E-mail List Archives
Thread: vertical side menus
Number of posts in this thread: 7 (In chronological order)
From: Stephanie Warenski
Date: Fri, Mar 12 2004 9:32AM
Subject: vertical side menus
No previous message | Next message →
Hi everybody,
I actually have a general question this time. When I was
testing my work in Bobby, I was reminded that adjacent links
need to be separated by more than white space. So, in a
vertical side menu, paragraph breaks aren't enough. My work
around was a table with a zero pixel border. What other work
arounds have been used?
Thank you everybody.
Stephanie Warenski
----
To subscribe, unsubscribe, suspend, or view list archives,
visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
From: Richard Sweet
Date: Fri, Mar 12 2004 12:00PM
Subject: RE: vertical side menus
← Previous message | Next message →
A menu is (normally) a list. If you make your menu an <ul> and give each
item a <li> tag they become distinct. You can then use the css
"list-style-type: none" property if you don't actually want a bullet to
appear visually.
This also works for a horizontal menu bar, or lists of links where you don't
want them on separate lines. Simply use the "display: inline" css property.
Using <UL> and css actually allows you to create quite complex menus with
subheadings etc by nesting the lists and giving them class or id attributes
and works well (in my experience) from an accessibility point of view. Even
if stylesheets are changed by the user or not supported it still appears as
a straightforward list.
Hope this helps.
Richard
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stephanie Warenski [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
> Sent: 12 March 2004 16:23
> To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Subject: vertical side menus
>
>
> Hi everybody,
>
> I actually have a general question this time. When I was
> testing my work in Bobby, I was reminded that adjacent links
> need to be separated by more than white space. So, in a
> vertical side menu, paragraph breaks aren't enough. My work
> around was a table with a zero pixel border. What other work
> arounds have been used?
>
> Thank you everybody.
>
> Stephanie Warenski
>
>
> ----
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, suspend, or view list archives,
> visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stephanie Warenski [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
> Sent: 12 March 2004 16:23
> To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Subject: vertical side menus
>
>
> Hi everybody,
>
> I actually have a general question this time. When I was
> testing my work in Bobby, I was reminded that adjacent links
> need to be separated by more than white space. So, in a
> vertical side menu, paragraph breaks aren't enough. My work
> around was a table with a zero pixel border. What other work
> arounds have been used?
>
> Thank you everybody.
>
> Stephanie Warenski
>
>
> ----
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, suspend, or view list archives,
> visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>
>
----
To subscribe, unsubscribe, suspend, or view list archives,
visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
From: Sverre Andreas Holbye
Date: Sat, Mar 13 2004 8:48AM
Subject: SV: vertical side menus
← Previous message | Next message →
Hi listers,
I've had this problem for a long time but not in my menus since I've
solved this with the list tags as described by Richard Sweet. My problem
now is that when writing articles, news posts and so on I often link to
mentioned resources. For instance I could write "BBC, CBS and CNN did
bla bla bla..." Where I would link to the actual BBC and CBS page and
consequently get a Bobby (WAI) error. So far I've solved this problem
with not using links in the text at all and have a list of resources
mentioned in the actual post at the end of the post. This may be a good
solution or it may not. Does anyone have any comments on my solution
with regards to accessibility and usability? Is this a bad practise, if
so, how could I do this better? How is it possible in a text to have
adjacent links that not impose a problem for screen reader users?
Med vennlig hilsen / Kind regards
Andreas Holbye
IT-Konsulent / ICT-consultant for the blind and visually impaired
-----Opprinnelig melding-----
Fra: Richard Sweet [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sendt: 12. mars 2004 19:53
Til: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Emne: RE: vertical side menus
A menu is (normally) a list. If you make your menu an <ul> and give each
item a <li> tag they become distinct. You can then use the css
"list-style-type: none" property if you don't actually want a bullet to
appear visually.
This also works for a horizontal menu bar, or lists of links where you
don't
want them on separate lines. Simply use the "display: inline" css
property.
Using <UL> and css actually allows you to create quite complex menus
with
subheadings etc by nesting the lists and giving them class or id
attributes
and works well (in my experience) from an accessibility point of view.
Even
if stylesheets are changed by the user or not supported it still appears
as
a straightforward list.
Hope this helps.
Richard
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stephanie Warenski [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
> Sent: 12 March 2004 16:23
> To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Subject: vertical side menus
>
>
> Hi everybody,
>
> I actually have a general question this time. When I was
> testing my work in Bobby, I was reminded that adjacent links
> need to be separated by more than white space. So, in a
> vertical side menu, paragraph breaks aren't enough. My work
> around was a table with a zero pixel border. What other work
> arounds have been used?
>
> Thank you everybody.
>
> Stephanie Warenski
>
>
> ----
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, suspend, or view list archives,
> visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stephanie Warenski [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
> Sent: 12 March 2004 16:23
> To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Subject: vertical side menus
>
>
> Hi everybody,
>
> I actually have a general question this time. When I was
> testing my work in Bobby, I was reminded that adjacent links
> need to be separated by more than white space. So, in a
> vertical side menu, paragraph breaks aren't enough. My work
> around was a table with a zero pixel border. What other work
> arounds have been used?
>
> Thank you everybody.
>
> Stephanie Warenski
>
>
> ----
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, suspend, or view list archives,
> visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>
>
----
To subscribe, unsubscribe, suspend, or view list archives,
visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
----
To subscribe, unsubscribe, suspend, or view list archives,
visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
From: gez
Date: Sat, Mar 13 2004 12:33PM
Subject: Re: vertical side menus
← Previous message | Next message →
> How is it possible in a text to
> have adjacent links that not
> impose a problem for screen reader
> users?
You could use the separator from the grammar to act as a separator for the
links:
<a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk">BBC</a>, <a
href="http://www.cnn.com">CNN</a>, etc.
> So far I've solved this problem
> with not using links in the text
> at all and have a list of resources
> mentioned in the actual post at the
> end of the post. This may be a good
> solution or it may not. Does anyone
> have any comments on my solution
> with regards to accessibility and
> usability?
It's a matter of personal preference and style. Personally, I like all the
links to be collected at the end of the article, so I can read the article
uninterrupted. Others visitors may prefer to follow the links as and when
they get to them in the text.
Best regards.
Gez
_____________________________
Supplement your vitamins
Web: http://www.juicystudio.com
Email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Keeping developers informed!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sverre Andreas Holbye" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2004 3:39 PM
Subject: SV: vertical side menus
> Hi listers,
>
> I've had this problem for a long time but not in my menus since I've
> solved this with the list tags as described by Richard Sweet. My problem
> now is that when writing articles, news posts and so on I often link to
> mentioned resources. For instance I could write "BBC, CBS and CNN did
> bla bla bla..." Where I would link to the actual BBC and CBS page and
> consequently get a Bobby (WAI) error. So far I've solved this problem
> with not using links in the text at all and have a list of resources
> mentioned in the actual post at the end of the post. This may be a good
> solution or it may not. Does anyone have any comments on my solution
> with regards to accessibility and usability? Is this a bad practise, if
> so, how could I do this better? How is it possible in a text to have
> adjacent links that not impose a problem for screen reader users?
>
>
> Med vennlig hilsen / Kind regards
>
> Andreas Holbye
> IT-Konsulent / ICT-consultant for the blind and visually impaired
>
>
> -----Opprinnelig melding-----
> Fra: Richard Sweet [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
> Sendt: 12. mars 2004 19:53
> Til: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Emne: RE: vertical side menus
>
> A menu is (normally) a list. If you make your menu an <ul> and give each
> item a <li> tag they become distinct. You can then use the css
> "list-style-type: none" property if you don't actually want a bullet to
> appear visually.
>
> This also works for a horizontal menu bar, or lists of links where you
> don't
> want them on separate lines. Simply use the "display: inline" css
> property.
>
> Using <UL> and css actually allows you to create quite complex menus
> with
> subheadings etc by nesting the lists and giving them class or id
> attributes
> and works well (in my experience) from an accessibility point of view.
> Even
> if stylesheets are changed by the user or not supported it still appears
> as
> a straightforward list.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Richard
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Stephanie Warenski [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
> > Sent: 12 March 2004 16:23
> > To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > Subject: vertical side menus
> >
> >
> > Hi everybody,
> >
> > I actually have a general question this time. When I was
> > testing my work in Bobby, I was reminded that adjacent links
> > need to be separated by more than white space. So, in a
> > vertical side menu, paragraph breaks aren't enough. My work
> > around was a table with a zero pixel border. What other work
> > arounds have been used?
> >
> > Thank you everybody.
> >
> > Stephanie Warenski
> >
> >
> > ----
> > To subscribe, unsubscribe, suspend, or view list archives,
> > visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
> >
> >
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Stephanie Warenski [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
> > Sent: 12 March 2004 16:23
> > To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > Subject: vertical side menus
> >
> >
> > Hi everybody,
> >
> > I actually have a general question this time. When I was
> > testing my work in Bobby, I was reminded that adjacent links
> > need to be separated by more than white space. So, in a
> > vertical side menu, paragraph breaks aren't enough. My work
> > around was a table with a zero pixel border. What other work
> > arounds have been used?
> >
> > Thank you everybody.
> >
> > Stephanie Warenski
> >
> >
> > ----
> > To subscribe, unsubscribe, suspend, or view list archives,
> > visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ----
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, suspend, or view list archives,
> visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>
>
>
> ----
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, suspend, or view list archives,
> visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>
>
>
----
To subscribe, unsubscribe, suspend, or view list archives,
visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
From: Linda.Wells@aeroint.com
Date: Mon, Mar 15 2004 12:59AM
Subject: RE: vertical side menus
← Previous message | Next message →
Richard,
Could you provide a link to an example of a complex menu done in the way you
describe?
Linda
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Richard Sweet [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
> Sent: 12 March 2004 18:53
> To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Subject: RE: vertical side menus
>
>
> A menu is (normally) a list. If you make your menu an <ul>
> and give each
> item a <li> tag they become distinct. You can then use the css
> "list-style-type: none" property if you don't actually want a
> bullet to
> appear visually.
>
> This also works for a horizontal menu bar, or lists of links
> where you don't
> want them on separate lines. Simply use the "display: inline"
> css property.
>
> Using <UL> and css actually allows you to create quite
> complex menus with
> subheadings etc by nesting the lists and giving them class or
> id attributes
> and works well (in my experience) from an accessibility point
> of view. Even
> if stylesheets are changed by the user or not supported it
> still appears as
> a straightforward list.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Richard
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Stephanie Warenski [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
> > Sent: 12 March 2004 16:23
> > To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > Subject: vertical side menus
> >
> >
> > Hi everybody,
> >
> > I actually have a general question this time. When I was
> > testing my work in Bobby, I was reminded that adjacent links
> > need to be separated by more than white space. So, in a
> > vertical side menu, paragraph breaks aren't enough. My work
> > around was a table with a zero pixel border. What other work
> > arounds have been used?
> >
> > Thank you everybody.
> >
> > Stephanie Warenski
> >
> >
> > ----
> > To subscribe, unsubscribe, suspend, or view list archives,
> > visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
> >
> >
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Stephanie Warenski [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
> > Sent: 12 March 2004 16:23
> > To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > Subject: vertical side menus
> >
> >
> > Hi everybody,
> >
> > I actually have a general question this time. When I was
> > testing my work in Bobby, I was reminded that adjacent links
> > need to be separated by more than white space. So, in a
> > vertical side menu, paragraph breaks aren't enough. My work
> > around was a table with a zero pixel border. What other work
> > arounds have been used?
> >
> > Thank you everybody.
> >
> > Stephanie Warenski
> >
> >
> > ----
> > To subscribe, unsubscribe, suspend, or view list archives,
> > visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ----
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, suspend, or view list archives,
> visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>
************************************************************************
This Internet E-mail is intended solely for the person to whom it is addressed. It may contain confidential or privileged information. If you have received it in error please notify us immediately by telephone and destroy the transmission. You must not copy, distribute or take any action in reliance on it.
Aerosystems International Phone: +44 (0)1935 443000
Fax : +44 (0)1935 443111
Web : www.aeroint.com
************************************************************************
----
To subscribe, unsubscribe, suspend, or view list archives,
visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
From: Richard Sweet
Date: Mon, Mar 15 2004 2:21AM
Subject: RE: vertical side menus
← Previous message | Next message →
Have a look at
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/russell.baldwin/csstest/menu1.html
(and other pages on that site).
I think the problems with different browsers come from the method of
positioning, rather than the list idea itself. There are some minor problems
with the css display on some browsers, but nothing that's the end of the
world. If you were doing something simpler those problems wouldn't arise
anyway. Most importantly, it works fine with screenreaders, no mouse etc.
(I have no association with this site!)
Richard
> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
> Sent: 15 March 2004 07:53
> To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Subject: RE: vertical side menus
>
>
> Richard,
> Could you provide a link to an example of a complex menu done
> in the way you describe?
>
> Linda
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Richard Sweet [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
> > Sent: 12 March 2004 18:53
> > To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > Subject: RE: vertical side menus
> >
> >
> > A menu is (normally) a list. If you make your menu an <ul> and give
> > each item a <li> tag they become distinct. You can then use the css
> > "list-style-type: none" property if you don't actually want a
> > bullet to
> > appear visually.
> >
> > This also works for a horizontal menu bar, or lists of links where
> > you don't want them on separate lines. Simply use the "display:
> > inline" css property.
> >
> > Using <UL> and css actually allows you to create quite complex menus
> > with subheadings etc by nesting the lists and giving them class or
> > id attributes
> > and works well (in my experience) from an accessibility point
> > of view. Even
> > if stylesheets are changed by the user or not supported it
> > still appears as
> > a straightforward list.
> >
> > Hope this helps.
> >
> > Richard
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Stephanie Warenski [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
> > > Sent: 12 March 2004 16:23
> > > To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > > Subject: vertical side menus
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi everybody,
> > >
> > > I actually have a general question this time. When I was
> testing my
> > > work in Bobby, I was reminded that adjacent links need to be
> > > separated by more than white space. So, in a vertical side menu,
> > > paragraph breaks aren't enough. My work around was a
> table with a
> > > zero pixel border. What other work arounds have been used?
> > >
> > > Thank you everybody.
> > >
> > > Stephanie Warenski
> > >
> > >
> > > ----
> > > To subscribe, unsubscribe, suspend, or view list archives, visit
> > > http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
> > >
> > >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Stephanie Warenski [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
> > > Sent: 12 March 2004 16:23
> > > To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > > Subject: vertical side menus
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi everybody,
> > >
> > > I actually have a general question this time. When I was testing
> > > my work in Bobby, I was reminded that adjacent links need to be
> > > separated by more than white space. So, in a vertical side menu,
> > > paragraph breaks aren't enough. My work around was a table with a
> > > zero pixel border. What other work arounds have been used?
> > >
> > > Thank you everybody.
> > >
> > > Stephanie Warenski
> > >
> > >
> > > ----
> > > To subscribe, unsubscribe, suspend, or view list archives, visit
> > > http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----
> > To subscribe, unsubscribe, suspend, or view list archives, visit
> > http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
> >
>
> **************************************************************
> **********
> This Internet E-mail is intended solely for the person to
> whom it is addressed. It may contain confidential or
> privileged information. If you have received it in error
> please notify us immediately by telephone and destroy the
> transmission. You must not copy, distribute or take any
> action in reliance on it.
>
> Aerosystems International Phone: +44 (0)1935 443000
> Fax : +44 (0)1935 443111
> Web : www.aeroint.com
> **************************************************************
> **********
>
>
> ----
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, suspend, or view list archives,
> visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>
>
----
To subscribe, unsubscribe, suspend, or view list archives,
visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
From: Linda.Wells@aeroint.com
Date: Mon, Mar 15 2004 2:31AM
Subject: RE: vertical side menus
← Previous message | No next message
Richard,
That is very helpful, it is just what I wanted but I had no idea how to do
it.
thanks
Linda
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Richard Sweet [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
> Sent: 15 March 2004 09:14
> To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Subject: RE: vertical side menus
>
>
> Have a look at
>
> http://homepage.ntlworld.com/russell.baldwin/csstest/menu1.html
>
> (and other pages on that site).
>
> I think the problems with different browsers come from the method of
> positioning, rather than the list idea itself. There are some
> minor problems
> with the css display on some browsers, but nothing that's the
> end of the
> world. If you were doing something simpler those problems
> wouldn't arise
> anyway. Most importantly, it works fine with screenreaders,
> no mouse etc.
>
> (I have no association with this site!)
>
> Richard
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
> > Sent: 15 March 2004 07:53
> > To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > Subject: RE: vertical side menus
> >
> >
> > Richard,
> > Could you provide a link to an example of a complex menu done
> > in the way you describe?
> >
> > Linda
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Richard Sweet [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
> > > Sent: 12 March 2004 18:53
> > > To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > > Subject: RE: vertical side menus
> > >
> > >
> > > A menu is (normally) a list. If you make your menu an
> <ul> and give
> > > each item a <li> tag they become distinct. You can then
> use the css
> > > "list-style-type: none" property if you don't actually want a
> > > bullet to
> > > appear visually.
> > >
> > > This also works for a horizontal menu bar, or lists of
> links where
> > > you don't want them on separate lines. Simply use the "display:
> > > inline" css property.
> > >
> > > Using <UL> and css actually allows you to create quite
> complex menus
> > > with subheadings etc by nesting the lists and giving them class or
> > > id attributes
> > > and works well (in my experience) from an accessibility point
> > > of view. Even
> > > if stylesheets are changed by the user or not supported it
> > > still appears as
> > > a straightforward list.
> > >
> > > Hope this helps.
> > >
> > > Richard
> > >
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Stephanie Warenski [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
> > > > Sent: 12 March 2004 16:23
> > > > To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > > > Subject: vertical side menus
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi everybody,
> > > >
> > > > I actually have a general question this time. When I was
> > testing my
> > > > work in Bobby, I was reminded that adjacent links need to be
> > > > separated by more than white space. So, in a vertical
> side menu,
> > > > paragraph breaks aren't enough. My work around was a
> > table with a
> > > > zero pixel border. What other work arounds have been used?
> > > >
> > > > Thank you everybody.
> > > >
> > > > Stephanie Warenski
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----
> > > > To subscribe, unsubscribe, suspend, or view list archives, visit
> > > > http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Stephanie Warenski [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
> > > > Sent: 12 March 2004 16:23
> > > > To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > > > Subject: vertical side menus
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi everybody,
> > > >
> > > > I actually have a general question this time. When I
> was testing
> > > > my work in Bobby, I was reminded that adjacent links need to be
> > > > separated by more than white space. So, in a vertical
> side menu,
> > > > paragraph breaks aren't enough. My work around was a
> table with a
> > > > zero pixel border. What other work arounds have been used?
> > > >
> > > > Thank you everybody.
> > > >
> > > > Stephanie Warenski
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----
> > > > To subscribe, unsubscribe, suspend, or view list
> archives, visit
> > > > http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----
> > > To subscribe, unsubscribe, suspend, or view list archives, visit
> > > http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
> > >
> >
> > **************************************************************
> > **********
> > This Internet E-mail is intended solely for the person to
> > whom it is addressed. It may contain confidential or
> > privileged information. If you have received it in error
> > please notify us immediately by telephone and destroy the
> > transmission. You must not copy, distribute or take any
> > action in reliance on it.
> >
> > Aerosystems International Phone: +44 (0)1935 443000
> > Fax : +44 (0)1935 443111
> > Web : www.aeroint.com
> > **************************************************************
> > **********
> >
> >
> > ----
> > To subscribe, unsubscribe, suspend, or view list archives,
> > visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ----
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, suspend, or view list archives,
> visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>
************************************************************************
This Internet E-mail is intended solely for the person to whom it is addressed. It may contain confidential or privileged information. If you have received it in error please notify us immediately by telephone and destroy the transmission. You must not copy, distribute or take any action in reliance on it.
Aerosystems International Phone: +44 (0)1935 443000
Fax : +44 (0)1935 443111
Web : www.aeroint.com
************************************************************************
----
To subscribe, unsubscribe, suspend, or view list archives,
visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/