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Thread: Blank pages in PDFs

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Number of posts in this thread: 14 (In chronological order)

From: Chagnon | PubCom
Date: Thu, Apr 04 2013 1:19PM
Subject: Blank pages in PDFs
No previous message | Next message →

We're processing some PDFs for a government client and the books have blank
pages between chapters. These are to force new chapters to start on
right-hand pages in the printed version.

Is there any guideline or "best practice" for identifying these blank pages
to blind readers?

Or is this a non-issue?

-Bevi Chagnon

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

www.PubCom.com <http://www.pubcom.com/>; - Trainers, Consultants, Designers,
Developers.

Print, Web, Acrobat, XML, eBooks, and U.S. Federal Section 508
Accessibility.

New schedule for classes and workshops coming in 2013.

From: Duff Johnson
Date: Thu, Apr 04 2013 2:14PM
Subject: Re: Blank pages in PDFs
← Previous message | Next message →

Bevi,

I'm not aware of guidelines on this specific point. Zero content means zero content.

PDF/UA is silent on this question. Fully blank (zero content) pages exist from an AT point of view only in the sense that they cause the PDF to be longer by a page. When such a page is displayed a user could query the PageLabel to find out (for example) that the blank page was the 4th of 18. This is notionally useful information - at least - it's equivalent information to that which is available to other users.

I hope that helps.

Duff.

On Apr 4, 2013, at 3:19 PM, Chagnon | PubCom < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> We're processing some PDFs for a government client and the books have blank
> pages between chapters. These are to force new chapters to start on
> right-hand pages in the printed version.
>
> Is there any guideline or "best practice" for identifying these blank pages
> to blind readers?
>
> Or is this a non-issue?
>
> -Bevi Chagnon

From: Chagnon | PubCom
Date: Thu, Apr 04 2013 2:33PM
Subject: Re: Blank pages in PDFs
← Previous message | Next message →

What prompted my question was that when testing PDFs with blind and
low-vision users, some page up/down by page. If I remember correctly, these
were probably low-vision users.

Navigating to, say, page 4 and not finding any text on it, would that be an
impairment to the user?
Would it cause confusion if the user's AT couldn't find any content on that
page?

-Bevi
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
www.PubCom.com - Trainers, Consultants, Designers, Developers.
Print, Web, Acrobat, XML, eBooks, and U.S. Federal Section 508
Accessibility.
New schedule for classes and workshops coming in 2013.

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Duff Johnson

Bevi,
I'm not aware of guidelines on this specific point. Zero content means zero
content.
PDF/UA is silent on this question. Fully blank (zero content) pages exist
from an AT point of view only in the sense that they cause the PDF to be
longer by a page. When such a page is displayed a user could query the
PageLabel to find out (for example) that the blank page was the 4th of 18.
This is notionally useful information - at least - it's equivalent
information to that which is available to other users.

On Apr 4, 2013, at 3:19 PM, Chagnon | PubCom < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> We're processing some PDFs for a government client and the books have
> blank pages between chapters. These are to force new chapters to start
> on right-hand pages in the printed version.
>
> Is there any guideline or "best practice" for identifying these blank
> pages to blind readers?

From: Duff Johnson
Date: Thu, Apr 04 2013 2:48PM
Subject: Re: Blank pages in PDFs
← Previous message | Next message →

On Apr 4, 2013, at 4:33 PM, "Chagnon | PubCom" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> What prompted my question was that when testing PDFs with blind and
> low-vision users, some page up/down by page. If I remember correctly, these
> were probably low-vision users.
>
> Navigating to, say, page 4 and not finding any text on it, would that be an
> impairment to the user?
> Would it cause confusion if the user's AT couldn't find any content on that
> page?

It could, but that's a fine point. After all, the page could also "appear" blank due to untagged content or some other evil.

However - sure - if fully blank pages are a bad idea such such pages should instead include the (tagged) text:

"This page intentionally left blank." or equivalent.

Duff.

From: Jennifer Sutton
Date: Thu, Apr 04 2013 3:15PM
Subject: Re: Blank pages in PDFs
← Previous message | Next message →

In my view, blank pages should be left in. What if I'm using this
book for research, and I need to cite page numbers?

Sometimes, I think that catering for AT can be taken to extremes. AT
users should know how to read these files and expect potentially
blank pages, just as these exist in printed, brailled, or other
electronic books. If you have low vision users who are initially
confused, then I would hope they have the AT strategies to unconfuse
themselves by paging down to see what comes next.

Jennifer

At 01:33 PM 4/4/2013, you wrote:
>What prompted my question was that when testing PDFs with blind and
>low-vision users, some page up/down by page. If I remember correctly, these
>were probably low-vision users.
>
>Navigating to, say, page 4 and not finding any text on it, would that be an
>impairment to the user?
>Would it cause confusion if the user's AT couldn't find any content on that
>page?
>
>-Bevi
>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>www.PubCom.com - Trainers, Consultants, Designers, Developers.
>Print, Web, Acrobat, XML, eBooks, and U.S. Federal Section 508
>Accessibility.
>New schedule for classes and workshops coming in 2013.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Duff Johnson
>
>Bevi,
>I'm not aware of guidelines on this specific point. Zero content means zero
>content.
>PDF/UA is silent on this question. Fully blank (zero content) pages exist
>from an AT point of view only in the sense that they cause the PDF to be
>longer by a page. When such a page is displayed a user could query the
>PageLabel to find out (for example) that the blank page was the 4th of 18.
>This is notionally useful information - at least - it's equivalent
>information to that which is available to other users.
>
>On Apr 4, 2013, at 3:19 PM, Chagnon | PubCom < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> > We're processing some PDFs for a government client and the books have
> > blank pages between chapters. These are to force new chapters to start
> > on right-hand pages in the printed version.
> >
> > Is there any guideline or "best practice" for identifying these blank
> > pages to blind readers?
>
>>>

From: Len Burns
Date: Thu, Apr 04 2013 3:52PM
Subject: Re: Blank pages in PDFs
← Previous message | Next message →

I also think it is essential to include the blank pages to maintain the
integrity of the document. I agree with Doug that the page should contain
text indicating that the page was blank in the original, and perhaps left or
right if it was the left or right page. The reason this is important is
that AT varies widely in its rendering of PDFs. If there is not a
placeholder, the result could be difficult to interpret, even by an
experienced user.

-Len

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Jennifer Sutton
Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2013 2:15 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Blank pages in PDFs

In my view, blank pages should be left in. What if I'm using this
book for research, and I need to cite page numbers?

Sometimes, I think that catering for AT can be taken to extremes. AT
users should know how to read these files and expect potentially
blank pages, just as these exist in printed, brailled, or other
electronic books. If you have low vision users who are initially
confused, then I would hope they have the AT strategies to unconfuse
themselves by paging down to see what comes next.

Jennifer

At 01:33 PM 4/4/2013, you wrote:
>What prompted my question was that when testing PDFs with blind and
>low-vision users, some page up/down by page. If I remember correctly, these
>were probably low-vision users.
>
>Navigating to, say, page 4 and not finding any text on it, would that be an
>impairment to the user?
>Would it cause confusion if the user's AT couldn't find any content on that
>page?
>
>-Bevi
>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>www.PubCom.com - Trainers, Consultants, Designers, Developers.
>Print, Web, Acrobat, XML, eBooks, and U.S. Federal Section 508
>Accessibility.
>New schedule for classes and workshops coming in 2013.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Duff Johnson
>
>Bevi,
>I'm not aware of guidelines on this specific point. Zero content means zero
>content.
>PDF/UA is silent on this question. Fully blank (zero content) pages exist
>from an AT point of view only in the sense that they cause the PDF to be
>longer by a page. When such a page is displayed a user could query the
>PageLabel to find out (for example) that the blank page was the 4th of 18.
>This is notionally useful information - at least - it's equivalent
>information to that which is available to other users.
>
>On Apr 4, 2013, at 3:19 PM, Chagnon | PubCom < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> > We're processing some PDFs for a government client and the books have
> > blank pages between chapters. These are to force new chapters to start
> > on right-hand pages in the printed version.
> >
> > Is there any guideline or "best practice" for identifying these blank
> > pages to blind readers?
>
>>>

From: Hoger, Jodie
Date: Thu, Apr 04 2013 3:55PM
Subject: Re: Blank pages in PDFs
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi List,
I teach students in vocational education who are blind or vision impaired as well as being a screen reader user myself and it is really important that the blank pages are included to ensure continuity of page numbering for referencing. I teach all of my stude3nts using various forms of access tech to scroll beyond the blank page to ensure they are not missing or overlooking further text.
Thanks,
Jo

Jodie Hoger
Teacher Consultant (Vision), Equity Services TAFE NSW - Illawarra Institute Building L1.14,  60 Bienda St, Bomaderry, NSW, 2541
VOIP 54865
P 02 4421 9865
M 0437 035 042
F 02 4421 9804 
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
www.illawarra.tafensw.edu.au
Proverb
Give a person a fish and they will have food for a day. Teach a person to fish and they will have food for life.


-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Jennifer Sutton
Sent: Friday, 5 April 2013 8:15 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Blank pages in PDFs

In my view, blank pages should be left in. What if I'm using this book for research, and I need to cite page numbers?

Sometimes, I think that catering for AT can be taken to extremes. AT users should know how to read these files and expect potentially blank pages, just as these exist in printed, brailled, or other electronic books. If you have low vision users who are initially confused, then I would hope they have the AT strategies to unconfuse themselves by paging down to see what comes next.

Jennifer

At 01:33 PM 4/4/2013, you wrote:
>What prompted my question was that when testing PDFs with blind and
>low-vision users, some page up/down by page. If I remember correctly,
>these were probably low-vision users.
>
>Navigating to, say, page 4 and not finding any text on it, would that
>be an impairment to the user?
>Would it cause confusion if the user's AT couldn't find any content on
>that page?
>
>-Bevi
>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>- -
>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>www.PubCom.com - Trainers, Consultants, Designers, Developers.
>Print, Web, Acrobat, XML, eBooks, and U.S. Federal Section 508
>Accessibility.
>New schedule for classes and workshops coming in 2013.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Duff Johnson
>
>Bevi,
>I'm not aware of guidelines on this specific point. Zero content means
>zero content.
>PDF/UA is silent on this question. Fully blank (zero content) pages
>exist from an AT point of view only in the sense that they cause the
>PDF to be longer by a page. When such a page is displayed a user could
>query the PageLabel to find out (for example) that the blank page was the 4th of 18.
>This is notionally useful information - at least - it's equivalent
>information to that which is available to other users.
>
>On Apr 4, 2013, at 3:19 PM, Chagnon | PubCom < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> > We're processing some PDFs for a government client and the books
> > have blank pages between chapters. These are to force new chapters
> > to start on right-hand pages in the printed version.
> >
> > Is there any guideline or "best practice" for identifying these
> > blank pages to blind readers?
>
>>>messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

**********************************************************************
This message is intended for the addressee named and may contain
privileged information or confidential information or both. If you
are not the intended recipient please delete it and notify the sender.
**********************************************************************

From: Hoger, Jodie
Date: Thu, Apr 04 2013 3:56PM
Subject: Re: Blank pages in PDFs
← Previous message | Next message →

Len, thanks for your suggestions. Those indicators would certainly assist many access tech users to put the blank page into perspective.
Thanks,
Jo

Jodie Hoger
Teacher Consultant (Vision), Equity Services TAFE NSW - Illawarra Institute Building L1.14,  60 Bienda St, Bomaderry, NSW, 2541
VOIP 54865
P 02 4421 9865
M 0437 035 042
F 02 4421 9804 
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
www.illawarra.tafensw.edu.au
Proverb
Give a person a fish and they will have food for a day. Teach a person to fish and they will have food for life.


-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Len Burns
Sent: Friday, 5 April 2013 8:53 AM
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Blank pages in PDFs

I also think it is essential to include the blank pages to maintain the integrity of the document. I agree with Doug that the page should contain text indicating that the page was blank in the original, and perhaps left or right if it was the left or right page. The reason this is important is that AT varies widely in its rendering of PDFs. If there is not a placeholder, the result could be difficult to interpret, even by an experienced user.

-Len

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Jennifer Sutton
Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2013 2:15 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Blank pages in PDFs

In my view, blank pages should be left in. What if I'm using this book for research, and I need to cite page numbers?

Sometimes, I think that catering for AT can be taken to extremes. AT users should know how to read these files and expect potentially blank pages, just as these exist in printed, brailled, or other electronic books. If you have low vision users who are initially confused, then I would hope they have the AT strategies to unconfuse themselves by paging down to see what comes next.

Jennifer

At 01:33 PM 4/4/2013, you wrote:
>What prompted my question was that when testing PDFs with blind and
>low-vision users, some page up/down by page. If I remember correctly,
>these were probably low-vision users.
>
>Navigating to, say, page 4 and not finding any text on it, would that
>be an impairment to the user?
>Would it cause confusion if the user's AT couldn't find any content on
>that page?
>
>-Bevi
>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>- -
>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>www.PubCom.com - Trainers, Consultants, Designers, Developers.
>Print, Web, Acrobat, XML, eBooks, and U.S. Federal Section 508
>Accessibility.
>New schedule for classes and workshops coming in 2013.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Duff Johnson
>
>Bevi,
>I'm not aware of guidelines on this specific point. Zero content means
>zero content.
>PDF/UA is silent on this question. Fully blank (zero content) pages
>exist from an AT point of view only in the sense that they cause the
>PDF to be longer by a page. When such a page is displayed a user could
>query the PageLabel to find out (for example) that the blank page was the 4th of 18.
>This is notionally useful information - at least - it's equivalent
>information to that which is available to other users.
>
>On Apr 4, 2013, at 3:19 PM, Chagnon | PubCom < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> > We're processing some PDFs for a government client and the books
> > have blank pages between chapters. These are to force new chapters
> > to start on right-hand pages in the printed version.
> >
> > Is there any guideline or "best practice" for identifying these
> > blank pages to blind readers?
>
>>>messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

**********************************************************************
This message is intended for the addressee named and may contain
privileged information or confidential information or both. If you
are not the intended recipient please delete it and notify the sender.
**********************************************************************

From: Karlen Communications
Date: Fri, Apr 05 2013 4:25AM
Subject: Re: Blank pages in PDFs
← Previous message | Next message →

I think of blank pages as decorative images and really don't want to spend
time hearing "page X, blank page" over and over again. I should be able to
use Bookmarks, headings and a linked Table of Contents to get to content and
use Ctrl + Shift + N in Acrobat to get to a specific page.

I appreciate that someone tagging a PDF has thought about this and decided
to put blank pages as Artifacts.

I do occasionally use screen magnification and having some vision is not a
good enough argument to tag decorative content - which is what the insertion
of a blank page is.

Cheers, Karen
-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Jennifer Sutton
Sent: Thursday, April 4, 2013 5:15 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Blank pages in PDFs

In my view, blank pages should be left in. What if I'm using this book for
research, and I need to cite page numbers?

Sometimes, I think that catering for AT can be taken to extremes. AT users
should know how to read these files and expect potentially blank pages, just
as these exist in printed, brailled, or other electronic books. If you have
low vision users who are initially confused, then I would hope they have the
AT strategies to unconfuse themselves by paging down to see what comes next.

Jennifer

At 01:33 PM 4/4/2013, you wrote:
>What prompted my question was that when testing PDFs with blind and
>low-vision users, some page up/down by page. If I remember correctly,
>these were probably low-vision users.
>
>Navigating to, say, page 4 and not finding any text on it, would that
>be an impairment to the user?
>Would it cause confusion if the user's AT couldn't find any content on
>that page?
>
>-Bevi
>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>- -
>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>www.PubCom.com - Trainers, Consultants, Designers, Developers.
>Print, Web, Acrobat, XML, eBooks, and U.S. Federal Section 508
>Accessibility.
>New schedule for classes and workshops coming in 2013.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Duff Johnson
>
>Bevi,
>I'm not aware of guidelines on this specific point. Zero content means
>zero content.
>PDF/UA is silent on this question. Fully blank (zero content) pages
>exist from an AT point of view only in the sense that they cause the
>PDF to be longer by a page. When such a page is displayed a user could
>query the PageLabel to find out (for example) that the blank page was the
4th of 18.
>This is notionally useful information - at least - it's equivalent
>information to that which is available to other users.
>
>On Apr 4, 2013, at 3:19 PM, Chagnon | PubCom < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> > We're processing some PDFs for a government client and the books
> > have blank pages between chapters. These are to force new chapters
> > to start on right-hand pages in the printed version.
> >
> > Is there any guideline or "best practice" for identifying these
> > blank pages to blind readers?
>
>>>messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

From: Pratik Patel
Date: Fri, Apr 05 2013 4:33AM
Subject: Re: Blank pages in PDFs
← Previous message | Next message →

Whenever possible, I advocate for less verbiage. In this case, the
individual looking at the PDF file has the ability (or should have the
ability) to query the metadata from Adobe Reader. This being the case, I do
not recommend adding additional verbiage that indicates that the page is
blank.

Pratik Patel
Founder and CEO, EZFire
T: 718-928-5529
M: 718-249-7019
E: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = (or = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = )
Follow me on Twitter: @ppatel
Follow me on LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/pub/pratik-patel/9/985/882
Skype: Patel.pratik

From: Jonathan Metz
Date: Tue, Apr 16 2013 6:52AM
Subject: Re: Blank pages in PDFs
← Previous message | Next message →

I'm just curious, but couldn't the issue of blank pages and page numbering be solved by renumbering the pages in Acrobat? If you remove the blank page 4 so it skips from page 3 to 5, why not just start a new section starting at page 5?

Thanks,
Jonathan Metz

From: Pratik Patel < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >>
Reply-To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >>
Date: Friday, April 5, 2013 6:33 AM
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >>
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Blank pages in PDFs

Whenever possible, I advocate for less verbiage. In this case, the
individual looking at the PDF file has the ability (or should have the
ability) to query the metadata from Adobe Reader. This being the case, I do
not recommend adding additional verbiage that indicates that the page is
blank.

Pratik Patel
Founder and CEO, EZFire
T: 718-928-5529
M: 718-249-7019
E: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > (or = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >)
Follow me on Twitter: @ppatel
Follow me on LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/pub/pratik-patel/9/985/882
Skype: Patel.pratik
From: Karlen Communications < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >>
Reply-To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >>
Date: Friday, April 5, 2013 6:25 AM
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >>
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Blank pages in PDFs

I think of blank pages as decorative images and really don't want to spend
time hearing "page X, blank page" over and over again. I should be able to
use Bookmarks, headings and a linked Table of Contents to get to content and
use Ctrl + Shift + N in Acrobat to get to a specific page.

I appreciate that someone tagging a PDF has thought about this and decided
to put blank pages as Artifacts.

I do occasionally use screen magnification and having some vision is not a
good enough argument to tag decorative content - which is what the insertion
of a blank page is.

Cheers, Karen
-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Jennifer Sutton
Sent: Thursday, April 4, 2013 5:15 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Blank pages in PDFs

In my view, blank pages should be left in. What if I'm using this book for
research, and I need to cite page numbers?

Sometimes, I think that catering for AT can be taken to extremes. AT users
should know how to read these files and expect potentially blank pages, just
as these exist in printed, brailled, or other electronic books. If you have
low vision users who are initially confused, then I would hope they have the
AT strategies to unconfuse themselves by paging down to see what comes next.

Jennifer

At 01:33 PM 4/4/2013, you wrote:
What prompted my question was that when testing PDFs with blind and
low-vision users, some page up/down by page. If I remember correctly,
these were probably low-vision users.

Navigating to, say, page 4 and not finding any text on it, would that
be an impairment to the user?
Would it cause confusion if the user's AT couldn't find any content on
that page?

-Bevi
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
www.PubCom.com - Trainers, Consultants, Designers, Developers.
Print, Web, Acrobat, XML, eBooks, and U.S. Federal Section 508
Accessibility.
New schedule for classes and workshops coming in 2013.

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Duff Johnson

Bevi,
I'm not aware of guidelines on this specific point. Zero content means
zero content.
PDF/UA is silent on this question. Fully blank (zero content) pages
exist from an AT point of view only in the sense that they cause the
PDF to be longer by a page. When such a page is displayed a user could
query the PageLabel to find out (for example) that the blank page was the
4th of 18.
This is notionally useful information - at least - it's equivalent
information to that which is available to other users.

On Apr 4, 2013, at 3:19 PM, Chagnon | PubCom < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >> wrote:
> We're processing some PDFs for a government client and the books
> have blank pages between chapters. These are to force new chapters
> to start on right-hand pages in the printed version.
>
> Is there any guideline or "best practice" for identifying these
> blank pages to blind readers?

messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >

messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >

From: Jonathan C. Cohn
Date: Tue, Apr 16 2013 7:14AM
Subject: Re: Blank pages in PDFs
← Previous message | Next message →

How would that work with duplex printing.

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 16, 2013, at 8:52 AM, Jonathan Metz < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> I'm just curious, but couldn't the issue of blank pages and page numbering be solved by renumbering the pages in Acrobat? If you remove the blank page 4 so it skips from page 3 to 5, why not just start a new section starting at page 5?
>
> Thanks,
> Jonathan Metz
>
> From: Pratik Patel < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >>
> Reply-To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >>
> Date: Friday, April 5, 2013 6:33 AM
> To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >>
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Blank pages in PDFs
>
> Whenever possible, I advocate for less verbiage. In this case, the
> individual looking at the PDF file has the ability (or should have the
> ability) to query the metadata from Adobe Reader. This being the case, I do
> not recommend adding additional verbiage that indicates that the page is
> blank.
>
> Pratik Patel
> Founder and CEO, EZFire
> T: 718-928-5529
> M: 718-249-7019
> E: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > (or = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >)
> Follow me on Twitter: @ppatel
> Follow me on LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/pub/pratik-patel/9/985/882
> Skype: Patel.pratik
> From: Karlen Communications < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >>
> Reply-To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >>
> Date: Friday, April 5, 2013 6:25 AM
> To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >>
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Blank pages in PDFs
>
> I think of blank pages as decorative images and really don't want to spend
> time hearing "page X, blank page" over and over again. I should be able to
> use Bookmarks, headings and a linked Table of Contents to get to content and
> use Ctrl + Shift + N in Acrobat to get to a specific page.
>
> I appreciate that someone tagging a PDF has thought about this and decided
> to put blank pages as Artifacts.
>
> I do occasionally use screen magnification and having some vision is not a
> good enough argument to tag decorative content - which is what the insertion
> of a blank page is.
>
> Cheers, Karen
> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Jennifer Sutton
> Sent: Thursday, April 4, 2013 5:15 PM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Blank pages in PDFs
>
> In my view, blank pages should be left in. What if I'm using this book for
> research, and I need to cite page numbers?
>
> Sometimes, I think that catering for AT can be taken to extremes. AT users
> should know how to read these files and expect potentially blank pages, just
> as these exist in printed, brailled, or other electronic books. If you have
> low vision users who are initially confused, then I would hope they have the
> AT strategies to unconfuse themselves by paging down to see what comes next.
>
> Jennifer
>
> At 01:33 PM 4/4/2013, you wrote:
> What prompted my question was that when testing PDFs with blind and
> low-vision users, some page up/down by page. If I remember correctly,
> these were probably low-vision users.
>
> Navigating to, say, page 4 and not finding any text on it, would that
> be an impairment to the user?
> Would it cause confusion if the user's AT couldn't find any content on
> that page?
>
> -Bevi
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> - -
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> www.PubCom.com - Trainers, Consultants, Designers, Developers.
> Print, Web, Acrobat, XML, eBooks, and U.S. Federal Section 508
> Accessibility.
> New schedule for classes and workshops coming in 2013.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Duff Johnson
>
> Bevi,
> I'm not aware of guidelines on this specific point. Zero content means
> zero content.
> PDF/UA is silent on this question. Fully blank (zero content) pages
> exist from an AT point of view only in the sense that they cause the
> PDF to be longer by a page. When such a page is displayed a user could
> query the PageLabel to find out (for example) that the blank page was the
> 4th of 18.
> This is notionally useful information - at least - it's equivalent
> information to that which is available to other users.
>
> On Apr 4, 2013, at 3:19 PM, Chagnon | PubCom < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >> wrote:
>> We're processing some PDFs for a government client and the books
>> have blank pages between chapters. These are to force new chapters
>> to start on right-hand pages in the printed version.
>>
>> Is there any guideline or "best practice" for identifying these
>> blank pages to blind readers?
>
> > > messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>
> > > messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>
> > > >
> > >

From: Jonathan Metz
Date: Tue, Apr 16 2013 7:34AM
Subject: Re: Blank pages in PDFs
← Previous message | Next message →

With duplex printing? One side would be blank on the last page. Depending on what the pages look like at the beginning of the document, you would have pages 2-3 together or 3-5 together. At this point, it's an aesthetic problem. Since there was no content on page 4, the content would flow understandably from page 3 to page 5. The only discrepancy would be in the page numbering.

You could add headers and footers in Acrobat with page numbering too, so you could just leave them off from the start altogether and put them in in Acrobat later.

I guess I was under the impression this was to be used online. A solution to this would be to extract the blank page instead of deleting it. Save it somewhere and then reinsert it when you need to print with it. Or do what I do, and never design a document with a blank page randomly in the middle of a document. :)

Cheers,
Jonathan

From: "Jonathan C. Cohn" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >>
Reply-To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >>
Date: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 9:14 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >>
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Blank pages in PDFs

How would that work with duplex printing.

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 16, 2013, at 8:52 AM, Jonathan Metz < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >> wrote:

I'm just curious, but couldn't the issue of blank pages and page numbering be solved by renumbering the pages in Acrobat? If you remove the blank page 4 so it skips from page 3 to 5, why not just start a new section starting at page 5?
Thanks,
Jonathan Metz
From: Pratik Patel < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ><mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >>
Reply-To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ><mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >>
Date: Friday, April 5, 2013 6:33 AM
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ><mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >>
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Blank pages in PDFs
Whenever possible, I advocate for less verbiage. In this case, the
individual looking at the PDF file has the ability (or should have the
ability) to query the metadata from Adobe Reader. This being the case, I do
not recommend adding additional verbiage that indicates that the page is
blank.
Pratik Patel
Founder and CEO, EZFire
T: 718-928-5529
M: 718-249-7019
E: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ><mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > (or = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ><mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >)
Follow me on Twitter: @ppatel
Follow me on LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/pub/pratik-patel/9/985/882
Skype: Patel.pratik
From: Karlen Communications < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ><mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >>
Reply-To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ><mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >>
Date: Friday, April 5, 2013 6:25 AM
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ><mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >>
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Blank pages in PDFs
I think of blank pages as decorative images and really don't want to spend
time hearing "page X, blank page" over and over again. I should be able to
use Bookmarks, headings and a linked Table of Contents to get to content and
use Ctrl + Shift + N in Acrobat to get to a specific page.
I appreciate that someone tagging a PDF has thought about this and decided
to put blank pages as Artifacts.
I do occasionally use screen magnification and having some vision is not a
good enough argument to tag decorative content - which is what the insertion
of a blank page is.
Cheers, Karen
-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ><mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Jennifer Sutton
Sent: Thursday, April 4, 2013 5:15 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Blank pages in PDFs
In my view, blank pages should be left in. What if I'm using this book for
research, and I need to cite page numbers?
Sometimes, I think that catering for AT can be taken to extremes. AT users
should know how to read these files and expect potentially blank pages, just
as these exist in printed, brailled, or other electronic books. If you have
low vision users who are initially confused, then I would hope they have the
AT strategies to unconfuse themselves by paging down to see what comes next.
Jennifer
At 01:33 PM 4/4/2013, you wrote:
What prompted my question was that when testing PDFs with blind and
low-vision users, some page up/down by page. If I remember correctly,
these were probably low-vision users.
Navigating to, say, page 4 and not finding any text on it, would that
be an impairment to the user?
Would it cause confusion if the user's AT couldn't find any content on
that page?
-Bevi
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
www.PubCom.com - Trainers, Consultants, Designers, Developers.
Print, Web, Acrobat, XML, eBooks, and U.S. Federal Section 508
Accessibility.
New schedule for classes and workshops coming in 2013.
-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ><mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Duff Johnson
Bevi,
I'm not aware of guidelines on this specific point. Zero content means
zero content.
PDF/UA is silent on this question. Fully blank (zero content) pages
exist from an AT point of view only in the sense that they cause the
PDF to be longer by a page. When such a page is displayed a user could
query the PageLabel to find out (for example) that the blank page was the
4th of 18.
This is notionally useful information - at least - it's equivalent
information to that which is available to other users.
On Apr 4, 2013, at 3:19 PM, Chagnon | PubCom < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ><mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >> wrote:
We're processing some PDFs for a government client and the books
have blank pages between chapters. These are to force new chapters
to start on right-hand pages in the printed version.
Is there any guideline or "best practice" for identifying these
blank pages to blind readers?
messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ><mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ><mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >

From: Chagnon | PubCom
Date: Tue, Apr 16 2013 12:51PM
Subject: Re: Blank pages in PDFs
← Previous message | No next message

These publications are designed specifically for print/visual layout. Copies
in the 10s of thousands so we're not talking about laser printers but
professional printing presses with exact technical requirements for the
press files.

A professionally design layout file is created in Adobe InDesign, and then a
web-quality accessible PDF is exported from the layout for posting to the
website, and another press-quality PDF is exported for the print shop.

Therefore, there's one set of InDesign layout files from which both the
press-quality PDF and the accessible web-quality PDF are made. This is the
standard workflow of the professional publishing industry, which designs
primarily for print/press and only recently has begun to accommodate
accessibility in the electronic versions of their publications.

Removing the blank pages between chapters and renumbering the PDF's won't
work:

1. The actual printed page numbers can't be changed once the book is
created. Tables of Content that say "Chapter 1, page 21" must really begin
on page 21, not some other "faux" page in the PDF. Same with the index at
the back of the book and any other generated list or cross reference
citation.

2. In the US Federal government, the standard is that the PDF must match the
hard printed version. Removing pages and renumbering the remaining pages
violates this standard.

3. Sure will confuse the heck out of people when one person is referring to
"Page 9" in the printed version and someone else sees a completely different
"Page 9" in the PDF.

4. And yes, removing pages will indeed botch things up for printing,
especially professional offset printing on a "real" printing press.

5. In printed books, chapters always begin on right-hand pages which have
odd numbers. Removing blank pages botches up this convention.

So my original question still stands: Are there any guidelines or best
practices for identifying these blank pages to screen reader users? Since
the blank pages can't be removed, what tactic would help screen reader users
understand that, for example, page 8 is blank?

From previous posters, it seems that placing text such as "this page left
intentionally blank" is probably the best solution.

-Bevi Chagnon
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
www.PubCom.com - Trainers, Consultants, Designers, Developers.
Print, Web, Acrobat, XML, eBooks, and U.S. Federal Section 508
Accessibility.
New schedule for classes and workshops coming in 2013.


-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Jonathan C. Cohn
Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 9:14 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Blank pages in PDFs

How would that work with duplex printing.

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 16, 2013, at 8:52 AM, Jonathan Metz < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:

> I'm just curious, but couldn't the issue of blank pages and page numbering
be solved by renumbering the pages in Acrobat? If you remove the blank page
4 so it skips from page 3 to 5, why not just start a new section starting at
page 5?
>
> Thanks,
> Jonathan Metz
>
> From: Pratik Patel < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >>
> Reply-To: WebAIM Discussion List
> < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >>
> Date: Friday, April 5, 2013 6:33 AM
> To: 'WebAIM Discussion List'
> < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >>
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Blank pages in PDFs
>
> Whenever possible, I advocate for less verbiage. In this case, the
> individual looking at the PDF file has the ability (or should have the
> ability) to query the metadata from Adobe Reader. This being the case,
> I do not recommend adding additional verbiage that indicates that the
> page is blank.
>
> Pratik Patel
> Founder and CEO, EZFire
> T: 718-928-5529
> M: 718-249-7019
> E: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > (or
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >)
> Follow me on Twitter: @ppatel
> Follow me on LinkedIn:
> http://www.linkedin.com/pub/pratik-patel/9/985/882
> Skype: Patel.pratik
> From: Karlen Communications
> < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >>
> Reply-To: WebAIM Discussion List
> < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >>
> Date: Friday, April 5, 2013 6:25 AM
> To: 'WebAIM Discussion List'
> < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >>
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Blank pages in PDFs
>
> I think of blank pages as decorative images and really don't want to
> spend time hearing "page X, blank page" over and over again. I should
> be able to use Bookmarks, headings and a linked Table of Contents to
> get to content and use Ctrl + Shift + N in Acrobat to get to a specific
page.
>
> I appreciate that someone tagging a PDF has thought about this and
> decided to put blank pages as Artifacts.
>
> I do occasionally use screen magnification and having some vision is
> not a good enough argument to tag decorative content - which is what
> the insertion of a blank page is.
>
> Cheers, Karen
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto:webaim-forum-bounces@list.
> webaim.org> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of
> Jennifer Sutton
> Sent: Thursday, April 4, 2013 5:15 PM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Blank pages in PDFs
>
> In my view, blank pages should be left in. What if I'm using this
> book for research, and I need to cite page numbers?
>
> Sometimes, I think that catering for AT can be taken to extremes. AT
> users should know how to read these files and expect potentially blank
> pages, just as these exist in printed, brailled, or other electronic
> books. If you have low vision users who are initially confused, then I
> would hope they have the AT strategies to unconfuse themselves by paging
down to see what comes next.
>
> Jennifer
>
> At 01:33 PM 4/4/2013, you wrote:
> What prompted my question was that when testing PDFs with blind and
> low-vision users, some page up/down by page. If I remember correctly,
> these were probably low-vision users.
>
> Navigating to, say, page 4 and not finding any text on it, would that
> be an impairment to the user?
> Would it cause confusion if the user's AT couldn't find any content on
> that page?
>
> -Bevi
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> -
> - -
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> www.PubCom.com - Trainers, Consultants, Designers, Developers.
> Print, Web, Acrobat, XML, eBooks, and U.S. Federal Section 508
> Accessibility.
> New schedule for classes and workshops coming in 2013.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto:webaim-forum-bounces@list.
> webaim.org> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of
> Duff Johnson
>
> Bevi,
> I'm not aware of guidelines on this specific point. Zero content means
> zero content.
> PDF/UA is silent on this question. Fully blank (zero content) pages
> exist from an AT point of view only in the sense that they cause the
> PDF to be longer by a page. When such a page is displayed a user could
> query the PageLabel to find out (for example) that the blank page was
> the 4th of 18.
> This is notionally useful information - at least - it's equivalent
> information to that which is available to other users.
>
> On Apr 4, 2013, at 3:19 PM, Chagnon | PubCom
< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >> wrote:
>> We're processing some PDFs for a government client and the books have
>> blank pages between chapters. These are to force new chapters to
>> start on right-hand pages in the printed version.
>>
>> Is there any guideline or "best practice" for identifying these blank
>> pages to blind readers?
>