E-mail List Archives

Thread: Your thoughts

for

Number of posts in this thread: 13 (In chronological order)

From: Corbett, James
Date: Tue, Sep 04 2012 1:06PM
Subject: Your thoughts
No previous message | Next message →

Hello all:

Based upon the following line of code, what would you expect the end user experience to be if JAWS 13 were used:

1. <h3 class="invisible"> Section C </h3>

Jim
James Corbett
IT Developer - Analyst
ITB/Solutions/BP&A/DevCentre/Developer Tools and Horizontal Initiatives Services
613 941-9355 | facsimile / télécopieur 613-954-9222
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Canada Revenue Agency | 875 Heron Rd Rm H4-177, Ottawa ON K1A OL8
Agence du revenu du Canada | 875 chemin Heron, ch H4-177 Ottawa ON K1A 0L8
Government of Canada | Gouvernement du Canada

"Some stories are true that never happened". -Elie Wiesel, writer, Nobel laureate (b. 1928)

From: Léonie Watson
Date: Tue, Sep 04 2012 1:17PM
Subject: Re: Your thoughts
← Previous message | Next message →

James Corbett wrote:
" Based upon the following line of code, what would you expect the end user
experience to be if JAWS 13 were used:

1. <h3 class="invisible"> Section C </h3>"

Taking your code snippet literally, Jaws reads the heading as per the HTML.
This behaviour might weel change though, depending on the CSS that might be
applied through the "invisible" class.

Léonie.



-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Corbett, James
Sent: 04 September 2012 20:06
To: W-Aim ( = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = )
Subject: [WebAIM] Your thoughts

Hello all:

Based upon the following line of code, what would you expect the end user
experience to be if JAWS 13 were used:

1. <h3 class="invisible"> Section C </h3>

Jim
James Corbett
IT Developer - Analyst
ITB/Solutions/BP&A/DevCentre/Developer Tools and Horizontal Initiatives
Services
613 941-9355 | facsimile / télécopieur 613-954-9222
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = Canada Revenue Agency | 875 Heron Rd Rm H4-177,
Ottawa ON K1A OL8 Agence du revenu du Canada | 875 chemin Heron, ch H4-177
Ottawa ON K1A 0L8 Government of Canada | Gouvernement du Canada

"Some stories are true that never happened". -Elie Wiesel, writer, Nobel
laureate (b. 1928)



messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

From: Tony Olivero
Date: Tue, Sep 04 2012 1:17PM
Subject: Re: Your thoughts
← Previous message | Next message →

Jim,

I'd say it would depend on how .invisible was implemented. If it's done by
positioning the text off-screen, I'd expect JAWS to read "Section C, heading
level 3". If it's done with something like display: none, then I'd expect
JAWS to ignore it entirely.

I assume you're going for the former, but wasn't sure.

Tony

-----Original Message-----
From: Corbett, James [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2012 14:06
To: W-Aim ( = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = )
Subject: [WebAIM] Your thoughts

Hello all:

Based upon the following line of code, what would you expect the end user
experience to be if JAWS 13 were used:

1. <h3 class="invisible"> Section C </h3>

Jim
James Corbett
IT Developer - Analyst
ITB/Solutions/BP&A/DevCentre/Developer Tools and Horizontal Initiatives
Services
613 941-9355 | facsimile / télécopieur 613-954-9222
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Canada Revenue Agency | 875 Heron Rd Rm H4-177, Ottawa ON K1A OL8
Agence du revenu du Canada | 875 chemin Heron, ch H4-177 Ottawa ON K1A 0L8
Government of Canada | Gouvernement du Canada

"Some stories are true that never happened". -Elie Wiesel, writer, Nobel
laureate (b. 1928)

From: Corbett, James
Date: Wed, Sep 05 2012 11:48AM
Subject: Re: Your thoughts....
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi:

Many thanks for your responses yesterday.

A matter of semantics here.

If you have at the end of a transaction, the following: "Click to Agree", should it be as a link or as a button and if you are so inclined why?

Jim

James Corbett
IT Developer - Analyst
ITB/Solutions/BP&A/DevCentre/Developer Tools and Horizontal Initiatives Services
613 941-9355 | facsimile / télécopieur 613-954-9222
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Canada Revenue Agency | 875 Heron Rd Rm H4-177, Ottawa ON K1A OL8
Agence du revenu du Canada | 875 chemin Heron, ch H4-177 Ottawa ON K1A 0L8
Government of Canada | Gouvernement du Canada

"Some stories are true that never happened". -Elie Wiesel, writer, Nobel laureate (b. 1928)

From: Jukka K. Korpela
Date: Wed, Sep 05 2012 11:59AM
Subject: Re: Your thoughts....
← Previous message | Next message →

2012-09-05 20:48, Corbett, James wrote:

> A matter of semantics here.

I don't see how this relates to semantics (study of meanings).

> If you have at the end of a transaction, the following: "Click to Agree",
> should it be as a link or as a button and if you are so inclined why?

This is a matter of user interface conventions and practices. I don't
see how there can be any serious doubt about this. Links are references
to resources. Buttons trigger actions.

But there are serious questions about "Click to Agree". Why would you
refer to one possible way of using a button, as opposite to using
keyboard actions for example, and why would you capitalize the verb
"agree" in the middle of a sentence? Properly reduced to "Agree", the
next question is whether this is sufficient enough. Does the context
make it absolutely clear, even to cognitively challenged people, what
one is about to agree on?

Yucca

From: Patrick H. Lauke
Date: Wed, Sep 05 2012 12:13PM
Subject: Re: Your thoughts....
← Previous message | Next message →

On 05/09/2012 18:59, Jukka K. Korpela wrote:
> 2012-09-05 20:48, Corbett, James wrote:
>
>> A matter of semantics here.
>
> I don't see how this relates to semantics (study of meanings).

The meaning of the markup used. A button is an action, while a link is a
way to a new destination.

P
--
Patrick H. Lauke

From: Corbett, James
Date: Wed, Sep 05 2012 12:23PM
Subject: Re: Your thoughts....
← Previous message | Next message →

Thanks:

"Click" I believe is a verb hence an action, however if one agrees then he, she, it, we, you, they are then taken to the confirmation page.

So, back to you.... should it be a link or a button?

Thanks again.

Jim

From: Patrick H. Lauke
Date: Wed, Sep 05 2012 3:40PM
Subject: Re: Your thoughts....
← Previous message | Next message →

Without seeing the actual site, it sounds to me like a EULA style
agreement, which is generally marked up as a form, with the "I agree"
type button used to submit the form.

P

From: Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Date: Wed, Sep 05 2012 5:13PM
Subject: Re: Your thoughts....
← Previous message | Next message →

Ideally I would choose an "I agree" check box and a "submit" button,
but if that were not possible, I would go with "I agree" button. I
have always associated the word "click" with links, at least as a
user, and don´t like it when it is applied to buttons, though this may
be a personal preference. To me this is definitely an action and I
often look for buttons that perform actions on form, and would be a
bit frustrated if there were none. I think this should be a button for
sure, and if you can separate the "I agree" part into a check box, all
the better.

On 9/5/12, Patrick H. Lauke < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Without seeing the actual site, it sounds to me like a EULA style
> agreement, which is generally marked up as a form, with the "I agree"
> type button used to submit the form.
>
> P
>
> On 05/09/2012 19:23, Corbett, James wrote:
>> Thanks:
>>
>> "Click" I believe is a verb hence an action, however if one agrees then
>> he, she, it, we, you, they are then taken to the confirmation page.
>>
>> So, back to you.... should it be a link or a button?
>>
>> Thanks again.
>>
>> Jim
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Patrick H.
>> Lauke
>> Sent: September 5, 2012 2:14 PM
>> To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Your thoughts....
>>
>> On 05/09/2012 18:59, Jukka K. Korpela wrote:
>>> 2012-09-05 20:48, Corbett, James wrote:
>>>
>>>> A matter of semantics here.
>>>
>>> I don't see how this relates to semantics (study of meanings).
>>
>> The meaning of the markup used. A button is an action, while a link is a
>> way to a new destination.
>>
>> P
>>
>
>
> --
> Patrick H. Lauke
> > re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
> [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
>
> www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
> http://redux.deviantart.com | http://flickr.com/photos/redux/
> > twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke
> > > > >

From: Kornbrot, Diana
Date: Thu, Sep 06 2012 2:25AM
Subject: Re: Your thoughts....
← Previous message | Next message →

It seems to me that 'agree' should definitely be a button to ensure legal agreement, then 'continue' is a link'with appropriate error text if button is not checked.
To me it is semantics. The continue link with agree checked is semantically and legally different to a continue link alone
Best
Diana


On 05/09/2012 18:59, "Jukka K. Korpela" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

2012-09-05 20:48, Corbett, James wrote:

> A matter of semantics here.

I don't see how this relates to semantics (study of meanings).

> If you have at the end of a transaction, the following: "Click to Agree",
> should it be as a link or as a button and if you are so inclined why?

This is a matter of user interface conventions and practices. I don't
see how there can be any serious doubt about this. Links are references
to resources. Buttons trigger actions.

But there are serious questions about "Click to Agree". Why would you
refer to one possible way of using a button, as opposite to using
keyboard actions for example, and why would you capitalize the verb
"agree" in the middle of a sentence? Properly reduced to "Agree", the
next question is whether this is sufficient enough. Does the context
make it absolutely clear, even to cognitively challenged people, what
one is about to agree on?

Yucca


Emeritus Professor Diana Kornbrot
email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
web: http://dianakornbrot.wordpress.com/
Work
Department of Psychology
School of Life and Medical Sciences
University of Hertfordshire
College Lane, Hatfield, Hertfordshire AL10 9AB, UK
voice: +44 (0) 170 728 4626
fax: +44 (0) 170 728 5073
Home
19 Elmhurst Avenue
London N2 0LT, UK
voice: +44 (0) 208 444 2081
mobile: +44 (0) 740 318 1612
fax: +44 (0) 870 706 1445

From: Corbett, James
Date: Thu, Sep 06 2012 6:12AM
Subject: Re: Your thoughts....
← Previous message | Next message →

Patrick:

Ok, I agree with you. Would there be a WCAG 2.0 Aa criteria that specifically reference such matters?

Jim

From: Corbett, James
Date: Thu, Sep 06 2012 6:16AM
Subject: Re: Your thoughts....
← Previous message | Next message →

Diana:

I'm smiling, my agency has adopted a 180 degree opposed approach to everything that you wrote in your message with regards to links and buttons. Ah, standards are wonderful.... if one doesn't work, then pick another. <smile>

Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Kornbrot, Diana
Sent: September 6, 2012 4:26 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Your thoughts....

It seems to me that 'agree' should definitely be a button to ensure legal agreement, then 'continue' is a link'with appropriate error text if button is not checked.
To me it is semantics. The continue link with agree checked is semantically and legally different to a continue link alone
Best
Diana


On 05/09/2012 18:59, "Jukka K. Korpela" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

2012-09-05 20:48, Corbett, James wrote:

> A matter of semantics here.

I don't see how this relates to semantics (study of meanings).

> If you have at the end of a transaction, the following: "Click to Agree",
> should it be as a link or as a button and if you are so inclined why?

This is a matter of user interface conventions and practices. I don't
see how there can be any serious doubt about this. Links are references
to resources. Buttons trigger actions.

But there are serious questions about "Click to Agree". Why would you
refer to one possible way of using a button, as opposite to using
keyboard actions for example, and why would you capitalize the verb
"agree" in the middle of a sentence? Properly reduced to "Agree", the
next question is whether this is sufficient enough. Does the context
make it absolutely clear, even to cognitively challenged people, what
one is about to agree on?

Yucca


Emeritus Professor Diana Kornbrot
email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
web: http://dianakornbrot.wordpress.com/
Work
Department of Psychology
School of Life and Medical Sciences
University of Hertfordshire
College Lane, Hatfield, Hertfordshire AL10 9AB, UK
voice: +44 (0) 170 728 4626
fax: +44 (0) 170 728 5073
Home
19 Elmhurst Avenue
London N2 0LT, UK
voice: +44 (0) 208 444 2081
mobile: +44 (0) 740 318 1612
fax: +44 (0) 870 706 1445

From: Kornbrot, Diana
Date: Thu, Sep 06 2012 7:02AM
Subject: Re: Your thoughts....
← Previous message | No next message

Your agency probably has access to lawyers!
I am not a lawyer, so people probably shuld not follow my adice
Standards are wonderul1
Best
Diana



On 06/09/2012 13:16, "Corbett, James" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

Diana:

I'm smiling, my agency has adopted a 180 degree opposed approach to everything that you wrote in your message with regards to links and buttons. Ah, standards are wonderful.... if one doesn't work, then pick another. <smile>

Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Kornbrot, Diana
Sent: September 6, 2012 4:26 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Your thoughts....

It seems to me that 'agree' should definitely be a button to ensure legal agreement, then 'continue' is a link'with appropriate error text if button is not checked.
To me it is semantics. The continue link with agree checked is semantically and legally different to a continue link alone
Best
Diana


On 05/09/2012 18:59, "Jukka K. Korpela" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

2012-09-05 20:48, Corbett, James wrote:

> A matter of semantics here.

I don't see how this relates to semantics (study of meanings).

> If you have at the end of a transaction, the following: "Click to Agree",
> should it be as a link or as a button and if you are so inclined why?

This is a matter of user interface conventions and practices. I don't
see how there can be any serious doubt about this. Links are references
to resources. Buttons trigger actions.

But there are serious questions about "Click to Agree". Why would you
refer to one possible way of using a button, as opposite to using
keyboard actions for example, and why would you capitalize the verb
"agree" in the middle of a sentence? Properly reduced to "Agree", the
next question is whether this is sufficient enough. Does the context
make it absolutely clear, even to cognitively challenged people, what
one is about to agree on?

Yucca


Emeritus Professor Diana Kornbrot
email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
web: http://dianakornbrot.wordpress.com/
Work
Department of Psychology
School of Life and Medical Sciences
University of Hertfordshire
College Lane, Hatfield, Hertfordshire AL10 9AB, UK
voice: +44 (0) 170 728 4626
fax: +44 (0) 170 728 5073
Home
19 Elmhurst Avenue
London N2 0LT, UK
voice: +44 (0) 208 444 2081
mobile: +44 (0) 740 318 1612
fax: +44 (0) 870 706 1445




Emeritus Professor Diana Kornbrot
email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
web: http://dianakornbrot.wordpress.com/
Work
Department of Psychology
School of Life and Medical Sciences
University of Hertfordshire
College Lane, Hatfield, Hertfordshire AL10 9AB, UK
voice: +44 (0) 170 728 4626
fax: +44 (0) 170 728 5073
Home
19 Elmhurst Avenue
London N2 0LT, UK
voice: +44 (0) 208 444 2081
mobile: +44 (0) 740 318 1612
fax: +44 (0) 870 706 1445