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Thread: jaws adding or changing a page

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Number of posts in this thread: 9 (In chronological order)

From: Lucy Greco
Date: Mon, Oct 08 2012 10:35PM
Subject: jaws adding or changing a page
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hello:
i have been doing some web testing and have come across a very
strange behavior. if i run the page thru NVDA and voice over the page
shows an h1 in the right place and where it should be. however jaws
shows the same heading as an h2. we have checked the source code and
it is definitely a h1.

as well, on the same page jaws has turned all the lists on the page to
navigation landmarks. has any one seen this before?

the designer is using the modernizr javascript library and i suspect
this may have something to do with it but i can't tell for sure.
before you ask i can't share the link or code sorry

lucy

Lucia Greco
Web Access Analyst
IST-Campus Technology Services
University of California, Berkeley
(510) 289-6008
http://webaccess.berkeley.edu

From: Tony Olivero
Date: Mon, Oct 08 2012 10:37PM
Subject: Re: jaws adding or changing a page
← Previous message | Next message →

Lucy,

I've seen the heading behavior with modernizr before. I'm not sure what's
causing it. I do have a couple inquiries into FS though. Glad to have
confirmation that it isn't just me.

Tony

-----Original Message-----
From: Lucy Greco [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Monday, October 08, 2012 23:35
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: [WebAIM] jaws adding or changing a page

hello:
i have been doing some web testing and have come across a very
strange behavior. if i run the page thru NVDA and voice over the page
shows an h1 in the right place and where it should be. however jaws
shows the same heading as an h2. we have checked the source code and
it is definitely a h1.

as well, on the same page jaws has turned all the lists on the page to
navigation landmarks. has any one seen this before?

the designer is using the modernizr javascript library and i suspect
this may have something to do with it but i can't tell for sure.
before you ask i can't share the link or code sorry

lucy

Lucia Greco
Web Access Analyst
IST-Campus Technology Services
University of California, Berkeley
(510) 289-6008
http://webaccess.berkeley.edu

From: Lucy Greco
Date: Mon, Oct 08 2012 10:45PM
Subject: Re: jaws adding or changing a page
← Previous message | Next message →

glad this is coming out on the list maybe we can find the answers now.
i actually know that one other jaws user is seeing the same thing
with the headers. but i don't know if they are seeing the strange
landmarks. by any chance do you have a page you have found this on
that we could compare this on to see what it might be doing thanks
sorry but the page i found it on is behind a wall so big grin Lucy

On 10/8/12, Tony Olivero < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Lucy,
>
> I've seen the heading behavior with modernizr before. I'm not sure what's
> causing it. I do have a couple inquiries into FS though. Glad to have
> confirmation that it isn't just me.
>
> Tony
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lucy Greco [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
> Sent: Monday, October 08, 2012 23:35
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: [WebAIM] jaws adding or changing a page
>
> hello:
> i have been doing some web testing and have come across a very
> strange behavior. if i run the page thru NVDA and voice over the page
> shows an h1 in the right place and where it should be. however jaws
> shows the same heading as an h2. we have checked the source code and
> it is definitely a h1.
>
> as well, on the same page jaws has turned all the lists on the page to
> navigation landmarks. has any one seen this before?
>
> the designer is using the modernizr javascript library and i suspect
> this may have something to do with it but i can't tell for sure.
> before you ask i can't share the link or code sorry
>
> lucy
>
> Lucia Greco
> Web Access Analyst
> IST-Campus Technology Services
> University of California, Berkeley
> (510) 289-6008
> http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
> > > >
> > > >


--
Lucia Greco
Web Access Analyst
IST-Campus Technology Services
University of California, Berkeley
(510) 289-6008
http://webaccess.berkeley.edu

From: Jason Kiss
Date: Mon, Oct 08 2012 10:47PM
Subject: Re: jaws adding or changing a page
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Lucy,

Regarding the headings issues, is the H1 nested in an HTML5 sectioning element, e.g., <section>, <article>, <nav>, or <aside>? If so, and you are using JAWS12/13/14 in IE, that would explain it. JAWS implements (albeit incorrectly) the HTML5 outlining algorithm. This will have an effect on how heading level is reported for headings nested in sectioning elements. See http://www.accessibleculture.org/articles/2011/10/jaws-ie-and-headings-in-html5/ for more info.

Checking out http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/201103/html5_sectioning_elements_headings_and_document_outlines/ might also be of use.

Hope this helps,

Jason


On 9/10/2012, at 5:35 PM, Lucy Greco < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> hello:
> i have been doing some web testing and have come across a very
> strange behavior. if i run the page thru NVDA and voice over the page
> shows an h1 in the right place and where it should be. however jaws
> shows the same heading as an h2. we have checked the source code and
> it is definitely a h1.
>
> as well, on the same page jaws has turned all the lists on the page to
> navigation landmarks. has any one seen this before?
>
> the designer is using the modernizr javascript library and i suspect
> this may have something to do with it but i can't tell for sure.
> before you ask i can't share the link or code sorry
>
> lucy
>
> Lucia Greco
> Web Access Analyst
> IST-Campus Technology Services
> University of California, Berkeley
> (510) 289-6008
> http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
> > >

From: Tony Olivero
Date: Mon, Oct 08 2012 10:47PM
Subject: Re: jaws adding or changing a page
← Previous message | Next message →

I'll see if I can find one that isn't experiencing the same "behind the
wall" issue you have :)

-----Original Message-----
From: Lucy Greco [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Monday, October 08, 2012 23:46
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] jaws adding or changing a page

glad this is coming out on the list maybe we can find the answers now.
i actually know that one other jaws user is seeing the same thing
with the headers. but i don't know if they are seeing the strange
landmarks. by any chance do you have a page you have found this on
that we could compare this on to see what it might be doing thanks
sorry but the page i found it on is behind a wall so big grin Lucy

On 10/8/12, Tony Olivero < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Lucy,
>
> I've seen the heading behavior with modernizr before. I'm not sure what's
> causing it. I do have a couple inquiries into FS though. Glad to have
> confirmation that it isn't just me.
>
> Tony
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lucy Greco [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
> Sent: Monday, October 08, 2012 23:35
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: [WebAIM] jaws adding or changing a page
>
> hello:
> i have been doing some web testing and have come across a very
> strange behavior. if i run the page thru NVDA and voice over the page
> shows an h1 in the right place and where it should be. however jaws
> shows the same heading as an h2. we have checked the source code and
> it is definitely a h1.
>
> as well, on the same page jaws has turned all the lists on the page to
> navigation landmarks. has any one seen this before?
>
> the designer is using the modernizr javascript library and i suspect
> this may have something to do with it but i can't tell for sure.
> before you ask i can't share the link or code sorry
>
> lucy
>
> Lucia Greco
> Web Access Analyst
> IST-Campus Technology Services
> University of California, Berkeley
> (510) 289-6008
> http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
> > > >
> > > >


--
Lucia Greco
Web Access Analyst
IST-Campus Technology Services
University of California, Berkeley
(510) 289-6008
http://webaccess.berkeley.edu

From: Ryan E. Benson
Date: Mon, Oct 08 2012 11:46PM
Subject: Re: jaws adding or changing a page
← Previous message | Next message →

Thanks for the links Jason. While I understand what the two articles
are saying, my biggest concern is trying to explain this to non-savvy
people. My first impression is if W3C is advocating using h1's all
over, why didn't they just get rid of H1-6, and just make a heading
element? There would be the draw back of when would it be an h3 versus
an h2, which ultimately would lead to section-itous vs div-itous.

--
Ryan E. Benson


On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 12:47 AM, Jason Kiss < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Hi Lucy,
>
> Regarding the headings issues, is the H1 nested in an HTML5 sectioning element, e.g., <section>, <article>, <nav>, or <aside>? If so, and you are using JAWS12/13/14 in IE, that would explain it. JAWS implements (albeit incorrectly) the HTML5 outlining algorithm. This will have an effect on how heading level is reported for headings nested in sectioning elements. See http://www.accessibleculture.org/articles/2011/10/jaws-ie-and-headings-in-html5/ for more info.
>
> Checking out http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/201103/html5_sectioning_elements_headings_and_document_outlines/ might also be of use.
>
> Hope this helps,
>
> Jason
>
>
> On 9/10/2012, at 5:35 PM, Lucy Greco < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
>> hello:
>> i have been doing some web testing and have come across a very
>> strange behavior. if i run the page thru NVDA and voice over the page
>> shows an h1 in the right place and where it should be. however jaws
>> shows the same heading as an h2. we have checked the source code and
>> it is definitely a h1.
>>
>> as well, on the same page jaws has turned all the lists on the page to
>> navigation landmarks. has any one seen this before?
>>
>> the designer is using the modernizr javascript library and i suspect
>> this may have something to do with it but i can't tell for sure.
>> before you ask i can't share the link or code sorry
>>
>> lucy
>>
>> Lucia Greco
>> Web Access Analyst
>> IST-Campus Technology Services
>> University of California, Berkeley
>> (510) 289-6008
>> http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
>> >> >> >
> > >

From: Jason Kiss
Date: Tue, Oct 09 2012 12:05AM
Subject: Re: jaws adding or changing a page
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Ryan,

I agree the new outline algorithm is complicated. This, in part at least, is why it is listed as one of the at-risk items for inclusion in the HTML5 spec: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/HTML5.0AtRiskFeatures

H1-H6 have been retained for backwards compatibility.

If one wants to use sectioning elements, the best advice, I think, is to continue using H1-H6 as appropriate given the content's hierarchy, while taking extra care with the use of sectioning elements, e.g., not using <section> for wrapping the page's main content. JAWS will still mess up how it reports the level of other headings in sectioning elements, but this is a bug that Freedom Scientific needs to address as a priority. The only other option would be to not use the sectioning elements, which may be a less arduous accommodation where <section> and <article> are concerned, but <nav> and <aside> come with some useful semantics already implemented by some browsers and screen readers. It comes down to what one is willing to do or forego when faced with nasty bugs in user agents.

Jason


On 9/10/2012, at 6:46 PM, "Ryan E. Benson" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Thanks for the links Jason. While I understand what the two articles
> are saying, my biggest concern is trying to explain this to non-savvy
> people. My first impression is if W3C is advocating using h1's all
> over, why didn't they just get rid of H1-6, and just make a heading
> element? There would be the draw back of when would it be an h3 versus
> an h2, which ultimately would lead to section-itous vs div-itous.
>
> --
> Ryan E. Benson
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 12:47 AM, Jason Kiss < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>> Hi Lucy,
>>
>> Regarding the headings issues, is the H1 nested in an HTML5 sectioning element, e.g., <section>, <article>, <nav>, or <aside>? If so, and you are using JAWS12/13/14 in IE, that would explain it. JAWS implements (albeit incorrectly) the HTML5 outlining algorithm. This will have an effect on how heading level is reported for headings nested in sectioning elements. See http://www.accessibleculture.org/articles/2011/10/jaws-ie-and-headings-in-html5/ for more info.
>>
>> Checking out http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/201103/html5_sectioning_elements_headings_and_document_outlines/ might also be of use.
>>
>> Hope this helps,
>>
>> Jason
>>
>>
>> On 9/10/2012, at 5:35 PM, Lucy Greco < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>>
>>> hello:
>>> i have been doing some web testing and have come across a very
>>> strange behavior. if i run the page thru NVDA and voice over the page
>>> shows an h1 in the right place and where it should be. however jaws
>>> shows the same heading as an h2. we have checked the source code and
>>> it is definitely a h1.
>>>
>>> as well, on the same page jaws has turned all the lists on the page to
>>> navigation landmarks. has any one seen this before?
>>>
>>> the designer is using the modernizr javascript library and i suspect
>>> this may have something to do with it but i can't tell for sure.
>>> before you ask i can't share the link or code sorry
>>>
>>> lucy
>>>
>>> Lucia Greco
>>> Web Access Analyst
>>> IST-Campus Technology Services
>>> University of California, Berkeley
>>> (510) 289-6008
>>> http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
>>> >>> >>> >>
>> >> >> > > >

From: Ryan E. Benson
Date: Thu, Oct 11 2012 3:11PM
Subject: Re: jaws adding or changing a page
← Previous message | Next message →

Thanks for the information.

--
Ryan E. Benson


On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 2:05 AM, Jason Kiss < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Hi Ryan,
>
> I agree the new outline algorithm is complicated. This, in part at least, is why it is listed as one of the at-risk items for inclusion in the HTML5 spec: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/HTML5.0AtRiskFeatures
>
> H1-H6 have been retained for backwards compatibility.
>
> If one wants to use sectioning elements, the best advice, I think, is to continue using H1-H6 as appropriate given the content's hierarchy, while taking extra care with the use of sectioning elements, e.g., not using <section> for wrapping the page's main content. JAWS will still mess up how it reports the level of other headings in sectioning elements, but this is a bug that Freedom Scientific needs to address as a priority. The only other option would be to not use the sectioning elements, which may be a less arduous accommodation where <section> and <article> are concerned, but <nav> and <aside> come with some useful semantics already implemented by some browsers and screen readers. It comes down to what one is willing to do or forego when faced with nasty bugs in user agents.
>
> Jason
>
>
> On 9/10/2012, at 6:46 PM, "Ryan E. Benson" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
>> Thanks for the links Jason. While I understand what the two articles
>> are saying, my biggest concern is trying to explain this to non-savvy
>> people. My first impression is if W3C is advocating using h1's all
>> over, why didn't they just get rid of H1-6, and just make a heading
>> element? There would be the draw back of when would it be an h3 versus
>> an h2, which ultimately would lead to section-itous vs div-itous.
>>
>> --
>> Ryan E. Benson
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 12:47 AM, Jason Kiss < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>>> Hi Lucy,
>>>
>>> Regarding the headings issues, is the H1 nested in an HTML5 sectioning element, e.g., <section>, <article>, <nav>, or <aside>? If so, and you are using JAWS12/13/14 in IE, that would explain it. JAWS implements (albeit incorrectly) the HTML5 outlining algorithm. This will have an effect on how heading level is reported for headings nested in sectioning elements. See http://www.accessibleculture.org/articles/2011/10/jaws-ie-and-headings-in-html5/ for more info.
>>>
>>> Checking out http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/201103/html5_sectioning_elements_headings_and_document_outlines/ might also be of use.
>>>
>>> Hope this helps,
>>>
>>> Jason
>>>
>>>
>>> On 9/10/2012, at 5:35 PM, Lucy Greco < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>>>
>>>> hello:
>>>> i have been doing some web testing and have come across a very
>>>> strange behavior. if i run the page thru NVDA and voice over the page
>>>> shows an h1 in the right place and where it should be. however jaws
>>>> shows the same heading as an h2. we have checked the source code and
>>>> it is definitely a h1.
>>>>
>>>> as well, on the same page jaws has turned all the lists on the page to
>>>> navigation landmarks. has any one seen this before?
>>>>
>>>> the designer is using the modernizr javascript library and i suspect
>>>> this may have something to do with it but i can't tell for sure.
>>>> before you ask i can't share the link or code sorry
>>>>
>>>> lucy
>>>>
>>>> Lucia Greco
>>>> Web Access Analyst
>>>> IST-Campus Technology Services
>>>> University of California, Berkeley
>>>> (510) 289-6008
>>>> http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>
>>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >
> > >

From: Lucy Greco
Date: Thu, Oct 11 2012 3:40PM
Subject: Re: jaws adding or changing a page
← Previous message | No next message

thanks for all this grate information. has any one filed this as a bug
with fs.? as well the second part of my problem i think is more
Critical have any of you ever seen the ARIA that is not there being
created by jaws i really think its bad for a screen reader to add
elements that are not there.

On 10/11/12, Ryan E. Benson < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Thanks for the information.
>
> --
> Ryan E. Benson
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 2:05 AM, Jason Kiss < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> wrote:
>> Hi Ryan,
>>
>> I agree the new outline algorithm is complicated. This, in part at least,
>> is why it is listed as one of the at-risk items for inclusion in the HTML5
>> spec: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/HTML5.0AtRiskFeatures
>>
>> H1-H6 have been retained for backwards compatibility.
>>
>> If one wants to use sectioning elements, the best advice, I think, is to
>> continue using H1-H6 as appropriate given the content's hierarchy, while
>> taking extra care with the use of sectioning elements, e.g., not using
>> <section> for wrapping the page's main content. JAWS will still mess up
>> how it reports the level of other headings in sectioning elements, but
>> this is a bug that Freedom Scientific needs to address as a priority. The
>> only other option would be to not use the sectioning elements, which may
>> be a less arduous accommodation where <section> and <article> are
>> concerned, but <nav> and <aside> come with some useful semantics already
>> implemented by some browsers and screen readers. It comes down to what one
>> is willing to do or forego when faced with nasty bugs in user agents.
>>
>> Jason
>>
>>
>> On 9/10/2012, at 6:46 PM, "Ryan E. Benson" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks for the links Jason. While I understand what the two articles
>>> are saying, my biggest concern is trying to explain this to non-savvy
>>> people. My first impression is if W3C is advocating using h1's all
>>> over, why didn't they just get rid of H1-6, and just make a heading
>>> element? There would be the draw back of when would it be an h3 versus
>>> an h2, which ultimately would lead to section-itous vs div-itous.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Ryan E. Benson
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 12:47 AM, Jason Kiss < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>>> wrote:
>>>> Hi Lucy,
>>>>
>>>> Regarding the headings issues, is the H1 nested in an HTML5 sectioning
>>>> element, e.g., <section>, <article>, <nav>, or <aside>? If so, and you
>>>> are using JAWS12/13/14 in IE, that would explain it. JAWS implements
>>>> (albeit incorrectly) the HTML5 outlining algorithm. This will have an
>>>> effect on how heading level is reported for headings nested in
>>>> sectioning elements. See
>>>> http://www.accessibleculture.org/articles/2011/10/jaws-ie-and-headings-in-html5/
>>>> for more info.
>>>>
>>>> Checking out
>>>> http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/201103/html5_sectioning_elements_headings_and_document_outlines/
>>>> might also be of use.
>>>>
>>>> Hope this helps,
>>>>
>>>> Jason
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 9/10/2012, at 5:35 PM, Lucy Greco < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> hello:
>>>>> i have been doing some web testing and have come across a very
>>>>> strange behavior. if i run the page thru NVDA and voice over the page
>>>>> shows an h1 in the right place and where it should be. however jaws
>>>>> shows the same heading as an h2. we have checked the source code and
>>>>> it is definitely a h1.
>>>>>
>>>>> as well, on the same page jaws has turned all the lists on the page to
>>>>> navigation landmarks. has any one seen this before?
>>>>>
>>>>> the designer is using the modernizr javascript library and i suspect
>>>>> this may have something to do with it but i can't tell for sure.
>>>>> before you ask i can't share the link or code sorry
>>>>>
>>>>> lucy
>>>>>
>>>>> Lucia Greco
>>>>> Web Access Analyst
>>>>> IST-Campus Technology Services
>>>>> University of California, Berkeley
>>>>> (510) 289-6008
>>>>> http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>
>> >> >> > > > >


--
Lucia Greco
Web Access Analyst
IST-Campus Technology Services
University of California, Berkeley
(510) 289-6008
http://webaccess.berkeley.edu