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Thread: Gmail and accessibility

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Number of posts in this thread: 17 (In chronological order)

From: Robert Erichsen
Date: Fri, Sep 14 2007 9:10AM
Subject: Gmail and accessibility
No previous message | Next message →

My university is considering moving student email accounts to Gmail for
a variety of reasons. Before we do this, we want to make sure that it
meets accessibility requirements. Does anyone have any experiences or
knowledge to share about how Gmail rates in this area?



I found some resources online at
http://gmail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=64950 but I'm
wondering if there are more independent and current reviews out there.



Best,





Robert Erichsen, M.A.

Assistive and Instructional Technology Specialist

Cal State University San Marcos

Academic Technology Services

760/750-8649 = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =







From: Cheryl D Wise
Date: Fri, Sep 14 2007 1:40PM
Subject: Re: Gmail and accessibility
← Previous message | Next message →

I won't use gmail for a variety of reasons including privacy concerns. Also,
many offers for students are only available for those using .edu accounts.

Cheryl D Wise
MS MVP Expression
Foundation of Microsoft Expression Web
http://by-expression.com


-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Erichsen

My university is considering moving student email accounts to Gmail for
a variety of reasons. Before we do this, we want to make sure that it
meets accessibility requirements. Does anyone have any experiences or
knowledge to share about how Gmail rates in this area?

I found some resources online at
http://gmail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=64950 but I'm
wondering if there are more independent and current reviews out there.

From: Travis Roth
Date: Fri, Sep 14 2007 8:30PM
Subject: Re: Gmail and accessibility
← Previous message | Next message →

> Also, many offers for students are only available for those using .edu
accounts.

I'd assume a university would use an edition of Google Apps that allows for
them to use a domain name of their choice making this a non-issue.


-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Cheryl D Wise
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 2:29 PM
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Gmail and accessibility

I won't use gmail for a variety of reasons including privacy concerns. Also,
many offers for students are only available for those using .edu accounts.

Cheryl D Wise
MS MVP Expression
Foundation of Microsoft Expression Web
http://by-expression.com


-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Erichsen

My university is considering moving student email accounts to Gmail for
a variety of reasons. Before we do this, we want to make sure that it
meets accessibility requirements. Does anyone have any experiences or
knowledge to share about how Gmail rates in this area?

I found some resources online at
http://gmail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=64950 but I'm
wondering if there are more independent and current reviews out there.

From: Travis Roth
Date: Fri, Sep 14 2007 8:40PM
Subject: Re: Gmail and accessibility
← Previous message | Next message →

The Basic HTML view is usable with a screen reader. I've not evaluated it
against Section 508 or W3C specifically, that's why I just say usable.

The non-basic HTML view is not accessible with screen readers. There may be
enough keyboard shortcuts for keyboard-only users but I am not sure.

The one thing I noted in the artile referenced, is that it says "most
settings and features" are available. I wonder what is missing and if that
would bring up a question of equivalent access being complete?

Gmail / Google Apps' email can be accessed via POP clients as well which
also helps.



-----Original Message
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Cheryl D Wise
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 2:29 PM
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Gmail and accessibility

I won't use gmail for a variety of reasons including privacy concerns. Also,
many offers for students are only available for those using .edu accounts.

Cheryl D Wise
MS MVP Expression
Foundation of Microsoft Expression Web
http://by-expression.com


-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Erichsen

My university is considering moving student email accounts to Gmail for
a variety of reasons. Before we do this, we want to make sure that it
meets accessibility requirements. Does anyone have any experiences or
knowledge to share about how Gmail rates in this area?

I found some resources online at
http://gmail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=64950 but I'm
wondering if there are more independent and current reviews out there.

From: Phil Teare
Date: Sat, Sep 15 2007 4:10AM
Subject: Re: Gmail and accessibility
← Previous message | Next message →

I won't use gmail for a variety of reasons including privacy concerns.

How so?

Chrs
Phil

--
Phil Teare,
CTO & Lead Architect,
http://www.talklets.com from Textic Ltd.
(44) [0] 208 4452871

From: Sean Keegan
Date: Mon, Sep 17 2007 1:40PM
Subject: Re: Gmail and accessibility
← Previous message | Next message →

> Does anyone have any experiences or knowledge to share
> about how Gmail rates in this area?

I attended a presentation at Google recently where they announced their
Google Apps for Education and raised the question of accessibility of their
apps, including Gmail. The engineers stated that they had completed an
accessibility review of the Google Apps, however, they would neither confirm
nor deny any information regarding the report. They did agree that there
were accessibility issues. If your institution is looking at Gmail, you may
want to consider building into the agreement a copy of the review itself.

Sean


From: Patrick H. Lauke
Date: Mon, Sep 17 2007 1:50PM
Subject: Re: Gmail and accessibility
← Previous message | Next message →

Sean Keegan wrote:

> I attended a presentation at Google recently where they announced their
> Google Apps for Education and raised the question of accessibility of their
> apps, including Gmail. The engineers stated that they had completed an
> accessibility review of the Google Apps, however, they would neither confirm
> nor deny any information regarding the report. They did agree that there
> were accessibility issues. If your institution is looking at Gmail, you may
> want to consider building into the agreement a copy of the review itself.

So, if the review shows that there are serious gaps in the accessibility
of the google apps, what next? Unless I'm missing something, at this
stage it's just a review, not a plan to rectify any issues that bubbled
to the surface.

P
--
Patrick H. Lauke

From: Peter Krantz
Date: Mon, Sep 17 2007 2:00PM
Subject: Re: Gmail and accessibility
← Previous message | Next message →

On 9/17/07, Sean Keegan < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> They did agree that there
> were accessibility issues.

A quick look at Gmail in Fangs shows a table based layout, primarily
generated by javascript. Icons lack the alt attribute. User
interaction requires javascript and updates occur without reloading
the page.

There is, however, a "basic html" version of Gmail which may work
better in some cases. It still has a table based layout but page
updates seem to work in pre web 2.0 way.

Regards,

Peter

From: Jennifer Sutton
Date: Mon, Sep 17 2007 2:10PM
Subject: Re: Gmail and accessibility
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi:

I have used the basic HTML GMail with my screen reader. Maybe I
missed it, but what I haven't noticed anyone mention is the point
that the basic HTML option does not offer the equivalent
functionality and feature set.
Jennifer

From: Moore, Michael
Date: Tue, Sep 18 2007 7:10AM
Subject: Re: Gmail and accessibility
← Previous message | Next message →

On item that I have not seen mentioned is that you can use Gmail with a
local email client like MS Outlook. This bypasses the accessibility
issues with the web interface.

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Patrick H.
Lauke
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 2:45 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Gmail and accessibility

Sean Keegan wrote:

> I attended a presentation at Google recently where they announced
> their Google Apps for Education and raised the question of
> accessibility of their apps, including Gmail. The engineers stated
> that they had completed an accessibility review of the Google Apps,
> however, they would neither confirm nor deny any information regarding

> the report. They did agree that there were accessibility issues. If
> your institution is looking at Gmail, you may want to consider
building into the agreement a copy of the review itself.

So, if the review shows that there are serious gaps in the accessibility
of the google apps, what next? Unless I'm missing something, at this
stage it's just a review, not a plan to rectify any issues that bubbled
to the surface.

P
--
Patrick H. Lauke

From: Hausler,Jesse
Date: Tue, Sep 18 2007 12:10PM
Subject: Re: Gmail and accessibility
← Previous message | Next message →

To address the privacy question:

I think the concerns are that the more one uses Google services, the more information they retain.

To begin with, your search queries are all logged and stored. With or without an official account, they know what IP addresses are making which requests.

Do you use google maps from home, from work?
They know where you live, where you work, who you visit, etc...

Do you use Froogle for online shopping? They know what you buy...

Use iGoogle, or google news? They know what news sites you read...

Use Gmail, Gchat? All your emails and chats are stored, and are even scoured to personalize Ad content.

It's not to say that anything is being done with all this information, but it can be scary to know that it's all set aside in a neat little package somewhere.


Some thoughts from the BBC:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/6704013.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/3602745.stm

Jesse
Reluctant Google Addict

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Phil Teare
Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 4:03 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Gmail and accessibility

I won't use gmail for a variety of reasons including privacy concerns.

How so?

Chrs
Phil

--
Phil Teare,
CTO & Lead Architect,
http://www.talklets.com from Textic Ltd.
(44) [0] 208 4452871

From: Phil Teare
Date: Tue, Sep 18 2007 12:50PM
Subject: Re: Gmail and accessibility
← Previous message | Next message →

True re the other stuff. But with regards to gmail, they don't store much
more personal info than the emails, and all email services do this. Its
aruguable that https web clients (such as Gmail) are better for those
concerned with privacy as your emails aren't stored on your non secure
desktop as well as the requisite remote storing.

But the access issues are more important in here I guess...

:)




On 18/09/2007, Hausler,Jesse < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> To address the privacy question:
>
> I think the concerns are that the more one uses Google services, the more
> information they retain.
>
> To begin with, your search queries are all logged and stored. With or
> without an official account, they know what IP addresses are making which
> requests.
>
> Do you use google maps from home, from work?
> They know where you live, where you work, who you visit, etc...
>
> Do you use Froogle for online shopping? They know what you buy...
>
> Use iGoogle, or google news? They know what news sites you read...
>
> Use Gmail, Gchat? All your emails and chats are stored, and are even
> scoured to personalize Ad content.
>
> It's not to say that anything is being done with all this information, but
> it can be scary to know that it's all set aside in a neat little package
> somewhere.
>
>
> Some thoughts from the BBC:
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/6704013.stm
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/3602745.stm
>
> Jesse
> Reluctant Google Addict
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto:
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Phil Teare
> Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 4:03 AM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Gmail and accessibility
>
> I won't use gmail for a variety of reasons including privacy concerns.
>
> How so?
>
> Chrs
> Phil
>
> --
> Phil Teare,
> CTO & Lead Architect,
> http://www.talklets.com from Textic Ltd.
> (44) [0] 208 4452871
>

From: Marc Grossman
Date: Tue, Sep 18 2007 1:00PM
Subject: Re: Gmail and accessibility
← Previous message | Next message →

As a JAWS user, I can say that I have used G mail in the HTML mode and I
found it to be fairly accessible but I did not enjoy its user interface.
Particularly, the concept of having the reply fields located on the same
page and trying to follow a particular "conversation." As with all web
based applications, each user is going to have its preference when it
comes to navigation. For example, Google arranging its search results
by headings and Yahoo using lists. I don't like navigating in G mail
with the keyboard commands.

Some of the people have mentioned using Outlook or Outlook Express to
access G mail as a Pop account, in which case I am not sure what benefit
G mail offers over its rivals.

I believe that Google has not yet made all of its calendar functions
accessible to screen reading software but it has been a while since I
checked.
-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Robert
Erichsen
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 11:06 AM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: [WebAIM] Gmail and accessibility



My university is considering moving student email accounts to Gmail for
a variety of reasons. Before we do this, we want to make sure that it
meets accessibility requirements. Does anyone have any experiences or
knowledge to share about how Gmail rates in this area?



I found some resources online at
http://gmail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=64950 but I'm
wondering if there are more independent and current reviews out there.



Best,





Robert Erichsen, M.A.

Assistive and Instructional Technology Specialist

Cal State University San Marcos

Academic Technology Services

760/750-8649 = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

From: Cheryl D Wise
Date: Tue, Sep 18 2007 2:50PM
Subject: Re: Gmail and accessibility
← Previous message | Next message →

Those are some of them and with Google mail there is also the whole indexing
question. Google uses that indexing to determine what ads to serve with your
mail.

To quote from http://mail.google.com/mail/help/intl/en/about.html#ads

7. Are there ads in Gmail?

Yes, there are small, unobtrusive, and relevant text ads alongside your
Gmail messages, similar to those on the side of Google search results pages.
The matching of ads to content is a completely automated process performed
by computers. No humans read your email to target the ads, and no email
content or other personally identifiable information is ever provided to
advertisers.

Ads are never inserted into the body text of either incoming or outgoing
Gmail messages and you won't see any pop-ups or untargeted banner ads in
Gmail. In fact, Gmail users have even told us that they've found our ads to
be interesting and even useful.


Cheryl D Wise
MS MVP Expression
Foundation of Microsoft Expression Web
http://by-expression.com


-----Original Message-----
From: Hausler,Jesse

To address the privacy question:

I think the concerns are that the more one uses Google services, the more
information they retain.

To begin with, your search queries are all logged and stored. With or
without an official account, they know what IP addresses are making which
requests.

Do you use google maps from home, from work?
They know where you live, where you work, who you visit, etc...

Do you use Froogle for online shopping? They know what you buy...

Use iGoogle, or google news? They know what news sites you read...

Use Gmail, Gchat? All your emails and chats are stored, and are even scoured
to personalize Ad content.

It's not to say that anything is being done with all this information, but
it can be scary to know that it's all set aside in a neat little package
somewhere.


Some thoughts from the BBC:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/6704013.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/3602745.stm

From: Emma Duke-Williams
Date: Wed, Sep 19 2007 9:40AM
Subject: Re: Gmail and accessibility
← Previous message | Next message →

On 18/09/2007, Cheryl D Wise < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Those are some of them and with Google mail there is also the whole indexing
> question. Google uses that indexing to determine what ads to serve with your
> mail.
>

LIke someone else, I'm a reluctant Google addict ... I do use Gmail,
primarily for mail lists etc., and then mostly because mailman
archiving is not that good, whereas Gmail searching is much more
powerful.
It also means that I can set my work email up to have out of office
messages, without having to worry about clogging up mail lists with
out of office messages, which I know annoy some people.

Re. The adverts. I don't find them a particular problem, indeed, it's
clear that it's automated, as the adverts don't always relate to what
I'm writing about. For example, I spent several years in PNG (Papua
New Guinea), yet when I mention it, I invariably get information about
.png graphics...

Re. The Conversations. That's something that many people find
difficult to grasp conceptually, along with the tagging. They both
take some getting used to - which could be an accessibility
consideration for those with cognitive problems who are used to other
systems.

Re. Downloading to a client. I tend to download to Thunderbird - which
means that I can "de-conversation", can put into folders, can do all
the usual things; but, I still have the online backup, the ability to
receive large attachments, and to not have to worry that my inbox
could get full up if I can't get to it for a few days, as can happen
with some ISPs.

I do agree Google as a whole is perhaps a little big, but having been
a Google fan since it was in beta, when colleagues thought I was odd
not to use Yahoo! for searching, I have a soft spot for it!

Emma

--
New URL: Blog: http://userweb.port.ac.uk/~duke-wie/blog/

From: Phil Teare
Date: Wed, Sep 19 2007 10:10AM
Subject: Re: Gmail and accessibility
← Previous message | Next message →

>
> there is also the whole indexing
> question. Google uses that indexing to determine what ads to serve with
> your
> mail.


They and every other email supplier also use indexing to make sure you get
the right email. Or allow you to search your archive, or...

If you take the info Yahoo! store for a given user, you are most likely able
to make the same/similar index data from it.

I'm a bit of a G addict too, and I still like to stick up for it against
what I personaly see as paranoia. G is useful because of its data. G apps
are similarly useful for often for similar reasons. You have the option of
using psuedonyms if privacy is a serious concern, otherwise, its best
(IMO) to realise we are now a watched, recorded and scrutised species (we
certainly are in the UK anyway).

all just my $.02 as they say...



On 18/09/2007, Cheryl D Wise < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> Those are some of them and with Google mail there is also the whole
> indexing
> question. Google uses that indexing to determine what ads to serve with
> your
> mail.
>
> To quote from http://mail.google.com/mail/help/intl/en/about.html#ads
>
> 7. Are there ads in Gmail?
>
> Yes, there are small, unobtrusive, and relevant text ads alongside your
> Gmail messages, similar to those on the side of Google search results
> pages.
> The matching of ads to content is a completely automated process performed
> by computers. No humans read your email to target the ads, and no email
> content or other personally identifiable information is ever provided to
> advertisers.
>
> Ads are never inserted into the body text of either incoming or outgoing
> Gmail messages and you won't see any pop-ups or untargeted banner ads in
> Gmail. In fact, Gmail users have even told us that they've found our ads
> to
> be interesting and even useful.
>
>
> Cheryl D Wise
> MS MVP Expression
> Foundation of Microsoft Expression Web
> http://by-expression.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Hausler,Jesse
>
> To address the privacy question:
>
> I think the concerns are that the more one uses Google services, the more
> information they retain.
>
> To begin with, your search queries are all logged and stored. With or
> without an official account, they know what IP addresses are making which
> requests.
>
> Do you use google maps from home, from work?
> They know where you live, where you work, who you visit, etc...
>
> Do you use Froogle for online shopping? They know what you buy...
>
> Use iGoogle, or google news? They know what news sites you read...
>
> Use Gmail, Gchat? All your emails and chats are stored, and are even
> scoured
> to personalize Ad content.
>
> It's not to say that anything is being done with all this information, but
> it can be scary to know that it's all set aside in a neat little package
> somewhere.
>
>
> Some thoughts from the BBC:
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/6704013.stm
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/3602745.stm
>
>

From: Sean Keegan
Date: Wed, Sep 19 2007 5:00PM
Subject: Re: Gmail and accessibility
← Previous message | No next message

> So, if the review shows that there are serious gaps in
> the accessibility of the google apps, what next? Unless
> I'm missing something, at this stage it's just a review,
> not a plan to rectify any issues that bubbled to the surface.

My point was that at least there is some information (admittedly, from
*them*) that identifies the accessibility issues within the interface. Such
information could be then taken back to administration, purchasing,
contracts office, etc. and used as part of the decision-making process for
deciding between different vendors. Perhaps they have identified three
different potential vendors that meet their specific e-mail needs and are
looking for an accessibility review of the products? I don't know - the
original poster did not go into any detail, just that he was interested in
any experiences of knowledge about Gmail accessibility.

Incidentally, my colleague did ask the follow-up question, "Now that you
know the issues, what are your plans to address the shortcomings and/or will
you continue to develop inaccessible apps only to fix them at a later date?"

Let's just say there were a lot of crickets chirping...

Take care,
sean