybe the text is an image or incorrectly scanned document.
>
> Check source file for incorrect autonumbering format for those heading
> 2's (if source is MS Word)?
>
> Check source file for incorrectly nested tags (if source is XML/HTML)?
>
> Use free PAC tool to compare simulated Screenreader output with PDF tags.
> The PDF Accessibility Checker is free and includes these tools.
> Available from:
> https://pdfua.foundation/en
>
> Phil.
>
> Philip Kiff
> D4K Communications
>
> On 2022-09-15 08:31, Jim Homme wrote:
>> Hi,
>> I don't have Adobe Pro, so I have pretty much no diagnostic tools at
>> my disposal. I have a PDF that has a bunch of heading 2 tags that
>> only contain the number 2 in the headings. The content below these
>> headings is visually readable, but absent from the content for screen
>> readers. The person who made the documents says something may have
>> changed in the adobe software or somewhere else that is causing this
>> to happen. How can we start approaching a solution to the issue?
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Jim H
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Jim
>>
>> =========>> Jim Homme
>> Senior Digital Accessibility Consultant Bender Consulting Services
>> 412-787-8567
>> https://www.benderconsult.com/
>> Support the dreams of independence through employment for students
>> with disabilities with your Amazon purchases.
>> https://smile.amazon.com/ch/83-0988251
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>

From: Jim Homme
Date: Thu, Sep 15 2022 11:34AM
Subject: Re: PDF: Parts Of Manually Tagged PDF Don't Show Up For Screen Reader
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi,
Is it possible to get a detailed report using Pac with a screen reader? It's not obvious to me.

Thanks.

Jim

=========Jim Homme
Senior Digital Accessibility Consultant
Bender Consulting Services
412-787-8567
https://www.benderconsult.com/
Support the dreams of independence through employment for students with disabilities with your Amazon purchases.
https://smile.amazon.com/ch/83-0988251

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Philip Kiff
Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2022 8:54 AM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] PDF: Parts Of Manually Tagged PDF Don't Show Up For Screen Reader

Also, I just realized that whoever did the manual tagging must have Acrobat Pro, even if you don't?

In that case, you might advise them to use the Find untagged content feature in Acrobat Pro. The idea here is that they missed tagging this content. And if that doesn't work, then maybe the content was artifacted by accident, which can be harder to fix without retagging whole pages or carefully manipulating the Content tree panel in Acrobat Pro.

Phil.

On 2022-09-15 08:47, Philip Kiff wrote:
> Hi Jim,
>
> It's very difficult to come up with a troubleshooting approach without
> more tools or more information. This sounds like a problem with the
> source document and/or software, not a problem with Acrobat. But a
> couple quick ideas come to mind:
>
> Check if you can select the missing text and copy and paste it from
> the PDF in Adobe Reader:
> Maybe the text is an image or incorrectly scanned document.
>
> Check source file for incorrect autonumbering format for those heading
> 2's (if source is MS Word)?
>
> Check source file for incorrectly nested tags (if source is XML/HTML)?
>
> Use free PAC tool to compare simulated Screenreader output with PDF tags.
> The PDF Accessibility Checker is free and includes these tools.
> Available from:
> https://pdfua.foundation/en
>
> Phil.
>
> Philip Kiff
> D4K Communications
>
> On 2022-09-15 08:31, Jim Homme wrote:
>> Hi,
>> I don't have Adobe Pro, so I have pretty much no diagnostic tools at
>> my disposal. I have  a PDF that has a bunch of heading 2 tags that
>> only contain the number 2 in the headings. The content below these
>> headings is visually readable, but absent from the content for screen
>> readers. The person who made the documents says something may have
>> changed in the adobe software or somewhere else that is causing this
>> to happen. How can we start approaching a solution to the issue?
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Jim H
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Jim
>>
>> =========>> Jim Homme
>> Senior Digital Accessibility Consultant Bender Consulting Services
>> 412-787-8567
>> https://www.benderconsult.com/
>> Support the dreams of independence through employment for students
>> with disabilities with your Amazon purchases.
>> https://smile.amazon.com/ch/83-0988251
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>

From: Jerra Strong
Date: Thu, Sep 15 2022 1:19PM
Subject: Re: PDF: Parts Of Manually Tagged PDF Don't Show Up For Screen Reader
← Previous message | Next message →

" There are frustrating "ghosts in the machine" stuff with PDFs"

I second what Jon said, there are some unfortunate "glitches" that pop up
with PDFs and can be difficult to fix.

One option would be to clear the structure and start again to see if it
behaves differently, or re-type the content and create a new PDF. I have
had success with some more expensive products (Like CommonLook's Integrity
Validator), but have yet to see the cheap or free tool that can find and
correct these issues without a lot of technical knowledge.

On Thu, Sep 15, 2022 at 10:34 AM Jim Homme < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Hi,
> Is it possible to get a detailed report using Pac with a screen reader?
> It's not obvious to me.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Jim
>
> =========> Jim Homme
> Senior Digital Accessibility Consultant
> Bender Consulting Services
> 412-787-8567
> https://www.benderconsult.com/
> Support the dreams of independence through employment for students with
> disabilities with your Amazon purchases.
> https://smile.amazon.com/ch/83-0988251
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of
> Philip Kiff
> Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2022 8:54 AM
> To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] PDF: Parts Of Manually Tagged PDF Don't Show Up For
> Screen Reader
>
> Also, I just realized that whoever did the manual tagging must have
> Acrobat Pro, even if you don't?
>
> In that case, you might advise them to use the Find untagged content
> feature in Acrobat Pro. The idea here is that they missed tagging this
> content. And if that doesn't work, then maybe the content was artifacted by
> accident, which can be harder to fix without retagging whole pages or
> carefully manipulating the Content tree panel in Acrobat Pro.
>
> Phil.
>
> On 2022-09-15 08:47, Philip Kiff wrote:
> > Hi Jim,
> >
> > It's very difficult to come up with a troubleshooting approach without
> > more tools or more information. This sounds like a problem with the
> > source document and/or software, not a problem with Acrobat. But a
> > couple quick ideas come to mind:
> >
> > Check if you can select the missing text and copy and paste it from
> > the PDF in Adobe Reader:
> > Maybe the text is an image or incorrectly scanned document.
> >
> > Check source file for incorrect autonumbering format for those heading
> > 2's (if source is MS Word)?
> >
> > Check source file for incorrectly nested tags (if source is XML/HTML)?
> >
> > Use free PAC tool to compare simulated Screenreader output with PDF tags.
> > The PDF Accessibility Checker is free and includes these tools.
> > Available from:
> > https://pdfua.foundation/en
> >
> > Phil.
> >
> > Philip Kiff
> > D4K Communications
> >
> > On 2022-09-15 08:31, Jim Homme wrote:
> >> Hi,
> >> I don't have Adobe Pro, so I have pretty much no diagnostic tools at
> >> my disposal. I have a PDF that has a bunch of heading 2 tags that
> >> only contain the number 2 in the headings. The content below these
> >> headings is visually readable, but absent from the content for screen
> >> readers. The person who made the documents says something may have
> >> changed in the adobe software or somewhere else that is causing this
> >> to happen. How can we start approaching a solution to the issue?
> >>
> >> Thanks.
> >>
> >> Jim H
> >>
> >> Thanks.
> >>
> >> Jim
> >>
> >> =========> >> Jim Homme
> >> Senior Digital Accessibility Consultant Bender Consulting Services
> >> 412-787-8567
> >> https://www.benderconsult.com/
> >> Support the dreams of independence through employment for students
> >> with disabilities with your Amazon purchases.
> >> https://smile.amazon.com/ch/83-0988251
> > > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > > at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > > >

From: Steve Green
Date: Thu, Sep 15 2022 1:58PM
Subject: Re: PDF: Parts Of Manually Tagged PDF Don't Show Up For Screen Reader
← Previous message | Next message →

PAC will report if there is any untagged content that has not been artifacted and it will show you where it is. However, PAC can't fix anything.

It is possible that the missing content has been tagged, but it is in the wrong place in the reading order. If you don't have Acrobat, you would have to read the whole document to find out. If the document was created using Word, this is unlikely unless the missing content is in textboxes, in which case their position in the reading order depends on which paragraphs they are anchored to.

I would be happy to take a look if you want to send me the PDF.

Steve Green
Managing Director
Test Partners Ltd


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Jerra Strong
Sent: 15 September 2022 20:20
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] PDF: Parts Of Manually Tagged PDF Don't Show Up For Screen Reader

" There are frustrating "ghosts in the machine" stuff with PDFs"

I second what Jon said, there are some unfortunate "glitches" that pop up with PDFs and can be difficult to fix.

One option would be to clear the structure and start again to see if it behaves differently, or re-type the content and create a new PDF. I have had success with some more expensive products (Like CommonLook's Integrity Validator), but have yet to see the cheap or free tool that can find and correct these issues without a lot of technical knowledge.

On Thu, Sep 15, 2022 at 10:34 AM Jim Homme < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Hi,
> Is it possible to get a detailed report using Pac with a screen reader?
> It's not obvious to me.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Jim
>
> =========> Jim Homme
> Senior Digital Accessibility Consultant Bender Consulting Services
> 412-787-8567
> https://www.benderconsult.com/
> Support the dreams of independence through employment for students
> with disabilities with your Amazon purchases.
> https://smile.amazon.com/ch/83-0988251
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of
> Philip Kiff
> Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2022 8:54 AM
> To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] PDF: Parts Of Manually Tagged PDF Don't Show Up
> For Screen Reader
>
> Also, I just realized that whoever did the manual tagging must have
> Acrobat Pro, even if you don't?
>
> In that case, you might advise them to use the Find untagged content
> feature in Acrobat Pro. The idea here is that they missed tagging this
> content. And if that doesn't work, then maybe the content was
> artifacted by accident, which can be harder to fix without retagging
> whole pages or carefully manipulating the Content tree panel in Acrobat Pro.
>
> Phil.
>
> On 2022-09-15 08:47, Philip Kiff wrote:
> > Hi Jim,
> >
> > It's very difficult to come up with a troubleshooting approach
> > without more tools or more information. This sounds like a problem
> > with the source document and/or software, not a problem with
> > Acrobat. But a couple quick ideas come to mind:
> >
> > Check if you can select the missing text and copy and paste it from
> > the PDF in Adobe Reader:
> > Maybe the text is an image or incorrectly scanned document.
> >
> > Check source file for incorrect autonumbering format for those
> > heading 2's (if source is MS Word)?
> >
> > Check source file for incorrectly nested tags (if source is XML/HTML)?
> >
> > Use free PAC tool to compare simulated Screenreader output with PDF tags.
> > The PDF Accessibility Checker is free and includes these tools.
> > Available from:
> > https://pdfua.foundation/en
> >
> > Phil.
> >
> > Philip Kiff
> > D4K Communications
> >
> > On 2022-09-15 08:31, Jim Homme wrote:
> >> Hi,
> >> I don't have Adobe Pro, so I have pretty much no diagnostic tools
> >> at my disposal. I have a PDF that has a bunch of heading 2 tags
> >> that only contain the number 2 in the headings. The content below
> >> these headings is visually readable, but absent from the content
> >> for screen readers. The person who made the documents says
> >> something may have changed in the adobe software or somewhere else
> >> that is causing this to happen. How can we start approaching a solution to the issue?
> >>
> >> Thanks.
> >>
> >> Jim H
> >>
> >> Thanks.
> >>
> >> Jim
> >>
> >> =========> >> Jim Homme
> >> Senior Digital Accessibility Consultant Bender Consulting Services
> >> 412-787-8567
> >> https://www.benderconsult.com/
> >> Support the dreams of independence through employment for students
> >> with disabilities with your Amazon purchases.
> >> https://smile.amazon.com/ch/83-0988251
> > > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >

From: Alan Zaitchik
Date: Thu, Sep 15 2022 5:08PM
Subject: Re: PDF: Parts Of Manually Tagged PDF Don't Show Up For Screen Reader
← Previous message | No next message

Yes. There’s a Detailed Report button, but you cannot save it easily to a file. You need to copy-paste it.
I’d also use the Logical Structure button in the PAC ui and check to see if
the heading tags have no tagged content. I had the problem you report when a heading tag had no content—the heading level itself was read out by nvda as the content of the heading tag.
Alan

> On Sep 15, 2022, at 13:34, Jim Homme < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> Hi,
> Is it possible to get a detailed report using Pac with a screen reader? It's not obvious to me.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Jim
>
> =========> Jim Homme
> Senior Digital Accessibility Consultant
> Bender Consulting Services
> 412-787-8567
> https://www.benderconsult.com/
> Support the dreams of independence through employment for students with disabilities with your Amazon purchases.
> https://smile.amazon.com/ch/83-0988251
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Philip Kiff
> Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2022 8:54 AM
> To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] PDF: Parts Of Manually Tagged PDF Don't Show Up For Screen Reader
>
> Also, I just realized that whoever did the manual tagging must have Acrobat Pro, even if you don't?
>
> In that case, you might advise them to use the Find untagged content feature in Acrobat Pro. The idea here is that they missed tagging this content. And if that doesn't work, then maybe the content was artifacted by accident, which can be harder to fix without retagging whole pages or carefully manipulating the Content tree panel in Acrobat Pro.
>
> Phil.
>
>> On 2022-09-15 08:47, Philip Kiff wrote:
>> Hi Jim,
>>
>> It's very difficult to come up with a troubleshooting approach without
>> more tools or more information. This sounds like a problem with the
>> source document and/or software, not a problem with Acrobat. But a
>> couple quick ideas come to mind:
>>
>> Check if you can select the missing text and copy and paste it from
>> the PDF in Adobe Reader:
>> Maybe the text is an image or incorrectly scanned document.
>>
>> Check source file for incorrect autonumbering format for those heading
>> 2's (if source is MS Word)?
>>
>> Check source file for incorrectly nested tags (if source is XML/HTML)?
>>
>> Use free PAC tool to compare simulated Screenreader output with PDF tags.
>> The PDF Accessibility Checker is free and includes these tools.
>> Available from:
>> https://pdfua.foundation/en
>>
>> Phil.
>>
>> Philip Kiff
>> D4K Communications
>>
>>> On 2022-09-15 08:31, Jim Homme wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>> I don't have Adobe Pro, so I have pretty much no diagnostic tools at
>>> my disposal. I have a PDF that has a bunch of heading 2 tags that
>>> only contain the number 2 in the headings. The content below these
>>> headings is visually readable, but absent from the content for screen
>>> readers. The person who made the documents says something may have
>>> changed in the adobe software or somewhere else that is causing this
>>> to happen. How can we start approaching a solution to the issue?
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>> Jim H
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>> Jim
>>>
>>> =========>>> Jim Homme
>>> Senior Digital Accessibility Consultant Bender Consulting Services
>>> 412-787-8567
>>> https://www.benderconsult.com/
>>> Support the dreams of independence through employment for students
>>> with disabilities with your Amazon purchases.
>>> https://smile.amazon.com/ch/83-0988251
>> >> >> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> > > >