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Thread: Which A.T. uses the R.O.?
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From: Chagnon | PubCom
Date: Tue, Aug 05 2014 10:46AM
Subject: Which A.T. uses the R.O.?
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Doing research and need to clarify which assistive technologies use a PDF's
reading order (not the tag reading order but the blue Z "Order" tool in
Acrobat or the Reflow utility).
So far I've identified braille keyboards and braille printers. I believe
some older versions of screen readers use it, too.
Are there any other A.T. for blind and visually impaired users that use it?
And are there any A.T. for users with mobility disabilities that use it?
-Bevi Chagnon
---
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From: Olaf Drümmer
Date: Tue, Aug 05 2014 11:15AM
Subject: Re: Which A.T. uses the R.O.?
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Hi Bevi,
- tools that do the PDF reading themselves tend to read the raw page description in a PDF file will end up reading stuff in the z "Order" (as reflected in the "Order" tool in Acrobat). These tools will present content in the same order as it would be rendered by the reflow tool (for example last time I checked a year or two ago, ZoomText did this). Also, on iOS all tools seem to do either do the PDF reading themselves or rely on the iOS built in PDF engine, both present content in the raw page description order. If only Apple started to get its act together and make use of the tagging structure in PDFs
- tools that rely on the accessibility interfaces supported by Adobe Reader / Adobe Acrobat will follow the order of the tagging structure (definitely NVDA, but probably also JAWS). Speak aloud in Adobe Reader and Adobe Acrobat and also "save as accessible text" in Acrobat will present content in this order.
Note that there are also some tools that ultimately just do OCR all the time, tools from Kurzweil tend to fall into that category.
Braille keyboards and printers will always have to rely on some piece of software - it's that software that is doing the PDF reading, and it depends on that software which order is being followed.
Olaf
On 5 Aug 2014, at 18:46, Chagnon | PubCom < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Doing research and need to clarify which assistive technologies use a PDF's
> reading order (not the tag reading order but the blue Z "Order" tool in
> Acrobat or the Reflow utility).
>
>
>
> So far I've identified braille keyboards and braille printers. I believe
> some older versions of screen readers use it, too.
>
>
>
> Are there any other A.T. for blind and visually impaired users that use it?
>
> And are there any A.T. for users with mobility disabilities that use it?
>
>
>
> -Bevi Chagnon
>
> ---
>
> www.PubCom.com <http://www.pubcom.com/>; - Trainers, Consultants, Designers,
> Developers.
>
> Print, Web, Acrobat, XML, eBooks, and U.S. Federal Section 508
> Accessibility.
>
> Taka a Sec. 508 Class in 2014 - www. <http://www.Pubcom.com/classes>;
> Pubcom.com/classes
>
>
>
> > >
From: Sailesh Panchang
Date: Tue, Aug 05 2014 12:57PM
Subject: Re: Which A.T. uses the R.O.?
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I believe, the three methods(infer reading order / left to right top
to bottom / raw print stream) are there for users to experiment and
determine which method works best when dealing with a particular
untagged file. Perhaps has other uses too I am sure.
Regards,
Sailesh
On 8/5/14, Olaf Drümmer < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Hi Bevi,
>
> - tools that do the PDF reading themselves tend to read the raw page
> description in a PDF file will end up reading stuff in the z "Order" (as
> reflected in the "Order" tool in Acrobat). These tools will present content
> in the same order as it would be rendered by the reflow tool (for example
> last time I checked a year or two ago, ZoomText did this). Also, on iOS all
> tools seem to do either do the PDF reading themselves or rely on the iOS
> built in PDF engine, both present content in the raw page description order.
> If only Apple started to get its act together and make use of the tagging
> structure in PDFs…
> - tools that rely on the accessibility interfaces supported by Adobe Reader
> / Adobe Acrobat will follow the order of the tagging structure (definitely
> NVDA, but probably also JAWS). Speak aloud in Adobe Reader and Adobe
> Acrobat and also "save as accessible text" in Acrobat will present content
> in this order.
>
> Note that there are also some tools that ultimately just do OCR all the
> time, tools from Kurzweil tend to fall into that category.
>
> Braille keyboards and printers will always have to rely on some piece of
> software - it's that software that is doing the PDF reading, and it depends
> on that software which order is being followed.
>
>
> Olaf
>
>
>
> On 5 Aug 2014, at 18:46, Chagnon | PubCom < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
>> Doing research and need to clarify which assistive technologies use a
>> PDF's
>> reading order (not the tag reading order but the blue Z "Order" tool in
>> Acrobat or the Reflow utility).
>>
>>
>>
>> So far I've identified braille keyboards and braille printers. I believe
>> some older versions of screen readers use it, too.
>>
>>
>>
>> Are there any other A.T. for blind and visually impaired users that use
>> it?
>>
>> And are there any A.T. for users with mobility disabilities that use it?
>>
>>
>>
>> -Bevi Chagnon
>>
>> ---
>>
>> www.PubCom.com <http://www.pubcom.com/>; - Trainers, Consultants,
>> Designers,
>> Developers.
>>
>> Print, Web, Acrobat, XML, eBooks, and U.S. Federal Section 508
>> Accessibility.
>>
>> Taka a Sec. 508 Class in 2014 - www. <http://www.Pubcom.com/classes>;
>> Pubcom.com/classes
>>
>>
>>
>> >> >> >
> > > >
From: Chagnon | PubCom
Date: Tue, Aug 05 2014 2:58PM
Subject: Re: Which A.T. uses the R.O.?
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Thanks Olaf for the excellent detailed explanation. You confirmed what I
thought.
It appears that we still have some assistive technologies that use the RO
(z-order) rather than the tag order, but there's hope it will become
obsolete sometime in the future.
If anyone has a particular AT that uses the RO, other than braille keyboards
and printers and Kurtzweils, please let us know. I'm trying to document
which items use this.
To clarify for others on the list, "raw page description" is basically the
code written into the PDF file and it directly correlates to the sequence of
steps the user made to create the document.
When using MS Word to create a PDF, this sequence usually follows from
top-down and left-to-right, so the reading order (or z order) usually is the
same, top-down, left-to-right (ok, forget the tragic flaw in Word 2010 and
think instead Word 2013 which places anchored objects in the correct order).
The problems arise when PDFs are made from visually rich documents, like
those from Adobe InDesign, M.S. Publisher, and M.S. PowerPoint. In those
programs, the authors place items all over the place and not necessarily in
the top-down left-right order. And their sequence of mouse-clicks used to
create the document are all over the place, too. It's that sequence of
mouse-clicks (or placement of items like text blocks and graphics) that
don't follow a logical reading order at all.
Hence, really crazy reading orders (z-order) in the resulting PDF, even
though the tag reading order is just fine.
Bevi Chagnon
www.PubCom.com Trainers, Consultants, Designers, Developers.
Print, Web, Acrobat, XML, eBooks, and U.S. Federal Section 508
Accessibility.
Taka a Sec. 508 Class in 2014 www.Pubcom.com/classes