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Thread: Underlines in Forms
Number of posts in this thread: 6 (In chronological order)
From: Sherman, Joseph
Date: Wed, Mar 01 2023 4:51PM
Subject: Underlines in Forms
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Hi all.
I am remediating a PDF Form in Adobe. The author put in underlines in the Word document and used the Autodetect Form Fields command. The problem is that JAWS reads all the Underlines (underline, underline, underline), which is annoying (NVDA does not read the underlines). If I try to Artifact the Underlines from the Content Panel, for some reason the entire content of the Container gets untagged, instead of just the Underline. For example, I have put the Underlines from a section in an Artifact, but the entire section has been untagged for some reason. I can see the empty <P> tag.
I know they can remove the underlines from the Word document and manually add the Form Fields, but there are many fields and the Autodetect Form Fields command is convenient.
Is there a way to convert to PDF without it putting the Underlines in Content that JAWS will read? Or is there a way to Artifact the Underlines without untagging the Content section?
Thank you,
Joseph
From: L Snider
Date: Wed, Mar 01 2023 4:54PM
Subject: Re: Underlines in Forms
← Previous message | Next message →
Hi Joseph,
I have found it is better to not do anything for the answer area, and then
use the forms part in Acrobat Pro to make those answer fields. You have to
make those answer fields more accessible in Acrobat and check the tags, but
it comes out way better. Those lines can be darn annoying!
Cheers
Lisa
On Wed, Mar 1, 2023 at 7:51â¯PM Sherman, Joseph <
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Hi all.
> I am remediating a PDF Form in Adobe. The author put in underlines in the
> Word document and used the Autodetect Form Fields command. The problem is
> that JAWS reads all the Underlines (underline, underline, underline), which
> is annoying (NVDA does not read the underlines). If I try to Artifact the
> Underlines from the Content Panel, for some reason the entire content of
> the Container gets untagged, instead of just the Underline. For example, I
> have put the Underlines from a section in an Artifact, but the entire
> section has been untagged for some reason. I can see the empty <P> tag.
>
> I know they can remove the underlines from the Word document and manually
> add the Form Fields, but there are many fields and the Autodetect Form
> Fields command is convenient.
>
> Is there a way to convert to PDF without it putting the Underlines in
> Content that JAWS will read? Or is there a way to Artifact the Underlines
> without untagging the Content section?
>
> Thank you,
>
>
> Joseph
>
> > > > >
From: Jerra Strong
Date: Wed, Mar 01 2023 4:55PM
Subject: Re: Underlines in Forms
← Previous message | Next message →
One way is to insert lines as shapes in Microsoft Word, then they can be
marked as "decorative" and won't be tagged in the final PDF, but they'll
still be there for the PDF to detect. As a fellow gov't employee, please
feel free to message me directly if you have some PDF form questions.
On Wed, Mar 1, 2023 at 3:51â¯PM Sherman, Joseph <
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Hi all.
> I am remediating a PDF Form in Adobe. The author put in underlines in the
> Word document and used the Autodetect Form Fields command. The problem is
> that JAWS reads all the Underlines (underline, underline, underline), which
> is annoying (NVDA does not read the underlines). If I try to Artifact the
> Underlines from the Content Panel, for some reason the entire content of
> the Container gets untagged, instead of just the Underline. For example, I
> have put the Underlines from a section in an Artifact, but the entire
> section has been untagged for some reason. I can see the empty <P> tag.
>
> I know they can remove the underlines from the Word document and manually
> add the Form Fields, but there are many fields and the Autodetect Form
> Fields command is convenient.
>
> Is there a way to convert to PDF without it putting the Underlines in
> Content that JAWS will read? Or is there a way to Artifact the Underlines
> without untagging the Content section?
>
> Thank you,
>
>
> Joseph
>
> > > > >
From: chagnon@pubcom.com
Date: Wed, Mar 01 2023 5:16PM
Subject: Re: Underlines in Forms
← Previous message | Next message →
Oo oo oo, always a sore topic for me when our assistive technologies don't completely follow the standards, especially PDF/UA. We shouldn't have to customize our code to satisfy a particular screen reader.
Joseph, can you tell from the PDF's File / Document Properties which software was used? Looking for:
â Version of Word or MS Office.
â PDF Producer (the tool that converted the source Word file to PDF). Was it Adobe PDF Maker (also known as PDF Library)? Or does is say MS Word? Need version number for this, too.
As far as I know, both the Adobe PDF Maker and Microsoft internal converter were properly coding underlines so that they wouldn't be voiced. If older software is used for either Word or PDF Maker, there could be problems.
For a quick reference, here are Microsoft's and Adobe's website for latest release builds. Compare them with what's on your system.
Microsoft: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/officeupdates
Adobe Acrobat and PDF Maker: https://helpx.adobe.com/acrobat/release-note/release-notes-acrobat-reader.html
âBevi Chagnon
US Delegate to the ISO for PDF and PDF/UA standards
â â â
Bevi Chagnon | Designer, Accessibility Technician | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
â â â
PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing
consulting ⢠training ⢠development ⢠design ⢠sec. 508 services
Upcoming classes at www.PubCom.com/classes
â â â
Latest blog-newsletter â Simple Guide to Writing Alt-Text
-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Sherman, Joseph
Sent: Wednesday, March 1, 2023 6:51 PM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: [WebAIM] Underlines in Forms
Hi all.
I am remediating a PDF Form in Adobe. The author put in underlines in the Word document and used the Autodetect Form Fields command. The problem is that JAWS reads all the Underlines (underline, underline, underline), which is annoying (NVDA does not read the underlines). If I try to Artifact the Underlines from the Content Panel, for some reason the entire content of the Container gets untagged, instead of just the Underline. For example, I have put the Underlines from a section in an Artifact, but the entire section has been untagged for some reason. I can see the empty <P> tag.
I know they can remove the underlines from the Word document and manually add the Form Fields, but there are many fields and the Autodetect Form Fields command is convenient.
Is there a way to convert to PDF without it putting the Underlines in Content that JAWS will read? Or is there a way to Artifact the Underlines without untagging the Content section?
Thank you,
Joseph
From: Karen McCall
Date: Thu, Mar 02 2023 4:20AM
Subject: Re: Underlines in Forms
← Previous message | Next message →
I don't recommend adding shapes or lines in a form template.
First, you end up with the problem you have with JAWS or TTS tools reading them.
Second, there are times when you try to reorder things on a page and all of the underlines end up in one Tag which forces you to remediate them as artifacts or focus will jump all over the page as someone goes through the form.
Third, you have to cover the shapes that were added for check boxes or radio buttons which limits the size of form controls.
Fourth, the shapes used for check boxes or radio buttons often show up as "character code errors" in an accessibility check because they are not Unicode characters.
I never use the auto detect form controls as it tends to create more work than it helps.
In the Appearance tab in the form control properties, you can add an underline to the form control itself which is my approach. That takes the "underline" out of the body of the document and associates it with the form control itself.
I create, and teach how to create, a clean form template that then gives you the flexibility to ensure that form controls are an appropriate size and can be placed near the text/question.
That would be my fifth reason for not adding them in the form template...you are stuck having them in the position of the template which might be too far away from the text for someone using screen magnification.
The sixth reason is that sometimes people choose a square to indicate what should be a radio button, or, in at least two forms I've worked on, they've used blue dots to indicate a radio button. Not sure what the rationale is, but there you go.
Oh, and the seventh reason not to add them in a form template is that even people who are mouse dependent will try to click on them and get frustrated.
JAWS will only read three instances of "underline" even if there are more than three instances. We are used to that. However, for forms, just create clean forms and then add the form controls using the Appearance tab sparingly.
Do not adjust colours of form controls or make them "pretty". When you do anything in terms of changing the appearance of a form control, you over ride the end-user's choices they made in the Preferences dialog. I only use the Appearance tab to create the black underline effect! That is minimal intrusion on the user preferences.
Cheers, Karen
-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Sent: Wednesday, March 1, 2023 7:17 PM
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Underlines in Forms
Oo oo oo, always a sore topic for me when our assistive technologies don't completely follow the standards, especially PDF/UA. We shouldn't have to customize our code to satisfy a particular screen reader.
Joseph, can you tell from the PDF's File / Document Properties which software was used? Looking for:
- Version of Word or MS Office.
- PDF Producer (the tool that converted the source Word file to PDF). Was it Adobe PDF Maker (also known as PDF Library)? Or does is say MS Word? Need version number for this, too.
As far as I know, both the Adobe PDF Maker and Microsoft internal converter were properly coding underlines so that they wouldn't be voiced. If older software is used for either Word or PDF Maker, there could be problems.
For a quick reference, here are Microsoft's and Adobe's website for latest release builds. Compare them with what's on your system.
Microsoft: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdocs.microsoft.com%2Fen-us%2Fofficeupdates&data%7C01%7C%7Cefdd6dbfe8e2408f8a2a08db1ab38f7c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638133130732267782%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdataª45p3XkEexQGzm%2BrvpJ9IRThNizukV8bK0urVSPzSM%3D&reserved=0
Adobe Acrobat and PDF Maker: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fhelpx.adobe.com%2Facrobat%2Frelease-note%2Frelease-notes-acrobat-reader.html&data%7C01%7C%7Cefdd6dbfe8e2408f8a2a08db1ab38f7c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638133130732267782%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=ev4dLQrMaSuQmsX2Ip8xXAg6Kt0oRlYVPXgF%2FefuB7w%3D&reserved=0
-Bevi Chagnon
US Delegate to the ISO for PDF and PDF/UA standards
- - -
Bevi Chagnon | Designer, Accessibility Technician | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = - - -
PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing consulting * training * development * design * sec. 508 services Upcoming classes at https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pubcom.com%2Fclasses&data%7C01%7C%7Cefdd6dbfe8e2408f8a2a08db1ab38f7c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638133130732267782%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=xkyTD4JoJqLUnMLfmfBwswyU8FeotaCBDTDTimEOhRs%3D&reserved=0
- - -
Latest blog-newsletter - Simple Guide to Writing Alt-Text
-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Sherman, Joseph
Sent: Wednesday, March 1, 2023 6:51 PM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: [WebAIM] Underlines in Forms
Hi all.
I am remediating a PDF Form in Adobe. The author put in underlines in the Word document and used the Autodetect Form Fields command. The problem is that JAWS reads all the Underlines (underline, underline, underline), which is annoying (NVDA does not read the underlines). If I try to Artifact the Underlines from the Content Panel, for some reason the entire content of the Container gets untagged, instead of just the Underline. For example, I have put the Underlines from a section in an Artifact, but the entire section has been untagged for some reason. I can see the empty <P> tag.
I know they can remove the underlines from the Word document and manually add the Form Fields, but there are many fields and the Autodetect Form Fields command is convenient.
Is there a way to convert to PDF without it putting the Underlines in Content that JAWS will read? Or is there a way to Artifact the Underlines without untagging the Content section?
Thank you,
Joseph
From: chagnon@pubcom.com
Date: Thu, Mar 02 2023 5:15PM
Subject: Re: Underlines in Forms
← Previous message | No next message
Seconding everything Karen McCall pointed out.
Making a form is so much more than using that blankety-blank automated forms
tool in Acrobat Pro.
One item to add: the reason why the radio button and checkbox characters
become character encoding errors is because MS Word still uses the old ANSI
TrueType font for those glyphs - and that font is not Unicode. (Usually it's
the Symbol or Wingdings font.) Unicode is the font encoding standard
required by all accessibility standards - WCAG, PDF/UA, and EPUB. A better
font to use is Segoe UI Symbol which is Unicode and has the ballot box glyph
(Unicode codepoint 2610) which is interpreted correctly by assistive
technologies.
But as Karen said, it's best not to have those visual glyphs in the form at
all because the Acrobat form field creates the visible shape for those who
are sighted and should also hold the accessibility info needed by those
using screen readers and other A T.
The best program for creating accessible PDF forms is Adobe InDesign, not
Word or even LiveCycle Designer (now known as A E M). The designer has
precise control over placement of every element, can artifact the heck out
of the visual clutter that's not needed, and can include the form fields
themselves in the layout. After exporting, the form often needs little
remediation. For those who need to update a form on a regular basis, it's
worth learning how to create it in InDesign; it's so much quicker to edit a
form in InDesign than in Acrobat.
Karen's class for PDF forms is excellent, if you're starting from a Word
document.
We have an InDesign forms class scheduled for later this spring,
www.PubCom.com
- - -
Bevi Chagnon | Designer, Accessibility Technician | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
- - -
PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing
consulting . training . development . design . sec. 508 services
Upcoming classes at www.PubCom.com/classes
- - -
Latest blog-newsletter - Simple Guide to Writing Alt-Text
-----Original Message-----
From: Karen McCall < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Thursday, March 2, 2023 6:21 AM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ; WebAIM Discussion List
< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: RE: [WebAIM] Underlines in Forms
I don't recommend adding shapes or lines in a form template.
First, you end up with the problem you have with JAWS or TTS tools reading
them.
Second, there are times when you try to reorder things on a page and all of
the underlines end up in one Tag which forces you to remediate them as
artifacts or focus will jump all over the page as someone goes through the
form.
Third, you have to cover the shapes that were added for check boxes or radio
buttons which limits the size of form controls.
Fourth, the shapes used for check boxes or radio buttons often show up as
"character code errors" in an accessibility check because they are not
Unicode characters.
I never use the auto detect form controls as it tends to create more work
than it helps.
In the Appearance tab in the form control properties, you can add an
underline to the form control itself which is my approach. That takes the
"underline" out of the body of the document and associates it with the form
control itself.
I create, and teach how to create, a clean form template that then gives you
the flexibility to ensure that form controls are an appropriate size and can
be placed near the text/question.
That would be my fifth reason for not adding them in the form template...you
are stuck having them in the position of the template which might be too far
away from the text for someone using screen magnification.
The sixth reason is that sometimes people choose a square to indicate what
should be a radio button, or, in at least two forms I've worked on, they've
used blue dots to indicate a radio button. Not sure what the rationale is,
but there you go.
Oh, and the seventh reason not to add them in a form template is that even
people who are mouse dependent will try to click on them and get frustrated.
JAWS will only read three instances of "underline" even if there are more
than three instances. We are used to that. However, for forms, just create
clean forms and then add the form controls using the Appearance tab
sparingly.
Do not adjust colours of form controls or make them "pretty". When you do
anything in terms of changing the appearance of a form control, you over
ride the end-user's choices they made in the Preferences dialog. I only use
the Appearance tab to create the black underline effect! That is minimal
intrusion on the user preferences.
Cheers, Karen
-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Sent: Wednesday, March 1, 2023 7:17 PM
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Underlines in Forms
Oo oo oo, always a sore topic for me when our assistive technologies don't
completely follow the standards, especially PDF/UA. We shouldn't have to
customize our code to satisfy a particular screen reader.
Joseph, can you tell from the PDF's File / Document Properties which
software was used? Looking for:
- Version of Word or MS Office.
- PDF Producer (the tool that converted the source Word file to PDF). Was it
Adobe PDF Maker (also known as PDF Library)? Or does is say MS Word? Need
version number for this, too.
As far as I know, both the Adobe PDF Maker and Microsoft internal converter
were properly coding underlines so that they wouldn't be voiced. If older
software is used for either Word or PDF Maker, there could be problems.
For a quick reference, here are Microsoft's and Adobe's website for latest
release builds. Compare them with what's on your system.
Microsoft:
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdocs.micros
oft.com%2Fen-us%2Fofficeupdates&data%7C01%7C%7Cefdd6dbfe8e2408f8a2a08db1a
b38f7c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638133130732267782%7CUnk
nown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXV
CI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdataª45p3XkEexQGzm%2BrvpJ9IRThNizukV8bK0urVSPzS
M%3D&reserved=0
Adobe Acrobat and PDF Maker:
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fhelpx.adobe
.com%2Facrobat%2Frelease-note%2Frelease-notes-acrobat-reader.html&data%7C
01%7C%7Cefdd6dbfe8e2408f8a2a08db1ab38f7c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%
7C1%7C0%7C638133130732267782%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJ
QIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=ev4dLQrMaS
uQmsX2Ip8xXAg6Kt0oRlYVPXgF%2FefuB7w%3D&reserved=0
-Bevi Chagnon
US Delegate to the ISO for PDF and PDF/UA standards
- - -
Bevi Chagnon | Designer, Accessibility Technician | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = - -
-
PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing consulting *
training * development * design * sec. 508 services Upcoming classes at
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pubcom.c
om%2Fclasses&data%7C01%7C%7Cefdd6dbfe8e2408f8a2a08db1ab38f7c%7C84df9e7fe9
f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638133130732267782%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8
eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C
%7C%7C&sdata=xkyTD4JoJqLUnMLfmfBwswyU8FeotaCBDTDTimEOhRs%3D&reserved=0
- - -
Latest blog-newsletter - Simple Guide to Writing Alt-Text
-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of
Sherman, Joseph
Sent: Wednesday, March 1, 2023 6:51 PM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: [WebAIM] Underlines in Forms
Hi all.
I am remediating a PDF Form in Adobe. The author put in underlines in the
Word document and used the Autodetect Form Fields command. The problem is
that JAWS reads all the Underlines (underline, underline, underline), which
is annoying (NVDA does not read the underlines). If I try to Artifact the
Underlines from the Content Panel, for some reason the entire content of the
Container gets untagged, instead of just the Underline. For example, I have
put the Underlines from a section in an Artifact, but the entire section has
been untagged for some reason. I can see the empty <P> tag.
I know they can remove the underlines from the Word document and manually
add the Form Fields, but there are many fields and the Autodetect Form
Fields command is convenient.
Is there a way to convert to PDF without it putting the Underlines in
Content that JAWS will read? Or is there a way to Artifact the Underlines
without untagging the Content section?
Thank you,
Joseph
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