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Thread: Site Check

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From: Ben Morrison
Date: Thu, Sep 04 2003 5:23AM
Subject: Site Check
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Almost finished the re-design of our new website.

http://www.pup-e.co.uk/sitecheck

It was hard to convince everyone here to move away from our current flash
website and adopt a more standards based approach.

This is my first attempt at a css-based website, I know its not the best use
of css but ive learnt a great deal in building it.

Semantically it could be improved upon but there is always a steep learning
curve to begin with, next time...

I've tried to implement accessibility as much as possible.

It almost works in NN4.

All feedback much appreciated (criticisms/pointers/help/like/dislike).

Ben

PS (apols to any cross listees)

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From: Paul Bohman
Date: Thu, Sep 04 2003 10:35AM
Subject: RE: Site Check
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Ben Morrison wrote:

Almost finished the re-design of our new website.
http://www.pup-e.co.uk/sitecheck All feedback much appreciated.

My response:

Congratulations on your first foray into CSS layout. The hardest part is to
make the jump. Now that you've done it, it's just a matter of fine tuning
things.

I opened the site in the Opera browser (www.opera.com) and turned
stylesheets off by going into "user mode". One thing that I noticed is that
there could be some improvements in the way that the content linearizes
(i.e. the reading order of the content when all styles and tables are turned
off).

The "skip navigation" link is the fourth or fifth item on the page. I would
expect--and want--it to be the first thing. Also, you duplicated the "skip
navigation" link near the bottom of the page. I wouldn't expect one there at
all. In fact, you've duplicated the whole navigation menu. This is probably
unnecessary, but it's not the worst thing you could do, I suppose. I would
definitely get rid of the second "skip navigation" link though, especially
since it jumps you backward up to the content that occurred earlier. It
isn't a logical way to proceed through the content.

I did notice that your map on the "get in touch" page was missing alt text,
but this looks like an oversight, since you've paid attention to alt text
throughout the site (it happens to the best of us).

Overall, I'm glad to hear that someone is not only moving away from
Flash-centrism, but toward all-out CSS layout. Smart move.

Paul Bohman
Technology Coordinator
WebAIM (Web Accessibility in Mind)
www.webaim.org
Center for Persons with Disabilities
www.cpd.usu.edu
Utah State University
www.usu.edu

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From: Ben Morrison
Date: Fri, Sep 05 2003 3:10AM
Subject: Re: Site Check
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On 4/9/03 5:30 pm, "Paul Bohman" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Ben Morrison wrote:
>
> Almost finished the re-design of our new website.
> http://www.pup-e.co.uk/sitecheck All feedback much appreciated.
>
> My response:
>
> Congratulations on your first foray into CSS layout. The hardest part is to
> make the jump. Now that you've done it, it's just a matter of fine tuning
> things.
>
> I opened the site in the Opera browser (www.opera.com) and turned
> stylesheets off by going into "user mode". One thing that I noticed is that
> there could be some improvements in the way that the content linearizes
> (i.e. the reading order of the content when all styles and tables are turned
> off).
>

I've had problems trying to re-order elements, ill keep trying.

> The "skip navigation" link is the fourth or fifth item on the page. I would
> expect--and want--it to be the first thing. Also, you duplicated the "skip
> navigation" link near the bottom of the page. I wouldn't expect one there at
> all. In fact, you've duplicated the whole navigation menu. This is probably
> unnecessary, but it's not the worst thing you could do, I suppose. I would
> definitely get rid of the second "skip navigation" link though, especially
> since it jumps you backward up to the content that occurred earlier. It
> isn't a logical way to proceed through the content.
>

Its an included menu, ill move the skip nav out of the include file and
place it at top of page.

> I did notice that your map on the "get in touch" page was missing alt text,
> but this looks like an oversight, since you've paid attention to alt text
> throughout the site (it happens to the best of us).
>
Should there be alt text for a map, we have the address their. OR would you
explain which roads its adjacent to etc.

> Overall, I'm glad to hear that someone is not only moving away from
> Flash-centrism, but toward all-out CSS layout. Smart move.
>
>

Yes its been a steep curve from actionscript to css, but a good move.

Thanks for your input.

Ben

--
Ben Morrison * Web Developer * www.dogstardesign.co.uk

DogStar * 39 Doughty St London WC1N 2LF

t: 020 7430 7718 * e: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

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From: Holly Marie
Date: Fri, Sep 05 2003 5:36AM
Subject: Re: Site Check
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From: "Ben Morrison"

> On 4/9/03 5:30 pm, "Paul Bohman" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> > Ben Morrison wrote:
> >
> > Almost finished the re-design of our new website.
> > http://www.pup-e.co.uk/sitecheck All feedback much appreciated.
> >
> > My response:
> >
> > Congratulations on your first foray into CSS layout. The hardest
part is to
> > make the jump. Now that you've done it, it's just a matter of fine
tuning
> > things.
> >
> > I opened the site in the Opera browser (www.opera.com) and turned
> > stylesheets off by going into "user mode". One thing that I noticed
is that
> > there could be some improvements in the way that the content
linearizes
> > (i.e. the reading order of the content when all styles and tables
are turned
> > off).
> >
>
> I've had problems trying to re-order elements, ill keep trying.

A nice advantage that CSS has over table layout for pages is the ability
to rearrange content for better readability[or linearize the delivery in
optimal ways.] Tables are more or less fixed sequentially by the row by
row, left to right delivery mode.

Have you seen this web page on ordering columns or items on a page?
I thought it was an interesting set of online tools... plug in the way
you want the page to display and it renders the CSS for the layout. I
have not personally checked this tool's CSS output, but it might be
handy or worth a try. There are notes on each tool one is fixed the
other is float.
http://www.fu2k.org/alex/css/layouts/3Col_NN4_FMFM.mhtml
http://www.fu2k.org/alex/css/layouts/3Col_OrderedAbsolute.mhtml

Other 3 column type layouts are linked at:
http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=ThreeColumnLayouts

> > I did notice that your map on the "get in touch" page was missing
alt text,
> > but this looks like an oversight, since you've paid attention to alt
text
> > throughout the site (it happens to the best of us).
> >
> Should there be alt text for a map, we have the address their. OR
would you
> explain which roads its adjacent to etc.

Explaining maps in detail could be difficult.

SVG, when supported, may help various users with maps. Low vision users
will be able to zoom or enlarge maps without loss in image quality,
because these are vector graphics. Text and map features on bmp type
images(jpg,jpeg, etc..)will blur when enlarged, and may become unusable
at needed levels of enlargement. Text can actually be embedded in the
SVG graphic and delivered as text content.

Yes you need to provide an Alt and value for that image. For the user
who cannot see it... they know there is a map, and maybe they would like
to print it up for someone who may take them to the destination, or make
others aware of the map on that page?

alt="map showing Location of ... "
alt="map of .... area"

holly
good work and it is great to see that you made that conversion.

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From: jeb
Date: Fri, Sep 05 2003 9:00AM
Subject: v. and v. 
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Earlier in August there was an interesting discussion regarding the "bold"
and "italics" issue. I just re-read the archives and still have questions.

In reading my HTML 4 Bible, it notes that although and have not been
deprecated, CSS is recommended. There is no similar statement for 
and . However, pretty much all browsers render and exactly
the same way (ditto with and ). Someone in the archive noted that
"all browsers" can handle while a number of browsers still have problems
with CSS.

That discussion got into aural style sheets and issues related to how to do
the CSS code. It never answered my concern...

So, my question is simply, what difference does it make - if you use and
? From my reading, it is not deprecated, it doesn't apparently upset any
AT devices, both can have their attributed changed with CSS content.

My reason for asking is that some accessibility validators programs are now
citing the use of and with a "warning" statement. Because there may
be many such "errors" it stops the validation process because some arbitrary
maximum number of errors has been reached.

I use FrontPage 2002 as my authoring package and understand that there are a
number of things I have to do to make a standard FP file accessible (most of
which I have mastered), but I am not happy with the prospect of having to go
back and change all of my 's to s, just to placate some "silly
interpretation." So is it a "silly interpretation" or a valid concern, and
can someone explain why these distinctions are important?

Many thanks.

jeb

John E. Brandt
Augusta, ME 04330

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www.jebswebs.com <http://www.jebswebs.com>;

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From: Ben Morrison
Date: Fri, Sep 05 2003 9:53AM
Subject: Re: v. and v. 
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On 5/9/03 3:55 pm, "jeb" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Earlier in August there was an interesting discussion regarding the "bold"
> and "italics" issue. I just re-read the archives and still have questions.

There was also a similar discussion on evolt, you can look at the thread
here:

http://lists.evolt.org/archive/Week-of-Mon-20030811/thread.html#146524

Ben
--
Ben Morrison * Web Developer * www.dogstardesign.co.uk

DogStar * 39 Doughty St London WC1N 2LF

t: 020 7430 7718 * e: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

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From: Ben Morrison
Date: Fri, Sep 05 2003 10:11AM
Subject: Re: Site Check
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On 5/9/03 12:33 pm, "Holly Marie" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

>
> A nice advantage that CSS has over table layout for pages is the ability
> to rearrange content for better readability[or linearize the delivery in
> optimal ways.] Tables are more or less fixed sequentially by the row by
> row, left to right delivery mode.
>
Yes that is my next priority. I was having problems with float left as
opposed to floating right to re-order the content.

> Have you seen this web page on ordering columns or items on a page?
> I thought it was an interesting set of online tools... plug in the way
> you want the page to display and it renders the CSS for the layout. I
> have not personally checked this tool's CSS output, but it might be
> handy or worth a try. There are notes on each tool one is fixed the
> other is float.
> http://www.fu2k.org/alex/css/layouts/3Col_NN4_FMFM.mhtml
> http://www.fu2k.org/alex/css/layouts/3Col_OrderedAbsolute.mhtml
>

It seems that they used CSS hacks, which I have avoided - apart from styling
nn4. I need to have any column be as long as needed and keep the footer at
the bottom of all the content.

Taken from:
http://www.pixy.cz/blogg/clanky/css-3col-layout/

Very interesting tool nonetheless.

> Other 3 column type layouts are linked at:
> http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=ThreeColumnLayouts
>
> Explaining maps in detail could be difficult.
>
> SVG, when supported, may help various users with maps. Low vision users
> will be able to zoom or enlarge maps without loss in image quality,
> because these are vector graphics. Text and map features on bmp type
> images(jpg,jpeg, etc..)will blur when enlarged, and may become unusable
> at needed levels of enlargement. Text can actually be embedded in the
> SVG graphic and delivered as text content.
>
SVG has many possibilities, shame about current browser support.

> Yes you need to provide an Alt and value for that image. For the user
> who cannot see it... they know there is a map, and maybe they would like
> to print it up for someone who may take them to the destination, or make
> others aware of the map on that page?
>
> alt="map showing Location of ... "
> alt="map of .... area"
>
That makes a lot of sense, its more about the way you approach what the end
user would like to do with the contents, rather than well they dont need to
see the map.

>
> holly
> good work and it is great to see that you made that conversion.
>

Thankyou, its been a struggle, but then again so was html to begin with.
Ben

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From: Cheryl D. Wise
Date: Fri, Sep 05 2003 8:49PM
Subject: RE: Site Check
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You might want to take a look at the source ordered column layout at
http://positioniseverything.net if that one doesn't suit maybe one of the
other column layouts he has will work.

Cheryl D. Wise
Microsoft MVP
WiserWays, LLC
713 353-0139
www.wiserways.com
mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

From: Holly Marie
Date: Sat, Sep 06 2003 1:05AM
Subject: Re: Site Check
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From: "Cheryl D. Wise"

> You might want to take a look at the source ordered column layout at
> http://positioniseverything.net if that one doesn't suit maybe one of
the
> other column layouts he has will work.

I agree, this is another of those interesting CSS sites, and there are
several different items, though as he notes there are buggy behaviors
or outcomes with some.

I keep meaning to check which layout of his or on his site causes IE to
get very buggy. Actually the OS gets buggy when loading the page. It is
only one particular one, that I noticed. And it only happens when it is
loaded in IE and not in Moz or other browsers, I believe. It has
happened each time I loaded that particular CSS example. I checked the
source or CSS I thought, but not completely, and I was going to write
him, but something happened and I had to leave the desk. It was bad
enough that using WIN 2k, CTRL ALT DEL to force quit the IE browser was
not possible. What happened? The CSS on the page, and I did not see any
javascript involved, seized control of the mouse in such a way that one
could not move the mouse cursor anywhere by will or the functionality of
the mouse and its movement were shot. The cursor would move to odd
areas, the memory on the system would be used to the max[page caused a
memory link type situation], and changing focus onto other windows was
near impossible, because getting control back on the cursor via mouse or
keyboard was very hard. If lucky, focus off that page and onto another
window allowed the ability to force quit the IE instances through CTRL
ALT DEL. It would have been helpful to move the cursor to the [x] to
close the window, which would work if you could get it there. I wanted
to bookmark that page, or write it down and see if others had the same
problem.

[*] when working with positioning and or floats, there are times where
the CSS looks harmless enough and seems accessible by automated tests,
some manual checking etc... but many forget to try a page without a
mouse(in various browsers), or test these pages via a keyboard.

I feel keyboard accessibility may be as important as other access
issues. Think about the challenged user that works with sticky keys, a
mouth or puff stick, or a myriad of other options while working,
learning, or using the web. Navigating a web page or website is key. How
can such a user access content links if they cannot get past the
location bar, or past an area of links. And I am not talking about the
issue or problems with legacy NN and a keyboard with some designs, but I
am talking about other browsers, too... IE versions, newer Moz based
releases, etc... Users in wheel chairs, house bound, quadraplegics, a
variety of users with CP, stroke victims, or other mobility issues, may
use a computer for quite a few reasons from their home, school, or
office and for many reasons.

I found this problem is not limited to CSS layers, but also happens in
cases with some floats, or layouts.
I also found that there are times where CSS makes it very difficult for
a user to copy/paste a selected or desired area of text and may get
stuck copy/pasting a whole page of divs, because isolation or
highlighting of target areas is nearly impossible. [noticed with IE
browsers and some float divs situations]. There are also issues with
javascript and event handlers that include the mouse and need to be
checked or written in such a way that the keyboard works when the mouse
is not available.

Manual checks are important, automated tests or checks may not find
these issues, and testing a page for mouseless accessibility and tab
ability is also very important, in various browsers/versions, with CSS
loaded and not, etc. It is not enough to assume that a user has access
to all browsers and versions, or even IE. They may not use IE for
security purposes or other reasons. They may not have Javascript enabled
for the same reasons. And there are cases in which IE fails when using a
mouse and not.

One recent site with changes, poses some keyboard access problems,
though the site is written to standards, addresses accessibility, and
uses CSS. I found a variety of keyboard navigation issues while trying
to access the http://www.macromedia.com website on various browsers and
versions(I am not sure if this has been changed since last week). Check
behavior or outcomes while trying to tab into the page for a link in the
content, after the top menu area. In some cases one could not tab out of
the top menubar location area into the page at all[the top menubar area
remains a small loop of navigational choices). In other trials the top
menubar area does not seem available at all and in many cases the links
at the top menu area produce the same link location information for all
top menu bar area links in the status bar of the browser[does not change
for the top links]. This is important as users with non mouse navigation
may need to see that status bar to associate which link the keyboard has
focus on, or is set to follow, and even more important when there are no
visible(or barely visible) changes on the page as the focus on links
changes, [highlighting, outlines, etc]. The status bar may be another
useful way of knowing the link target to these users and naming those
link target files well, is helpful [home.html, contact.html, order.html
.. .etc.], being able to see those change correctly is also important.
Tool tips via title/link are not seen for links accessed via keyboard
and not mouse.

holly

> From: Ben Morrison
>
> On 5/9/03 12:33 pm, "Holly Marie" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> >
> > A nice advantage that CSS has over table layout for pages is the
> > ability to rearrange content for better readability or linearize the
> > delivery in optimal ways.] Tables are more or less fixed
sequentially
> > by the row by row, left to right delivery mode.
> >
> Yes that is my next priority. I was having problems with float left as
> opposed to floating right to re-order the content.
>
>
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> visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>
>

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From: Holly Marie
Date: Sat, Sep 06 2003 1:33AM
Subject: Re: Site Check
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From: "Holly Marie"
The problem with this page was not in IE, but it was with Win 2K using
Firebird[0.6.1]. I will write John at PIE website or the CSS list and
see if others have this same issue. :)

The page if open more than about 100 pixels or almost a full sized
screen view [between 700px or wider] gets the bug. Very narrow pages do
not seem to have the problem. But getting focus off the window, or
closing the page via normal means is not possible or very hard[as the
mouse on the system does not seem to behave].

Since this is a very unusual bug, and only present in Firebird as I can
tell, it may not be a huge issue to a large amount of users. Though it
seems to be a good idea to check mouse and key functionality on pages
with various browsers.

> I keep meaning to check which layout of his or on his site causes IE
to
> get very buggy. Actually the OS gets buggy when loading the page. It
is
> only one particular one, that I noticed. And it only happens when it
is
> loaded in IE and not in Moz or other browsers, I believe. It has
> happened each time I loaded that particular CSS example. I checked
the
> source or CSS I thought, but not completely, and I was going to write
> him, but something happened and I had to leave the desk. It was bad
> enough that using WIN 2k, CTRL ALT DEL to force quit the IE browser
was
> not possible. What happened? The CSS on the page, and I did not see
any
> javascript involved, seized control of the mouse in such a way that
one
> could not move the mouse cursor anywhere by will or the functionality
of
> the mouse and its movement were shot. The cursor would move to odd
> areas, the memory on the system would be used to the max[page caused a
> memory link type situation], and changing focus onto other windows was
> near impossible, because getting control back on the cursor via mouse
or
> keyboard was very hard. If lucky, focus off that page and onto another
> window allowed the ability to force quit the IE instances through CTRL
> ALT DEL. It would have been helpful to move the cursor to the [x] to
> close the window, which would work if you could get it there. I wanted
> to bookmark that page, or write it down and see if others had the same
> problem.

Again this behavior was not in IE, but in Firebird[v 0.1.6]. I did not
try it in NN6, 7, or Mozilla, yet.
buggy page link: http://www.positioniseverything.net/threecolbglong.html

holly

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From: Mary Martinson
Date: Wed, Sep 10 2003 10:00AM
Subject: Finding WCAG approved sites
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I would like to be able to find pages that are WCAG compliant. Does anyone
know if there is a way to search for all pages containing the WCAG
compliance logo?
Thanks,
Mary

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From: gez
Date: Wed, Sep 10 2003 10:13AM
Subject: Re: Finding WCAG approved sites
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Hi Mary,

There may be a better way of doing it, but you could use the alt text used
on the W3C conformance logo. I just had a quick check, entering the
following in google:

WCAG1A-conformance
WCAG1AA-conformance
and
WCAG1AAA-conformance

The first few were from the W3C, but after that, there were a few pages
listed that claim conformance.

Best regards.

Gez

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mary Martinson" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2003 4:53 PM
Subject: Finding WCAG approved sites

> I would like to be able to find pages that are WCAG compliant. Does anyone
> know if there is a way to search for all pages containing the WCAG
> compliance logo?
> Thanks,
> Mary
>
>
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>

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From: John Britsios
Date: Wed, Sep 10 2003 11:57AM
Subject: Re: Finding WCAG approved sites
← Previous message | Next message →

Did you try searching with Google for the image file name, if its a standard
one, in the image search?

This may also work I guess!

John

Webnauts Accessibility and Usability Forum:
http://www.webnauts.net/phpBB2/index.php

.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mary Martinson" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2003 5:53 PM
Subject: Finding WCAG approved sites

> I would like to be able to find pages that are WCAG compliant. Does anyone
> know if there is a way to search for all pages containing the WCAG
> compliance logo?
> Thanks,
> Mary
>
>
> ----
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From: Kimberly Chapman
Date: Wed, Sep 10 2003 12:57PM
Subject: Re: Finding WCAG approved sites
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At 05:10 PM 10/09/03 +0100, gez said:
>There may be a better way of doing it, but you could use the alt text used
>on the W3C conformance logo.

My sites all use the following phrase as the ALT text for that icon: "Level
A conformance icon, W3C-WAI Web Content Accessibility Guidelines
1.0". That's the recommended ALT at http://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG1-Conformance .

I did a search just on "Level A conformance icon" and got a lot more results.

For the other two, the recommended ALTs are:

"Level Double-A conformance icon, W3C-WAI Web Content Accessibility
Guidelines 1.0"

"Level Triple-A conformance icon, W3C-WAI Web Content Accessibility
Guidelines 1.0"

-- Kimberly Chapman
http://kimberlychapman.com/
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From: Jukka K. Korpela
Date: Wed, Sep 10 2003 10:49PM
Subject: Re: Finding WCAG approved sites
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On Wed, 10 Sep 2003, Kimberly Chapman wrote:

> My sites all use the following phrase as the ALT text for that icon: "Level
> A conformance icon, W3C-WAI Web Content Accessibility Guidelines
> 1.0". That's the recommended ALT at http://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG1-Conformance .

It might be what they recommend, but it is still worse than pointless.
Even if your page is _about_ accessibility (a very rare special case),
the icon just distracts from the purpose of the page. And the alt text
is a typical example of _describing_ an image, instead of acting as a
_substitute_. If they had starting from asking "what would be put here if
images did not exist?", they would never have invented such a text.
What the image tries to say is very unclear. It could be "This page claims
compliance to Web Content Accessibility Guidelines version 1.0 as defined
by the World Wide Web Consortium."

I have yet to see a Web page that actually conforms to WCAG 1.0.
What people _really_ say when they slap the icon over the face of their
visitors is that they have used some automatic checker. But none of the
checkers comes even close to actually checking conformance, see
http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/www/acctools.html

Regarding the original question, the very search for pages with the
accessibility icon is counter-productive, if the purpose is to make your
own pages more accessible. It's hardly useful even if your real purpose is
to pass the automatic checks so that you could think that you are entitled
into carrying the holy icon. What a page author needs to do that purpose
surely depends on the page content and purpose and especially on the
current version of the page (if existent) or the plans for the page.

--
Jukka "Yucca" Korpela, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/

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From: Mary Martinson
Date: Thu, Sep 11 2003 9:01AM
Subject: RE: Finding WCAG approved sites
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Yes, I agree with all you said. The *only* purpose of my search for these
sites, as I mentioned earlier, is to point designers to examples of
accessible sites, some of which (we hope) are well-designed. These sites
could be used to promote the idea that accessible sites don't need to be
visually boring (a complaint I often hear). It is easy to show people
inaccessible sites, not so easy to show well-designed sites that are
accessible.

From all the discussion, I see that pointing designers to sites with the
WCAG icon is probably not the way to go. I know there are "good" examples in
some of the accessibility books, but was hoping to have an online list. Any
ideas would be appreciated.
Mary