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From: Mamta Tandel
Date: Mon, Jul 18 2005 4:32AM
Subject: Why do we need 'Scope' attribute?
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Hi all,



There are two things that can make a simple data table accessible:

1. Scope attribute

2. The header tag <th> (for the column and row headers)



With JAWS, a table with headers reads just as fine as with a table with
scope attribute.



The point is why do developers have to add an extra code by providing the
scope attribute when the same job can be done with headers?



Can someone let me know...

Do we need really need scope attribute?



Awaiting response.



Regards,

Mamta Tandel

From: Jan Eric Hellbusch
Date: Mon, Jul 18 2005 4:52AM
Subject: RE: Why do we need 'Scope' attribute?
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Hi,


> Can someone let me know...
> Do we need really need scope attribute?

You will need scope for multicolumn headers. Otherwise TH should be
sufficient.

Jan

--
Jan Eric Hellbusch
Tel.: 02 31 / 2 25 15 73 oder 01 63 / 3 36 99 25

.biz: http://2bweb.de
.info: http://bf-w.de

From: Nancy Swenson
Date: Mon, Jul 18 2005 4:53AM
Subject: RE: Why do we need 'Scope' attribute? (Out of the Office)
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Hello,

Thank you for your e-mail. I will be out of the office July 18-Jul 29. If you need immediate assistance while I am away, please e-mail the Instructional Design Office at: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = and another Instructional Designer will assist you.

Below are addtitional resources you may wish to consult for assistance.

Resources:

For Faculty teaching online: Teaching Online Web site: http://teach.ucf.edu

For Students taking online classes: Learning Online Web site:
http://learn.ucf.edu

For answers to our frequently asked questions or to submit a question to CDWS support staff, please check out:
http://ask.ucf.edu

Instructional Design Office's main number:
407-823-3809

Course Development and Web Services' main number:
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Sincerely,

Nancy


Nancy Swenson
Instructional Designer
Course Development and Web Services
University of Central Florida
4000 Central Florida Blvd.
Library Rm 107
Orlando, FL 32816-2810
407-823-4270
FAX: 407-823-3511
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From: Jim Thatcher
Date: Mon, Jul 18 2005 8:34PM
Subject: RE: Why do we need 'Scope' attribute?
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This is a very troubling question for me. Today screen readers assume the
first row and the first column are headers with no markup whatsoever. Well,
to be good citizens, we add TH's on those table cells that are headers even
though the screen readers don't need them. But the scope attribute? I
believe the ONLY cell that needs a scope attribute is the cell in the first
row and first column, cell 1,1, because that corner cell could either be a
row header or a column header (or neither). What scope could the TH in row
1, column 7 have besides scope="col".



I advise clients to use TH and scope - but darn it, it is redundant and
unnecessary - even silly!



Jim



Accessibility Consulting: http://jimthatcher.com/

512-306-0931

From: Christian Heilmann
Date: Tue, Jul 19 2005 12:23AM
Subject: Re: Why do we need 'Scope' attribute?
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> I advise clients to use TH and scope  but darn it, it is redundant and
> unnecessary  even silly!

Is that the same logic that makes people use attributes without quotes
and not close tags? Most modern browsers display that fine, why
bother then? :-)

--
Chris Heilmann
Blog: http://www.wait-till-i.com
Writing: http://icant.co.uk/
Binaries: http://www.onlinetools.org/

From: Thomas Jedenfelt
Date: Tue, Jul 19 2005 2:01AM
Subject: RE: Why do we need 'Scope' attribute?
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Jim,

Technically speaking, HTML 4.01 Spec. says:
'TH is for headers, TD for data, but for cells acting as both use TD'.

So, the below code would be preferred:
(capital letters and no closing tags used for clarity)

<TR>
<TH scope="col">Column A
<TH scope="col">Column B
<TR>
<TD scope="row">1 A
<TD>1 B
<TR>
<TD scope="row">2 A
<TD>2 B

Regarding User Agent's (UA) behaviour,
I do not know whether:
1) <TD scope="row">
2) <TH scope="row">
3) <TH>
are rendered differently (in benefit for the user).

As for your clients:
Tell them that Section 508 (1194.22) suggests using
<TH scope="col"> and <TD scope="row">. [1]

I'm sure your clients will accept '508' as authority, whether or not '508' is in fact correct (technically/UA behaviour).

Also, the more complex something is, the more your clients will view you as an expert, to your credit <smile>.

Finally, 'scope' might become (more?) useful in future UAs/browsers (compare HTML vs. XHTML).

Regards,
Thomas Jedenfelt

[1]
http://www.access-board.gov/sec508/guide/1194.22.htm#(g)

Further reading:
http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/tables.html#adef-scope
http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/tables.html#h-11.4
http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10-HTML-TECHS/#identifying-table-rows-columns
http://www.webaim.org/techniques/tables/2#scope


----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Thatcher"
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 21:35:19 -0500

> This is a very troubling question for me. Today screen readers assume the
> first row and the first column are headers with no markup whatsoever. Well,
> to be good citizens, we add TH's on those table cells that are headers even
> though the screen readers don't need them. But the scope attribute? I
> believe the ONLY cell that needs a scope attribute is the cell in the first
> row and first column, cell 1,1, because that corner cell could either be a
> row header or a column header (or neither). What scope could the TH in row
> 1, column 7 have besides scope="col".
>
> I advise clients to use TH and scope - but darn it, it is redundant and
> unnecessary - even silly!
>
>
> Jim
> Accessibility Consulting: http://jimthatcher.com/


--

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Download Opera 8 at http://www.opera.com

From: Cathy Mar
Date: Tue, Jul 19 2005 2:02AM
Subject: RE: Why do we need 'Scope' attribute? (Out-of-Office)
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I will be out of the office for from July 19 - July 22 due to surgery. Will be returning Monday July 25th. Please send all requests to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = . Please copy/paste the url location/web address to your work order to process your request.

If this should be an emergency request, please contact my supervisor Janice Albert at 322-6590.

Thank you,
Cathy Mar

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From: Stephane Deschamps
Date: Tue, Jul 19 2005 2:06AM
Subject: Re: Why do we need 'Scope' attribute?
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On 7/19/05, Jim Thatcher wrote:
>
> This is a very troubling question for me. Today screen readers assume the
> first row and the first column are headers with no markup whatsoever. Well,
> to be good citizens, we add TH's on those table cells that are headers even
> though the screen readers don't need them. But the scope attribute? I
> believe the ONLY cell that needs a scope attribute is the cell in the first
> row and first column, cell 1,1, because that corner cell could either be a
> row header or a column header (or neither). What scope could the TH in row
> 1, column 7 have besides scope="col".
>
>
>
> I advise clients to use TH and scope  but darn it, it is redundant and
> unnecessary  even silly!

I'm wondering how this would apply to headers-of-headers, namely
headers that span several columns. Would the screen reader understand
the structure as clearly without the attributes?

--
Stephane Deschamps
personal: http://nota-bene.org/
org: http://evolt.org/
french org: http://pompage.net/

From: Jim Thatcher
Date: Tue, Jul 19 2005 8:59AM
Subject: RE: Why do we need 'Scope' attribute?
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Christian Heilmann wrote:

>> I advise clients to use TH and scope - but darn it, it is redundant
>> and unnecessary - even silly!
>
> Is that the same logic that makes people use attributes without quotes and
not close tags?
> Most modern browsers display that fine, why bother then? :-)

I don't think it is quite the same because attributes without quotes won't
validate. It is invalid code. A situation for accessibility that is
comparable to quoted attributes is alt-text on "formatting" images. With no
alt-text or with alt="" they are ignored by screen readers but alt="" is
required in order to be valid HTML - so though it makes no difference to
screen readers it still must be done.


And Stephane Deschamps:
> I'm wondering how this would apply to headers-of-headers, namely headers
that span
> several columns. Would the screen reader understand the structure as
clearly without
> the attributes?

I am talking about the simplest of simple tables - headings in row 1 and
column 1. As soon as there is any variation in that I think th's are not
redundant; though scope is debatable.

Jim

Accessibility Consulting: http://jimthatcher.com/
512-306-0931