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Thread: Useful Alt Text?

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Number of posts in this thread: 12 (In chronological order)

From: McDonald, Jennifer
Date: Tue, Jun 14 2011 12:09PM
Subject: Useful Alt Text?
No previous message | Next message →

If your webpage has an icon (not a link) in front of a "Read More" link,
does that icon need to have alt text? When I run the page through JAWS
it seems overly verbose to me. What is read is: "Graphic - read more
image (which is the alt text at this time) - Link - Read More".

Is this useful to screen reader users? I would probably would not call
this a "meaningful" image and thus provide an empty alt. Would doing
this be detrimental to anyone? Just checking before I make that
recommendation.

-Jeni

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are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this
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From: Donald Evans
Date: Tue, Jun 14 2011 12:15PM
Subject: Re: Useful Alt Text?
← Previous message | Next message →

You should use alt="" on the image.
See: http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/H2.html


On Tue, Jun 14, 2011 at 2:08 PM, McDonald, Jennifer < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >wrote:

> If your webpage has an icon (not a link) in front of a "Read More" link,
> does that icon need to have alt text? When I run the page through JAWS
> it seems overly verbose to me. What is read is: "Graphic - read more
> image (which is the alt text at this time) - Link - Read More".
>
> Is this useful to screen reader users? I would probably would not call
> this a "meaningful" image and thus provide an empty alt. Would doing
> this be detrimental to anyone? Just checking before I make that
> recommendation.
>
> -Jeni
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The information contained in this communication may be confidential, is
> intended
> only for the use of the recipient(s) named above, and may be legally
> privileged. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient,
> you
> are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of
> this
> communication, or any of its contents, is strictly prohibited. If you have
> received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately
> and
> destroy or delete the original message and any copy of it from your
> computer
> system. If you have any questions concerning this message, please contact
> the
> sender.
>
> ================================================================================
>

From: Donald Evans
Date: Tue, Jun 14 2011 12:30PM
Subject: Re: Useful Alt Text?
← Previous message | Next message →

Good point. It's also much better for Search Engine Optimization.

On Tue, Jun 14, 2011 at 2:27 PM, < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Although it is WCAG 2.0 Level AAA, allowing links to be read out of
> context is very helpful. Screen reader users may pull up a list of links
> by pressing the JAWS (Insert) + F7 key. Hearing a bunch or even one "More
> Info" link is not very user friendly. Possibly try "More Info about blah
> blah blah".
>
>
>
>
> From:
> Donald Evans < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> To:
> WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Date:
> 06/14/2011 02:12 PM
> Subject:
> Re: [WebAIM] Useful Alt Text?
> Sent by:
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>
>
>
> You should use alt="" on the image.
> See: http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/H2.html
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 14, 2011 at 2:08 PM, McDonald, Jennifer
> < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >wrote:
>
> > If your webpage has an icon (not a link) in front of a "Read More" link,
> > does that icon need to have alt text? When I run the page through JAWS
> > it seems overly verbose to me. What is read is: "Graphic - read more
> > image (which is the alt text at this time) - Link - Read More".
> >
> > Is this useful to screen reader users? I would probably would not call
> > this a "meaningful" image and thus provide an empty alt. Would doing
> > this be detrimental to anyone? Just checking before I make that
> > recommendation.
> >
> > -Jeni
> >
> >
> >
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > The information contained in this communication may be confidential, is
> > intended
> > only for the use of the recipient(s) named above, and may be legally
> > privileged. If the reader of this message is not the intended
> recipient,
> > you
> > are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of
> > this
> > communication, or any of its contents, is strictly prohibited. If you
> have
> > received this communication in error, please notify the sender
> immediately
> > and
> > destroy or delete the original message and any copy of it from your
> > computer
> > system. If you have any questions concerning this message, please
> contact
> > the
> > sender.
> >
> >
>
> ================================================================================
> >

From: youngv5@nationwide.com
Date: Tue, Jun 14 2011 12:36PM
Subject: Re: Useful Alt Text?
← Previous message | Next message →

Although it is WCAG 2.0 Level AAA, allowing links to be read out of
context is very helpful. Screen reader users may pull up a list of links
by pressing the JAWS (Insert) + F7 key. Hearing a bunch or even one "More
Info" link is not very user friendly. Possibly try "More Info about blah
blah blah".




From:
Donald Evans < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To:
WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Date:
06/14/2011 02:12 PM
Subject:
Re: [WebAIM] Useful Alt Text?
Sent by:
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =



You should use alt="" on the image.
See: http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/H2.html


On Tue, Jun 14, 2011 at 2:08 PM, McDonald, Jennifer
< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >wrote:

> If your webpage has an icon (not a link) in front of a "Read More" link,
> does that icon need to have alt text? When I run the page through JAWS
> it seems overly verbose to me. What is read is: "Graphic - read more
> image (which is the alt text at this time) - Link - Read More".
>
> Is this useful to screen reader users? I would probably would not call
> this a "meaningful" image and thus provide an empty alt. Would doing
> this be detrimental to anyone? Just checking before I make that
> recommendation.
>
> -Jeni
>
>
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The information contained in this communication may be confidential, is
> intended
> only for the use of the recipient(s) named above, and may be legally
> privileged. If the reader of this message is not the intended
recipient,
> you
> are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of
> this
> communication, or any of its contents, is strictly prohibited. If you
have
> received this communication in error, please notify the sender
immediately
> and
> destroy or delete the original message and any copy of it from your
> computer
> system. If you have any questions concerning this message, please
contact
> the
> sender.
>
>
================================================================================
>

From: Keith Parks
Date: Tue, Jun 14 2011 3:03PM
Subject: Re: Useful Alt Text?
← Previous message | Next message →

On Jun 14, 2011, at 11:30 AM, Donald Evans wrote:

> Good point. It's also much better for Search Engine Optimization.

I think the post specified that the icon was *not* a link. So it seems like alt="" would be proper, and the other issue of repeated "read more" wording should be addressed in the link text itself...

"Read more about blah blah", and if desired, hide the "blah blah" off-screen through css, if it seems unnecessary when the link are viewed *in* context.

******************************
Keith Parks
Graphic Designer/Web Designer
Student Affairs Communications Services
San Diego State University
San Diego, CA 92182-7444
(619) 594-1046
mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
http://www.sa.sdsu.edu/communications

http://kparks.deviantart.com/gallery
----------------------------------------------------------

Proud member of D/d.U.T.R.T.W.O.C.H.S.
(Designers/developers United To Rid The Web Of "Click Here" Syndrome)

From: YOUNGV5@nationwide.com
Date: Wed, Jun 15 2011 7:45AM
Subject: Re: Useful Alt Text?
← Previous message | Next message →

Yes Keith, Donald already mentioned alt="" would be best:

You should use alt="" on the image.
See: http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/H2.html

With alt="" there is no more issue of a repeated "read More". Your
comment:

So it seems like alt="" would be proper, and the other issue of repeated
"read more" wording should be addressed in the link text itself...

Was unclear to me.

Vincent Young
Web Accessibility Specialist
User Experience Team
Nationwide®
o | 614·677·5094
c | 614·607·3400
e | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =




From:
Keith Parks < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To:
WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Date:
06/14/2011 05:04 PM
Subject:
Re: [WebAIM] Useful Alt Text?
Sent by:
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =




On Jun 14, 2011, at 11:30 AM, Donald Evans wrote:

> Good point. It's also much better for Search Engine Optimization.

I think the post specified that the icon was *not* a link. So it seems
like alt="" would be proper, and the other issue of repeated "read more"
wording should be addressed in the link text itself...

"Read more about blah blah", and if desired, hide the "blah blah"
off-screen through css, if it seems unnecessary when the link are viewed
*in* context.

******************************
Keith Parks
Graphic Designer/Web Designer
Student Affairs Communications Services
San Diego State University
San Diego, CA 92182-7444
(619) 594-1046
mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
http://www.sa.sdsu.edu/communications

http://kparks.deviantart.com/gallery
----------------------------------------------------------

Proud member of D/d.U.T.R.T.W.O.C.H.S.
(Designers/developers United To Rid The Web Of "Click Here" Syndrome)

From: Jukka K. Korpela
Date: Wed, Jun 15 2011 8:09AM
Subject: Re: Useful Alt Text?
← Previous message | Next message →

= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = wrote:

> With alt="" there is no more issue of a repeated "read More".

There is an issue with "Read More" even when it is not repeated. This is
not about alt text, though repeating "Read More" in alt text would make
things worse of course.

The issue is that "Read More" does not make sense out of context,
especially on page that has several such link texts. And links can and
will be used out of context, too. Many people think links shouldn't be
handled that way, but they are.

So a link to more information should have link text that summarizes the
content of the linked document in a few words. This is somewhat
difficult to authors, because the link appears after some text that has
already summarized some information. But often the link points to the
full text of an article, and then you can use the heading or title of
that article. If it coincides with some text on the linking page, so be
it. (But a well-written news teaser, for example, does not repeat the
full heading of the full story.)

If you can do things that way, then you can use an icon before such
links, and _then_ these icons can and should have non-empty alt texts,
like "Read more:" or "Read the full story:". The user would then hear
such words, or see a corresponding graphic, followed by a link text that
could stand on its own - but here it stands along with an indicator, the
icon, which has a job of its own.

--
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/

From: YOUNGV5@nationwide.com
Date: Wed, Jun 15 2011 8:24AM
Subject: Re: Useful Alt Text?
← Previous message | Next message →

@Jukka:

I mentioned this to Jennifer. I think you might have missed my previous
reply yesterday:

Although it is WCAG 2.0 Level AAA, allowing links to be read out of
context is very helpful. Screen reader users may pull up a list of links
by pressing the JAWS (Insert) + F7 key. Hearing a bunch or even one "More
Info" link is not very user friendly. Possibly try "More Info about blah
blah blah".

I think we have squashed this issue. One last comment: if for some
reason you *NEED* to only show the text read more, try hiding the rest of
this text with the following technique:

http://yaccessibilityblog.com/library/css-clip-hidden-content.html

Vincent Young
Web Accessibility Specialist
User Experience Team
Nationwide®
o | 614·677·5094
c | 614·607·3400
e | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =




From:
"Jukka K. Korpela" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To:
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Date:
06/15/2011 10:09 AM
Subject:
Re: [WebAIM] Useful Alt Text?
Sent by:
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =



= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = wrote:

> With alt="" there is no more issue of a repeated "read More".

There is an issue with "Read More" even when it is not repeated. This is
not about alt text, though repeating "Read More" in alt text would make
things worse of course.

The issue is that "Read More" does not make sense out of context,
especially on page that has several such link texts. And links can and
will be used out of context, too. Many people think links shouldn't be
handled that way, but they are.

So a link to more information should have link text that summarizes the
content of the linked document in a few words. This is somewhat
difficult to authors, because the link appears after some text that has
already summarized some information. But often the link points to the
full text of an article, and then you can use the heading or title of
that article. If it coincides with some text on the linking page, so be
it. (But a well-written news teaser, for example, does not repeat the
full heading of the full story.)

If you can do things that way, then you can use an icon before such
links, and _then_ these icons can and should have non-empty alt texts,
like "Read more:" or "Read the full story:". The user would then hear
such words, or see a corresponding graphic, followed by a link text that
could stand on its own - but here it stands along with an indicator, the
icon, which has a job of its own.

--
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/

From: Keith Parks
Date: Wed, Jun 15 2011 9:18AM
Subject: Re: Useful Alt Text?
← Previous message | Next message →

(Aargh... it is so hard to resist the urge to make oneself understood.... errr... resistance is failing...)

On Jun 15, 2011, at 6:45 AM, = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = wrote:

> Yes Keith, Donald already mentioned alt="" would be best:

Yes, I realize that.

The reason I posted my comment was that as I read his post, then your post, then his response, I felt that a distinction had been lost between the proper alt value on the non-linked icon before the links, and the wording of the links themselves.

So when you said "Possibly try "More Info about blah blah blah".", and Mr. Evans agreed with you, I felt this could be interpreted to pertain to the alt text, and not the link text.

So I was just trying to put that distinction back into the conversation, so the original poster would understand the recommendation (that we all seem to agree on).

******************************
Keith Parks
Graphic Designer/Web Designer
Student Affairs Communications Services
San Diego State University
San Diego, CA 92182-7444
(619) 594-1046
mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
http://www.sa.sdsu.edu/communications

http://kparks.deviantart.com/gallery
----------------------------------------------------------

Proud member of D/d.U.T.R.T.W.O.C.H.S.
(Designers/developers United To Rid The Web Of "Click Here" Syndrome)

From: McDonald, Jennifer
Date: Wed, Jun 15 2011 9:24AM
Subject: Re: Useful Alt Text?
← Previous message | Next message →

What about adding a title to the a href?

<a href="link.html" title="Read more - Story Name">Read More</a>

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 9:23 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Cc: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ; = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Useful Alt Text?

@Jukka:

I mentioned this to Jennifer. I think you might have missed my previous
reply yesterday:

Although it is WCAG 2.0 Level AAA, allowing links to be read out of
context is very helpful. Screen reader users may pull up a list of
links by pressing the JAWS (Insert) + F7 key. Hearing a bunch or even
one "More Info" link is not very user friendly. Possibly try "More Info
about blah blah blah".

I think we have squashed this issue. One last comment: if for some
reason you *NEED* to only show the text read more, try hiding the rest
of this text with the following technique:

http://yaccessibilityblog.com/library/css-clip-hidden-content.html

Vincent Young
Web Accessibility Specialist
User Experience Team
Nationwide(r)
o | 614*677*5094
c | 614*607*3400
e | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =




From:
"Jukka K. Korpela" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To:
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Date:
06/15/2011 10:09 AM
Subject:
Re: [WebAIM] Useful Alt Text?
Sent by:
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =



= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = wrote:

> With alt="" there is no more issue of a repeated "read More".

There is an issue with "Read More" even when it is not repeated. This is
not about alt text, though repeating "Read More" in alt text would make
things worse of course.

The issue is that "Read More" does not make sense out of context,
especially on page that has several such link texts. And links can and
will be used out of context, too. Many people think links shouldn't be
handled that way, but they are.

So a link to more information should have link text that summarizes the
content of the linked document in a few words. This is somewhat
difficult to authors, because the link appears after some text that has
already summarized some information. But often the link points to the
full text of an article, and then you can use the heading or title of
that article. If it coincides with some text on the linking page, so be
it. (But a well-written news teaser, for example, does not repeat the
full heading of the full story.)

If you can do things that way, then you can use an icon before such
links, and _then_ these icons can and should have non-empty alt texts,
like "Read more:" or "Read the full story:". The user would then hear
such words, or see a corresponding graphic, followed by a link text that
could stand on its own - but here it stands along with an indicator, the
icon, which has a job of its own.

--
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/

From: YOUNGV5@nationwide.com
Date: Wed, Jun 15 2011 11:36AM
Subject: Re: Useful Alt Text?
← Previous message | Next message →

By default in most screen readers, title text does not get read and most
do not enable for many reasons.

In order of best solution:

1. <img src="read-more.png" alt="" /><a href="link.html">Read more - Story
Name</a>

2. <img src="read-more.png" alt="" /><a href="read-more.html" title="Read
more - Story Name">Read more<span> - Story Name</span></a>
(<span> would have CSS applied that visually hides text: Use absolute
positioning or clipping)

3. <img src="read-more.png" alt="" /><a href="read-more.html" title="Read
more - Story Name" label="Read more - Story Name">Read more</a>

Vincent Young
Web Accessibility Specialist
User Experience Team
Nationwide®
o | 614·677·5094
c | 614·607·3400
e | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =




From:
"McDonald, Jennifer" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To:
"WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Date:
06/15/2011 11:21 AM
Subject:
Re: [WebAIM] Useful Alt Text?
Sent by:
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =



What about adding a title to the a href?

<a href="link.html" title="Read more - Story Name">Read More</a>

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 9:23 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Cc: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ; = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Useful Alt Text?

@Jukka:

I mentioned this to Jennifer. I think you might have missed my previous
reply yesterday:

Although it is WCAG 2.0 Level AAA, allowing links to be read out of
context is very helpful. Screen reader users may pull up a list of
links by pressing the JAWS (Insert) + F7 key. Hearing a bunch or even
one "More Info" link is not very user friendly. Possibly try "More Info
about blah blah blah".

I think we have squashed this issue. One last comment: if for some
reason you *NEED* to only show the text read more, try hiding the rest
of this text with the following technique:

http://yaccessibilityblog.com/library/css-clip-hidden-content.html

Vincent Young
Web Accessibility Specialist
User Experience Team
Nationwide(r)
o | 614*677*5094
c | 614*607*3400
e | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =




From:
"Jukka K. Korpela" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To:
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Date:
06/15/2011 10:09 AM
Subject:
Re: [WebAIM] Useful Alt Text?
Sent by:
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =



= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = wrote:

> With alt="" there is no more issue of a repeated "read More".

There is an issue with "Read More" even when it is not repeated. This is
not about alt text, though repeating "Read More" in alt text would make
things worse of course.

The issue is that "Read More" does not make sense out of context,
especially on page that has several such link texts. And links can and
will be used out of context, too. Many people think links shouldn't be
handled that way, but they are.

So a link to more information should have link text that summarizes the
content of the linked document in a few words. This is somewhat
difficult to authors, because the link appears after some text that has
already summarized some information. But often the link points to the
full text of an article, and then you can use the heading or title of
that article. If it coincides with some text on the linking page, so be
it. (But a well-written news teaser, for example, does not repeat the
full heading of the full story.)

If you can do things that way, then you can use an icon before such
links, and _then_ these icons can and should have non-empty alt texts,
like "Read more:" or "Read the full story:". The user would then hear
such words, or see a corresponding graphic, followed by a link text that
could stand on its own - but here it stands along with an indicator, the
icon, which has a job of its own.

--
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/

From: Hoffman, Allen
Date: Thu, Jun 16 2011 9:24AM
Subject: Re: Useful Alt Text?
← Previous message | No next message

Just out of curiosity, I am a poor quality assurance kind of reviewer on
this topic, but why does this seem so difficult for so many?
Just ask yourself:
What would you need to hear to know what the non-text element is, or
what it is on the page for?
And you should arrive at what goes in alt-text.
I am a poor reviewer because I am a very very long time screen reader
user, so know what I expect or want, but it boils down to what makes
sense, not more than makes sense, or less. It is not that hard to
figure out folks, or at least shouldn't be.


Don't repeat alt text would be a general rule of thumb for me--as you
said about the icon. If the icon isn't really serving purpose that
isn't already met by the alt text on the link, make a null tag and keep
moving--you'll be fine.

Allen Hoffman





-----Original Message-----
From: McDonald, Jennifer [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2011 2:08 PM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: [WebAIM] Useful Alt Text?

If your webpage has an icon (not a link) in front of a "Read More" link,
does that icon need to have alt text? When I run the page through JAWS
it seems overly verbose to me. What is read is: "Graphic - read more
image (which is the alt text at this time) - Link - Read More".

Is this useful to screen reader users? I would probably would not call
this a "meaningful" image and thus provide an empty alt. Would doing
this be detrimental to anyone? Just checking before I make that
recommendation.

-Jeni

------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
The information contained in this communication may be confidential, is
intended
only for the use of the recipient(s) named above, and may be legally
privileged. If the reader of this message is not the intended
recipient, you
are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of
this
communication, or any of its contents, is strictly prohibited. If you
have
received this communication in error, please notify the sender
immediately and
destroy or delete the original message and any copy of it from your
computer
system. If you have any questions concerning this message, please
contact the
sender.
========================================================================
========