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Thread: ins and del

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Number of posts in this thread: 7 (In chronological order)

From: Moore, Michael
Date: Fri, Sep 19 2008 3:00PM
Subject: ins and del
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We want to identify an accessible method for indicating insertions and
deletions within legal documents and policy documents that are
undergoing revision. These documents are published in html.

The <ins> and <del> elements provide semantic support but JAWS ignores
them. We have looked at the following two methods.

1. Add a 1 pixel clear gif prior to and after the deleted or inserted
text with alt text indicating the status of the text. Position the
graphic off screen to prevent the browser from displaying a placeholder
or the alt text if the graphic fails to load or is blocked. For the
deletion example JAWS will now say "graphic begin deletion Here is some
deleted text" graphic end deletion."

It is a bit clumsy needing to listen to JAWS announce the graphics
although users can turn that off but has the advantage that it will not
affect the visual display unless both CSS and graphics are disabled.

2. Wrap the text indicating the beginning and the end of the insertion
or deletion with a span inside of a span and position the span off
screen using CSS.

JAWS reads smoother now without the announcement of "graphic" but there
is a risk that if CSS is disabled all users will see the text.

My question is which method seems best, or is there another method that
I have not thought of?

Mike



Mike Moore
DARS Accessibility Specialist
(512) 424-4159


From: Jared Smith
Date: Fri, Sep 19 2008 3:20PM
Subject: Re: ins and del
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On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 2:57 PM, Moore, Michael wrote:
> 1. Add a 1 pixel clear gif prior to and after the deleted or inserted
> text with alt text indicating the status of the text.
>
> It is a bit clumsy needing to listen to JAWS announce the graphics
> although users can turn that off but has the advantage that it will not
> affect the visual display unless both CSS and graphics are disabled.

As you note, screen readers don't always identify graphics. You
shouldn't necessarily avoid images just because they might be
identified.

> 2. Wrap the text indicating the beginning and the end of the insertion
> or deletion with a span inside of a span and position the span off
> screen using CSS.
>
> JAWS reads smoother now without the announcement of "graphic" but there
> is a risk that if CSS is disabled all users will see the text.

Why two spans? Wouldn't one work? You are using <del> and <ins>
regardless of the lack of support, correct?

While users may see the text in Option 2 if CSS is disabled, they
would see the same text in Option 1 if images are disabled. I'd maybe
put the text in parentheses to help offset it in these cases. Beyond
that, either option looks OK, though clearly not as good as if screen
readers actually supported these elements. And I can't really think of
a better option. I'm more of a minimalist, so I'd probably go with
Option 2.

Jared Smith
WebAIM

From: Moore, Michael
Date: Fri, Sep 19 2008 3:30PM
Subject: Re: ins and del
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Thanks Jared,

I actually meant to say a span inside of the ins or del element. (Friday
afternoon brain glitch). In both cases the indicator is positioned off
screen.

Good idea about the parenthesis, it will help if the text actually shows
up on the screen for some reason.

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Jared Smith
Sent: Friday, September 19, 2008 4:18 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] ins and del

On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 2:57 PM, Moore, Michael wrote:
> 1. Add a 1 pixel clear gif prior to and after the deleted or inserted
> text with alt text indicating the status of the text.
>
> It is a bit clumsy needing to listen to JAWS announce the graphics
> although users can turn that off but has the advantage that it will
not
> affect the visual display unless both CSS and graphics are disabled.

As you note, screen readers don't always identify graphics. You
shouldn't necessarily avoid images just because they might be
identified.

> 2. Wrap the text indicating the beginning and the end of the insertion
> or deletion with a span inside of a span and position the span off
> screen using CSS.
>
> JAWS reads smoother now without the announcement of "graphic" but
there
> is a risk that if CSS is disabled all users will see the text.

Why two spans? Wouldn't one work? You are using <del> and <ins>
regardless of the lack of support, correct?

While users may see the text in Option 2 if CSS is disabled, they
would see the same text in Option 1 if images are disabled. I'd maybe
put the text in parentheses to help offset it in these cases. Beyond
that, either option looks OK, though clearly not as good as if screen
readers actually supported these elements. And I can't really think of
a better option. I'm more of a minimalist, so I'd probably go with
Option 2.

Jared Smith
WebAIM

From: St├ęphane Deschamps
Date: Sat, Sep 20 2008 3:20AM
Subject: Re: ins and del
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<quote who='Moore, Michael' when='19/09/2008 23:24'>
> Thanks Jared,
>
> I actually meant to say a span inside of the ins or del element. (Friday
> afternoon brain glitch). In both cases the indicator is positioned off
> screen.
>
> Good idea about the parenthesis, it will help if the text actually shows
> up on the screen for some reason.

You could also have a little JS DOM routine that automagically adds
"begin insert here", "end insert", "begin delete", "end delete" when the
pag is loaded. Screen readers seem to behave nicely with this kind of
method nowadays.

Depending on the context, you could only add those on demand with an
additional option somewhere in our application.

I'm more and more of the opinion that sometimes we need to adjust on
demand for these kinds of subtleties.

--
St├ęphane Deschamps
perso: http://www.nota-bene.org/
org: http://www.pompage.net/

From: Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis
Date: Sat, Sep 20 2008 7:40AM
Subject: Re: ins and del
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Moore, Michael wrote:
> We want to identify an accessible method for indicating insertions and
> deletions within legal documents and policy documents that are
> undergoing revision. These documents are published in html.

How about pages for showing individual versions and diffs between
revisions, as with Wikipedia article history?

> The <ins> and <del> elements provide semantic support but JAWS ignores
> them.

JAWS ignores the elements themselves. However, it can be configured to
differentiate struckthrough and underlined text using Speech and Sounds
Manager. There's some discussion of this here:

http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/?p=41

--
Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis

From: smithj7@peoplepc.com
Date: Tue, Sep 23 2008 2:40PM
Subject: Re: ins and del
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I took a different approach to the same problem. Florida Blind Services has
a business enterprises program - blind vendors of food service facilities.
All managers must be legally blind. A person with low vision did their
minutes that had a policy change using green for additions and red for
deletions. I couldn't change the minutes, but needed to let our speech users
(some actually use windows eyes) have the same information. I used an old
fashion approach, Words.

Here was my disclaimer. You can guess what I did or look at full minutes at
http://dbs.myflorida.com/bep/minutes/1104.htm

Disclaimer from web administrator: Minutes were modified to ensure people
using speech or people who are colored blind would understand what text was
deleted in the "Selection Process Improvements" and what new text was
replaced. Original text counted on "color only" as an indication of deleted
text. The use of color was kept, but the text such as "the following was
deleted" and where appropriate "replaced with" were added to minutes in the
appropriate places to ensure that everyone could benefit from the details
outlined in these minutes. Context was in no way modified.

This seems to be the approach that is used in the federal register as well.
(without the color that the low vision user liked - just the words, no
disclaimer needed).


----- Original Message -----
From: "Moore, Michael" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >; "Discussion
list for web and software accessibility issues"
< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Friday, September 19, 2008 4:57 PM
Subject: [WebAIM] ins and del


> We want to identify an accessible method for indicating insertions and
> deletions within legal documents and policy documents that are
> undergoing revision. These documents are published in html.
>
> The <ins> and <del> elements provide semantic support but JAWS ignores
> them. We have looked at the following two methods.
>
> 1. Add a 1 pixel clear gif prior to and after the deleted or inserted
> text with alt text indicating the status of the text. Position the
> graphic off screen to prevent the browser from displaying a placeholder
> or the alt text if the graphic fails to load or is blocked. For the
> deletion example JAWS will now say "graphic begin deletion Here is some
> deleted text" graphic end deletion."
>
> It is a bit clumsy needing to listen to JAWS announce the graphics
> although users can turn that off but has the advantage that it will not
> affect the visual display unless both CSS and graphics are disabled.
>
> 2. Wrap the text indicating the beginning and the end of the insertion
> or deletion with a span inside of a span and position the span off
> screen using CSS.
>
> JAWS reads smoother now without the announcement of "graphic" but there
> is a risk that if CSS is disabled all users will see the text.
>
> My question is which method seems best, or is there another method that
> I have not thought of?
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> Mike Moore
> DARS Accessibility Specialist
> (512) 424-4159
>
>
>

From: Derek Featherstone
Date: Tue, Sep 23 2008 11:50PM
Subject: Re: ins and del
← Previous message | No next message

On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 4:57 PM, Moore, Michael
< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> We want to identify an accessible method for indicating insertions and
> deletions within legal documents and policy documents that are
> undergoing revision. These documents are published in html.

Hi Mike,

A few quick thoughts on the issues you face with this.

Yes, the approach you're taking with extra hidden cues in HTML is
perhaps the most "open" and accessible format traditionally, but is
clearly not going to be the most easily understood or worked with. You
and the others have identified the shortcomings of hidden text,
invisible images and other hoop-jumping to publish in HTML in an
intelligible way.

Have you considered an alternative format -- publish these legal docs
in an RTF and/or Word formats (in addition to your HTML based version)
that specifically meet the needs of revision tracking much better than
you can create with HTML. Jaws, at least, works well with revisions
(the "R" keystroke takes you to the next revision, Insert + Shift + R
will give you a "List of all Revisions in a Document" etc); RTF
supports revision marking so you could provide that as well, for use
with free alternatives like Open Office.

This way you would be providing an HTML version to "technically" meet
your needs for publishing in HTML, but your Word/RTF version would
provide a much better experience for those that are specifically
looking for changed/inserted/deleted items.

Thoughts?

Derek

--
Derek Featherstone = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
tel: +1 613-599-9784 1-866-932-4878 (toll-free in North America)
Work: http://www.furtherahead.com
Blog: http://www.boxofchocolates.ca
Learn: http://north.webdirections.org