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Thread: Alt text for PDF org chart
Number of posts in this thread: 8 (In chronological order)
From: Suzanne Arden
Date: Tue, Nov 14 2023 8:46AM
Subject: Alt text for PDF org chart
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What is the best way to describe a lengthy org chart in a PDF document?
Suzanne Arden
c: 202-669-8228
From: Hayman, Douglass
Date: Tue, Nov 14 2023 8:57AM
Subject: Re: - Alt text for PDF org chart
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Suzanne,
Without seeing the chart in question it is difficult to come up with THE answer. But I think that some PDFs I've seen done in a creative and accessible manner, will have the various elements as perhaps list items, headings and so on. While the chart may remain the same visually, the screen reader user can navigate the components in another way. I've also seen where the ALT text will provide the equivalent information provided in a bar graph or pie chart while other PDFs will have those various components as list items.
Doug Hayman
IT Accessibility Coordinator
Information Technology
Olympic College
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
(360) 475-7632
-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Suzanne Arden via WebAIM-Forum
Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2023 7:46 AM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Cc: Suzanne Arden < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: [EXTERNAL] - [WebAIM] Alt text for PDF org chart
CAUTION: This email came from a non-OC system or external source. Beware of phishing and social engineering!
What is the best way to describe a lengthy org chart in a PDF document?
Suzanne Arden
c: 202-669-8228
From: Steve Green
Date: Tue, Nov 14 2023 9:11AM
Subject: Re: Alt text for PDF org chart
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It depends on the relationships. I have marked-up org charts as nested lists, but that only works if each person reports to one person above them. There are no semantics to describe more complex relationships such as sideways reporting (where someone reports to someone else at the same level), people who report to more than one person, or groups that include people from different branches of the tree.
Steve Green
Managing Director
Test Partners Ltd
-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Suzanne Arden via WebAIM-Forum
Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2023 3:46 PM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Cc: Suzanne Arden < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: [WebAIM] Alt text for PDF org chart
What is the best way to describe a lengthy org chart in a PDF document?
Suzanne Arden
c: 202-669-8228
From: L Snider
Date: Tue, Nov 14 2023 9:17AM
Subject: Re: Alt text for PDF org chart
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You really should have text in the document describing it, as well as alt
text. The alt text depends on a few factors, because you have to do name,
title and place in the hierarchy. it is hard to say without seeing it.
If you have the text below it, then the alt can be simple. Then everyone
can benefit from the text and image, if you can change the PDF.
Cheers
Lisa
On Tue, Nov 14, 2023 at 11:46â¯AM Suzanne Arden via WebAIM-Forum <
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> What is the best way to describe a lengthy org chart in a PDF document?
> Suzanne Arden
> c: 202-669-8228
>
> > > > >
From: Suzanne Arden
Date: Tue, Nov 14 2023 9:46AM
Subject: Re: - Alt text for PDF org chart
← Previous message | Next message →
Thanks to everyone who responded so quickly to my question. I have a follow-up for Dough: Just to clarify, would I create a list group within the <figure> tag, underneath the "Image" tag, that would have each position as its own list item? That would not change the pdf visual, but would the screen reader read it since it's a group of tags? I would simiply alt tag the jpg in the pdf as "Org chart for ...[company]" since the list grouping would give the greater detail. Does that make sense?
Suzanne Arden
c: 202-669-8228
On Tuesday, November 14, 2023 at 10:57:39 AM EST, Hayman, Douglass < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
Suzanne,
Without seeing the chart in question it is difficult to come up with THE answer. But I think that some PDFs I've seen done in a creative and accessible manner, will have the various elements as perhaps list items, headings and so on. While the chart may remain the same visually, the screen reader user can navigate the components in another way. I've also seen where the ALT text will provide the equivalent information provided in a bar graph or pie chart while other PDFs will have those various components as list items.
Doug Hayman
IT Accessibility Coordinator
Information Technology
Olympic College
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
(360) 475-7632
-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Suzanne Arden via WebAIM-Forum
Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2023 7:46 AM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Cc: Suzanne Arden < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: [EXTERNAL] - [WebAIM] Alt text for PDF org chart
CAUTION: This email came from a non-OC system or external source. Beware of phishing and social engineering!
What is the best way to describe a lengthy org chart in a PDF document?
Suzanne Arden
c: 202-669-8228
From: Dax Castro
Date: Tue, Nov 14 2023 9:49AM
Subject: Re: - Alt text for PDF org chart
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Given your approach, I would tag the figure of the org chart "XYZ company Org chart as represented in the multi-level list that follows."
This gives the user a heads up as to your approach and an expected interpretation of the information.
Hope that helps.
Dax Castro, ADS
Adobe-Certified
PDF Accessibility Trainer
www.accessibilityUnraveled.com
C:916-856-9347
-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Suzanne Arden via WebAIM-Forum
Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2023 8:47 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >; Hayman, Douglass < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Cc: Suzanne Arden < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] [EXTERNAL] - Alt text for PDF org chart
Thanks to everyone who responded so quickly to my question. I have a follow-up for Dough: Just to clarify, would I create a list group within the <figure> tag, underneath the "Image" tag, that would have each position as its own list item? That would not change the pdf visual, but would the screen reader read it since it's a group of tags? I would simiply alt tag the jpg in the pdf as "Org chart for ...[company]" since the list grouping would give the greater detail. Does that make sense?
Suzanne Arden
c: 202-669-8228
On Tuesday, November 14, 2023 at 10:57:39 AM EST, Hayman, Douglass < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
Suzanne,
Without seeing the chart in question it is difficult to come up with THE answer. But I think that some PDFs I've seen done in a creative and accessible manner, will have the various elements as perhaps list items, headings and so on. While the chart may remain the same visually, the screen reader user can navigate the components in another way. I've also seen where the ALT text will provide the equivalent information provided in a bar graph or pie chart while other PDFs will have those various components as list items.
Doug Hayman
IT Accessibility Coordinator
Information Technology
Olympic College
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
(360) 475-7632
-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Suzanne Arden via WebAIM-Forum
Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2023 7:46 AM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Cc: Suzanne Arden < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: [EXTERNAL] - [WebAIM] Alt text for PDF org chart
CAUTION: This email came from a non-OC system or external source. Beware of phishing and social engineering!
What is the best way to describe a lengthy org chart in a PDF document?
Suzanne Arden
c: 202-669-8228
From: chagnon@pubcom.com
Date: Tue, Nov 14 2023 1:41PM
Subject: Re: - Alt text for PDF org chart
← Previous message | Next message →
Because Alt Text is an attribute on a tag (usually the <Figure> tag), it can't have any semantics (such as headings and lists). Alt Text is just a blah blah blah run-on of word soup without much to distinguish the text for those using screen readers.
Plus, per the PDF/UA standard, <Figure> tags can't have lists and tables nested inside the <Figure> tag itself. Practically, I don't know of any assistive technology that can access the <Caption> tag when it's nested inside <Figure> even though that's legal per PDF/UA.
So putting Alt Text on an organizational chart graphic will always be less than ideal for the end user. In most cases, it's barely readable and understandable.
Some options we've developed for our clients are:
1. Use a live-text list that's available to all users. Some options:
â A list in a <Caption> after the chart graphic.
â Hyperlinked to a list in an appendix added to the PDF, or to a webpage on a website. Wording like "An accessible version of this organizational chart is available at..." can help quite a lot.
2. If the source file is Adobe InDesign, you can build the chart with InDesign's tools which allow designers to visually decorate the text to look like boxes/frames while keeping them live text. Keep it all threaded into a logical reading order, and tag the text as headings and/or lists as needed. In the exported PDF, there's no graphic so there's no need for Alt Text because the text content is all there in the live text.
âBevi
â â â
Bevi Chagnon | Designer, Accessibility Technician | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
â â â
PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing
consulting ⢠training ⢠development ⢠design ⢠sec. 508 services
Upcoming classes at www.PubCom.com/classes
â â â
Latest blog-newsletter â Rethinking Alt Text www.pubcom.com/blog/alt-text/1_rethink-alt-text/index.shtml
-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Suzanne Arden via WebAIM-Forum
Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2023 8:47 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >; Hayman, Douglass < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Cc: Suzanne Arden < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] [EXTERNAL] - Alt text for PDF org chart
Thanks to everyone who responded so quickly to my question. I have a follow-up for Dough: Just to clarify, would I create a list group within the <figure> tag, underneath the "Image" tag, that would have each position as its own list item? That would not change the pdf visual, but would the screen reader read it since it's a group of tags? I would simiply alt tag the jpg in the pdf as "Org chart for ...[company]" since the list grouping would give the greater detail. Does that make sense?
Suzanne Arden
c: 202-669-8228
On Tuesday, November 14, 2023 at 10:57:39 AM EST, Hayman, Douglass < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
Suzanne,
Without seeing the chart in question it is difficult to come up with THE answer. But I think that some PDFs I've seen done in a creative and accessible manner, will have the various elements as perhaps list items, headings and so on. While the chart may remain the same visually, the screen reader user can navigate the components in another way. I've also seen where the ALT text will provide the equivalent information provided in a bar graph or pie chart while other PDFs will have those various components as list items.
Doug Hayman
IT Accessibility Coordinator
Information Technology
Olympic College
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
(360) 475-7632
-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Suzanne Arden via WebAIM-Forum
Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2023 7:46 AM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Cc: Suzanne Arden < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: [EXTERNAL] - [WebAIM] Alt text for PDF org chart
CAUTION: This email came from a non-OC system or external source. Beware of phishing and social engineering!
What is the best way to describe a lengthy org chart in a PDF document?
Suzanne Arden
c: 202-669-8228
From: Karen McCall
Date: Wed, Nov 15 2023 6:01AM
Subject: Re: - Alt text for PDF org chart
← Previous message | No next message
I also use the technique of attaching an accessible Word document to the PDF so that someone who is reading the PDF offline can access the "alternate format" of the organizational chart.
As a screen reader user, I hate having to chase more information down all over the web for complex graphics. ð
Cheers, Karen
-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2023 3:41 PM
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] [EXTERNAL] - Alt text for PDF org chart
Because Alt Text is an attribute on a tag (usually the <Figure> tag), it can't have any semantics (such as headings and lists). Alt Text is just a blah blah blah run-on of word soup without much to distinguish the text for those using screen readers.
Plus, per the PDF/UA standard, <Figure> tags can't have lists and tables nested inside the <Figure> tag itself. Practically, I don't know of any assistive technology that can access the <Caption> tag when it's nested inside <Figure> even though that's legal per PDF/UA.
So putting Alt Text on an organizational chart graphic will always be less than ideal for the end user. In most cases, it's barely readable and understandable.
Some options we've developed for our clients are:
1. Use a live-text list that's available to all users. Some options:
â A list in a <Caption> after the chart graphic.
â Hyperlinked to a list in an appendix added to the PDF, or to a webpage on a website. Wording like "An accessible version of this organizational chart is available at..." can help quite a lot.
2. If the source file is Adobe InDesign, you can build the chart with InDesign's tools which allow designers to visually decorate the text to look like boxes/frames while keeping them live text. Keep it all threaded into a logical reading order, and tag the text as headings and/or lists as needed. In the exported PDF, there's no graphic so there's no need for Alt Text because the text content is all there in the live text.
âBevi
â â â
Bevi Chagnon | Designer, Accessibility Technician | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = â â â
PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing consulting ⢠training ⢠development ⢠design ⢠sec. 508 services Upcoming classes at http://www.pubcom.com/classes
â â â
Latest blog-newsletter â Rethinking Alt Text http://www.pubcom.com/blog/alt-text/1_rethink-alt-text/index.shtml
-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Suzanne Arden via WebAIM-Forum
Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2023 8:47 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >; Hayman, Douglass < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Cc: Suzanne Arden < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] [EXTERNAL] - Alt text for PDF org chart
Thanks to everyone who responded so quickly to my question. I have a follow-up for Dough: Just to clarify, would I create a list group within the <figure> tag, underneath the "Image" tag, that would have each position as its own list item? That would not change the pdf visual, but would the screen reader read it since it's a group of tags? I would simiply alt tag the jpg in the pdf as "Org chart for ...[company]" since the list grouping would give the greater detail. Does that make sense?
Suzanne Arden
c: 202-669-8228
On Tuesday, November 14, 2023 at 10:57:39 AM EST, Hayman, Douglass < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
Suzanne,
Without seeing the chart in question it is difficult to come up with THE answer. But I think that some PDFs I've seen done in a creative and accessible manner, will have the various elements as perhaps list items, headings and so on. While the chart may remain the same visually, the screen reader user can navigate the components in another way. I've also seen where the ALT text will provide the equivalent information provided in a bar graph or pie chart while other PDFs will have those various components as list items.
Doug Hayman
IT Accessibility Coordinator
Information Technology
Olympic College
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
(360) 475-7632
-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Suzanne Arden via WebAIM-Forum
Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2023 7:46 AM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Cc: Suzanne Arden < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: [EXTERNAL] - [WebAIM] Alt text for PDF org chart
CAUTION: This email came from a non-OC system or external source. Beware of phishing and social engineering!
What is the best way to describe a lengthy org chart in a PDF document?
Suzanne Arden
c: 202-669-8228