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Number of posts in this thread: 7 (In chronological order)

From: Laura Roberts
Date: Tue, Apr 04 2023 10:45AM
Subject: hard returns vs before/after spacing style
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Hoping Bevi responds to this!

My habit in word docs is to create various styles with paragraph
before/after spacing. Makes it less likely that hard returns will carry
over the wrong spacing and subsequently I have to comb through the document
making corrections.

As far as PDF/UA is concerned, is there a preference for paragraph spacing
styles or hard returns? (I have a client who only wants default paragraph
style and hard returns.)

I haven't thought about this in a long time!

--
Best regards,
Laura Roberts
413-588-8422

From: Jerra Strong
Date: Tue, Apr 04 2023 10:58AM
Subject: Re: hard returns vs before/after spacing style
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Using two returns in a row to create space will mean that screen readers
voice "blank" between each paragraph, sometimes more than once, depending
on the amount of space you need. In my trainings, I always advise against
doing this where paragraph spacing will do the trick. Besides, you get
more control over the amount of space between elements when using paragraph
spacing.

On Tue, Apr 4, 2023 at 9:46 AM Laura Roberts < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Hoping Bevi responds to this!
>
> My habit in word docs is to create various styles with paragraph
> before/after spacing. Makes it less likely that hard returns will carry
> over the wrong spacing and subsequently I have to comb through the document
> making corrections.
>
> As far as PDF/UA is concerned, is there a preference for paragraph spacing
> styles or hard returns? (I have a client who only wants default paragraph
> style and hard returns.)
>
> I haven't thought about this in a long time!
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Laura Roberts
> 413-588-8422
> > > > >

From: Karen McCall
Date: Tue, Apr 04 2023 11:08AM
Subject: Re: hard returns vs before/after spacing style
← Previous message | Next message →

I agree and I don't think there is anything in PDF or PDF/UA that dictates how to add spacing before or after text.

As a Microsoft MVP for Office Apps and services, and a Microsoft Accessibility MVP, I always teach people to add the paragraph spacing to the style they are using or create a new style with the before and after spacing they want/need instead of pressing Enter. There is more control over the content as well as consistency in the look and feel.

When the content is converted to tagged PDF, the spacing comes with it and there are no blank lines in the PDF IF the spacing has been added to the style in Word, for example.

It is for this reason, avoiding the "blank blank" syndrome that I also teach how to adjust the cell margins in tables instead of pressing Enter to create space.

Cheers, Karen

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Jerra Strong
Sent: Tuesday, April 4, 2023 12:59 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] hard returns vs before/after spacing style

Using two returns in a row to create space will mean that screen readers voice "blank" between each paragraph, sometimes more than once, depending on the amount of space you need. In my trainings, I always advise against doing this where paragraph spacing will do the trick. Besides, you get more control over the amount of space between elements when using paragraph spacing.

On Tue, Apr 4, 2023 at 9:46 AM Laura Roberts < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Hoping Bevi responds to this!
>
> My habit in word docs is to create various styles with paragraph
> before/after spacing. Makes it less likely that hard returns will
> carry over the wrong spacing and subsequently I have to comb through
> the document making corrections.
>
> As far as PDF/UA is concerned, is there a preference for paragraph
> spacing styles or hard returns? (I have a client who only wants
> default paragraph style and hard returns.)
>
> I haven't thought about this in a long time!
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Laura Roberts
> 413-588-8422
> > > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flist.w
> ebaim.org%2F&data%7C01%7C%7Cd3cda4cf47d84652b8e308db352de84e%7C84df
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> I6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=yupR%2BAeB1RfA4MrnRoZRU6G1cV8plDcla40Ln
> DSd%2FdU%3D&reserved=0 List archives at
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> >

From: Guy Hickling
Date: Wed, Apr 05 2023 11:44AM
Subject: Re: hard returns vs before/after spacing style
← Previous message | Next message →

> I have a client who only wants default paragraph style and hard returns.

It's probably just a case that your client has never thought about amending
the built-in paragraph styles, or doesn't know how to, and they certainly
won't be aware of the "blank blank" syndrome in screen readers. If you
explain that to them, and show them how to amend the MS styles, and the
advantages to themselves in more consistency, hopefully they'll change.
A11y is really all about educating clients to do the right thing!

From: jeffgutsell@fuse.net
Date: Wed, Apr 05 2023 12:18PM
Subject: Re: hard returns vs before/after spacing style
← Previous message | Next message →

Custom styles also can save authors time by automatically creating page breaks that do not appear in the middle of paragraphs or table rows. Styles can ensure that headings do not get orphaned at the bottom of pages. I think the default paragraph line height is too dense for body text on 8.5x11 pages It is a bit of an accessibility improvement to bump up the line height.

Jeff Gutsell


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Guy Hickling
Sent: Wednesday, April 5, 2023 1:44 PM
To: webaim-forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] hard returns vs before/after spacing style

> I have a client who only wants default paragraph style and hard returns.

It's probably just a case that your client has never thought about amending the built-in paragraph styles, or doesn't know how to, and they certainly won't be aware of the "blank blank" syndrome in screen readers. If you explain that to them, and show them how to amend the MS styles, and the advantages to themselves in more consistency, hopefully they'll change.
A11y is really all about educating clients to do the right thing!

From: chagnon@pubcom.com
Date: Wed, Apr 05 2023 3:12PM
Subject: Re: hard returns vs before/after spacing style
← Previous message | Next message →

One of the most common things my student say after a class, especially Accessible Word, is how much faster it takes them to create their reports and other documents.
Shorter time, easier to format, and it's accessible. What's not to love?!

And yet most of what I teach — styles, no manual formatting, page breaks, TOCs, footnotes, et al — has roots in what I taught in my DOS word processing classes in the 1980s.

The second most popular thing I hear from students: why didn't I learn how to do this 20 years ago? I just can't answer that one!

—Bevi Chagnon

— — —
Bevi Chagnon | Designer, Accessibility Technician | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
— — —
PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing
consulting • training • development • design • sec. 508 services
Upcoming classes at www.PubCom.com/classes
— — —
Latest blog-newsletter – Simple Guide to Writing Alt-Text

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Sent: Wednesday, April 5, 2023 2:19 PM
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] hard returns vs before/after spacing style

Custom styles also can save authors time by automatically creating page breaks that do not appear in the middle of paragraphs or table rows. Styles can ensure that headings do not get orphaned at the bottom of pages. I think the default paragraph line height is too dense for body text on 8.5x11 pages It is a bit of an accessibility improvement to bump up the line height.

Jeff Gutsell


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Guy Hickling
Sent: Wednesday, April 5, 2023 1:44 PM
To: webaim-forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] hard returns vs before/after spacing style

> I have a client who only wants default paragraph style and hard returns.

It's probably just a case that your client has never thought about amending the built-in paragraph styles, or doesn't know how to, and they certainly won't be aware of the "blank blank" syndrome in screen readers. If you explain that to them, and show them how to amend the MS styles, and the advantages to themselves in more consistency, hopefully they'll change.
A11y is really all about educating clients to do the right thing!

From: Karen McCall
Date: Thu, Apr 06 2023 8:07AM
Subject: Re: hard returns vs before/after spacing style
← Previous message | No next message

+1
I get the same comments!

Cheers, Karen

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Sent: Wednesday, April 5, 2023 5:13 PM
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] hard returns vs before/after spacing style

One of the most common things my student say after a class, especially Accessible Word, is how much faster it takes them to create their reports and other documents.
Shorter time, easier to format, and it's accessible. What's not to love?!

And yet most of what I teach - styles, no manual formatting, page breaks, TOCs, footnotes, et al - has roots in what I taught in my DOS word processing classes in the 1980s.

The second most popular thing I hear from students: why didn't I learn how to do this 20 years ago? I just can't answer that one!

-Bevi Chagnon

- - -
Bevi Chagnon | Designer, Accessibility Technician | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = - - -
PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing consulting * training * development * design * sec. 508 services Upcoming classes at http://www.pubcom.com/classes
- - -
Latest blog-newsletter - Simple Guide to Writing Alt-Text

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Sent: Wednesday, April 5, 2023 2:19 PM
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] hard returns vs before/after spacing style

Custom styles also can save authors time by automatically creating page breaks that do not appear in the middle of paragraphs or table rows. Styles can ensure that headings do not get orphaned at the bottom of pages. I think the default paragraph line height is too dense for body text on 8.5x11 pages It is a bit of an accessibility improvement to bump up the line height.

Jeff Gutsell


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Guy Hickling
Sent: Wednesday, April 5, 2023 1:44 PM
To: webaim-forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] hard returns vs before/after spacing style

> I have a client who only wants default paragraph style and hard returns.

It's probably just a case that your client has never thought about amending the built-in paragraph styles, or doesn't know how to, and they certainly won't be aware of the "blank blank" syndrome in screen readers. If you explain that to them, and show them how to amend the MS styles, and the advantages to themselves in more consistency, hopefully they'll change.
A11y is really all about educating clients to do the right thing!