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Thread: ALT text for equations

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Number of posts in this thread: 9 (In chronological order)

From: Liko, Todd
Date: Mon, Aug 18 2014 6:02AM
Subject: ALT text for equations
No previous message | Next message →

Hello all.

I have researched this topic online and found older WebAIM threads. The information I have found thus far indicates there is not a lot of support for making equations accessible, short of writing it out in ALT text.

I am curious how others are dealing with this, not only for HTML and in PDF documents as well.

_______
Todd Liko
Communications Advisor | Conseiller en communications
Web Services | Services Web
Communications and Marketing | Communications et Marketing
427 Avenue Laurier Avenue West (AEAD), Ottawa ON K1A 0N5
427 Avenue Laurier Ouest (AEAD), Ottawa (Ontario) K1A 0N5
e-mail / courriel: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
telephone / téléphone: 613-949-9425 | fax / télécopieur: 613-949-2386
blackberry: 613-796-6375
Government of Canada | Gouvernement du Canada

From: Olaf Drümmer
Date: Mon, Aug 18 2014 6:51AM
Subject: Re: ALT text for equations
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Todd,

what about using MathML?

Olaf


On 18 Aug 2014, at 14:02, "Liko, Todd" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Hello all.
>
> I have researched this topic online and found older WebAIM threads. The information I have found thus far indicates there is not a lot of support for making equations accessible, short of writing it out in ALT text.
>
> I am curious how others are dealing with this, not only for HTML and in PDF documents as well.
>
> _______
> Todd Liko
> Communications Advisor | Conseiller en communications
> Web Services | Services Web
> Communications and Marketing | Communications et Marketing
> 427 Avenue Laurier Avenue West (AEAD), Ottawa ON K1A 0N5
> 427 Avenue Laurier Ouest (AEAD), Ottawa (Ontario) K1A 0N5
> e-mail / courriel: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> telephone / téléphone: 613-949-9425 | fax / télécopieur: 613-949-2386
> blackberry: 613-796-6375
> Government of Canada | Gouvernement du Canada
>
> > >

From: Liko, Todd
Date: Mon, Aug 18 2014 7:04AM
Subject: Re: ALT text for equations
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Olaf.

I thought this was not fully supported yet and can this be used in PDF documents?

Todd.

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Olaf Drümmer
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2014 8:52 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] ALT text for equations

Hi Todd,

what about using MathML?

Olaf


On 18 Aug 2014, at 14:02, "Liko, Todd" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Hello all.
>
> I have researched this topic online and found older WebAIM threads. The information I have found thus far indicates there is not a lot of support for making equations accessible, short of writing it out in ALT text.
>
> I am curious how others are dealing with this, not only for HTML and in PDF documents as well.
>
> _______
> Todd Liko
> Communications Advisor | Conseiller en communications Web Services |
> Services Web Communications and Marketing | Communications et
> Marketing
> 427 Avenue Laurier Avenue West (AEAD), Ottawa ON K1A 0N5
> 427 Avenue Laurier Ouest (AEAD), Ottawa (Ontario) K1A 0N5 e-mail /
> courriel: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> telephone / téléphone: 613-949-9425 | fax / télécopieur: 613-949-2386
> blackberry: 613-796-6375
> Government of Canada | Gouvernement du Canada
>
> > > list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

From: Olaf Drümmer
Date: Mon, Aug 18 2014 7:30AM
Subject: Re: ALT text for equations
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Todd,

it will be officially and fully supported in the upcoming version 2 of PDF (expected for 2016, so admittedly a little bit of a wait for any current project).

Meanwhile it can be supported by simply using the MathML tags as custom tags in Tagged PDF. So far there have been hardly any assistive technologies supporting this, but I have heard that NVDA is working on support for MathML in current Tagged PDF.

I can share more info once I'm back from my vacation… (early September)

Olaf



On 18 Aug 2014, at 15:04, "Liko, Todd" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Hi Olaf.
>
> I thought this was not fully supported yet and can this be used in PDF documents?
>
> Todd.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Olaf Drümmer
> Sent: Monday, August 18, 2014 8:52 AM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] ALT text for equations
>
> Hi Todd,
>
> what about using MathML?
>
> Olaf
>
>
> On 18 Aug 2014, at 14:02, "Liko, Todd" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
>> Hello all.
>>
>> I have researched this topic online and found older WebAIM threads. The information I have found thus far indicates there is not a lot of support for making equations accessible, short of writing it out in ALT text.
>>
>> I am curious how others are dealing with this, not only for HTML and in PDF documents as well.
>>
>> _______
>> Todd Liko
>> Communications Advisor | Conseiller en communications Web Services |
>> Services Web Communications and Marketing | Communications et
>> Marketing
>> 427 Avenue Laurier Avenue West (AEAD), Ottawa ON K1A 0N5
>> 427 Avenue Laurier Ouest (AEAD), Ottawa (Ontario) K1A 0N5 e-mail /
>> courriel: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> telephone / téléphone: 613-949-9425 | fax / télécopieur: 613-949-2386
>> blackberry: 613-796-6375
>> Government of Canada | Gouvernement du Canada
>>
>> >> >> list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>
> > >
> > >

From: steve.noble@louisville.edu
Date: Mon, Aug 18 2014 7:48AM
Subject: Re: ALT text for equations
← Previous message | Next message →

If you are talking about mainstream use in HTML, common practice now is to use MathJax: http://www.mathjax.org/
Of course, if you are creating alternative format materials for individual student use, you can use DAISY+MathML. MathJax is generally what is used these days if you are creating a general use or university website, since it gets around the problem of supporting multiple platforms/browsers. MathJax pages can still serve MathML to browsers/AT that can use the code.
PDF is more difficult. The PDF/UA specification supports MathML, but there is really no simple way to get the MathML into a PDF without hand coding every expression. There's a bit of a discussion here, though: https://forums.adobe.com/thread/1460948

Hope that helps,

--Steve Noble
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
502-969-3088
http://louisville.academia.edu/SteveNoble


From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [ = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] on behalf of Liko, Todd [ = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2014 8:02 AM
To: ' = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = '
Subject: [WebAIM] ALT text for equations

Hello all.

I have researched this topic online and found older WebAIM threads. The information I have found thus far indicates there is not a lot of support for making equations accessible, short of writing it out in ALT text.

I am curious how others are dealing with this, not only for HTML and in PDF documents as well.

_______
Todd Liko
Communications Advisor | Conseiller en communications
Web Services | Services Web
Communications and Marketing | Communications et Marketing
427 Avenue Laurier Avenue West (AEAD), Ottawa ON K1A 0N5
427 Avenue Laurier Ouest (AEAD), Ottawa (Ontario) K1A 0N5
e-mail / courriel: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
telephone / téléphone: 613-949-9425 | fax / télécopieur: 613-949-2386
blackberry: 613-796-6375
Government of Canada | Gouvernement du Canada

From: John E Brandt
Date: Mon, Aug 18 2014 10:12AM
Subject: Re: ALT text for equations
← Previous message | Next message →

I attended a webinar last year that dealt with the whole issue of
accessibility instructional materials and mathematics. Basically it made my
head explode.

The whole use of images or MathML is only one part of the accessibility
issue. The bigger issue is related to the actual "reading" of the equation.
Not only is there a knack for reading the equation correctly so it makes
sense from a listening perspective, there are apparently multiple terms for
the same symbol and regional vernacular to some of these. In the webinar
they demonstrated a math symbol for a square root that was called something
different depending on where you lived in the United States! In the webinar
they also recommended working with math teachers or science teachers to make
sure you were doing this correctly.

Add to this the fact that in HTML, different browsers/OS combinations will
show the same equation using MathML differently and you are far from having
a standardized situation.

The final sense was that things were getting better, but were still not
perfect.

Here are some resources:

http://aim.cast.org/experience/acrosscurriculum/math/math_and_images#.U_Ilgf
ldXh4
http://aim.cast.org/learn/e-resources/accessibility_resources/stem#.U_Ilrfld
Xh4
http://aim.cast.org/experience/technologies/mathml_nimas#.U_IlyPldXh4


~j

John E. Brandt
jebswebs: accessible and universal web design,
development and consultation
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
207-622-7937
Augusta, Maine, USA

@jebswebs

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Liko, Todd
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2014 8:02 AM
To: ' = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = '
Subject: [WebAIM] ALT text for equations

Hello all.

I have researched this topic online and found older WebAIM threads. The
information I have found thus far indicates there is not a lot of support
for making equations accessible, short of writing it out in ALT text.

I am curious how others are dealing with this, not only for HTML and in PDF
documents as well.

_______
Todd Liko
Communications Advisor | Conseiller en communications Web Services |
Services Web Communications and Marketing | Communications et Marketing
427 Avenue Laurier Avenue West (AEAD), Ottawa ON K1A 0N5
427 Avenue Laurier Ouest (AEAD), Ottawa (Ontario) K1A 0N5 e-mail / courriel:
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
telephone / téléphone: 613-949-9425 | fax / télécopieur: 613-949-2386
blackberry: 613-796-6375
Government of Canada | Gouvernement du Canada

messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

From: Liko, Todd
Date: Mon, Aug 18 2014 10:40AM
Subject: Re: ALT text for equations
← Previous message | Next message →

Thank you Olaf, especially for taking time to reply during your vacation.

Todd.

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Olaf Drümmer
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2014 9:30 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] ALT text for equations

Hi Todd,

it will be officially and fully supported in the upcoming version 2 of PDF (expected for 2016, so admittedly a little bit of a wait for any current project).

Meanwhile it can be supported by simply using the MathML tags as custom tags in Tagged PDF. So far there have been hardly any assistive technologies supporting this, but I have heard that NVDA is working on support for MathML in current Tagged PDF.

I can share more info once I'm back from my vacation. (early September)

Olaf



On 18 Aug 2014, at 15:04, "Liko, Todd" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Hi Olaf.
>
> I thought this was not fully supported yet and can this be used in PDF documents?
>
> Todd.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Olaf
> Drümmer
> Sent: Monday, August 18, 2014 8:52 AM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] ALT text for equations
>
> Hi Todd,
>
> what about using MathML?
>
> Olaf
>
>
> On 18 Aug 2014, at 14:02, "Liko, Todd" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
>> Hello all.
>>
>> I have researched this topic online and found older WebAIM threads. The information I have found thus far indicates there is not a lot of support for making equations accessible, short of writing it out in ALT text.
>>
>> I am curious how others are dealing with this, not only for HTML and in PDF documents as well.
>>
>> _______
>> Todd Liko
>> Communications Advisor | Conseiller en communications Web Services |
>> Services Web Communications and Marketing | Communications et
>> Marketing
>> 427 Avenue Laurier Avenue West (AEAD), Ottawa ON K1A 0N5
>> 427 Avenue Laurier Ouest (AEAD), Ottawa (Ontario) K1A 0N5 e-mail /
>> courriel: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> telephone / téléphone: 613-949-9425 | fax / télécopieur: 613-949-2386
>> blackberry: 613-796-6375
>> Government of Canada | Gouvernement du Canada
>>
>> >> >> list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>
> > > list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>
> > > list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

From: Liko, Todd
Date: Mon, Aug 18 2014 10:41AM
Subject: Re: ALT text for equations
← Previous message | Next message →

Thank you all for your responses.

Todd.

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of John E Brandt
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2014 12:13 PM
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] ALT text for equations

I attended a webinar last year that dealt with the whole issue of accessibility instructional materials and mathematics. Basically it made my head explode.

The whole use of images or MathML is only one part of the accessibility issue. The bigger issue is related to the actual "reading" of the equation.
Not only is there a knack for reading the equation correctly so it makes sense from a listening perspective, there are apparently multiple terms for the same symbol and regional vernacular to some of these. In the webinar they demonstrated a math symbol for a square root that was called something different depending on where you lived in the United States! In the webinar they also recommended working with math teachers or science teachers to make sure you were doing this correctly.

Add to this the fact that in HTML, different browsers/OS combinations will show the same equation using MathML differently and you are far from having a standardized situation.

The final sense was that things were getting better, but were still not perfect.

Here are some resources:

http://aim.cast.org/experience/acrosscurriculum/math/math_and_images#.U_Ilgf
ldXh4
http://aim.cast.org/learn/e-resources/accessibility_resources/stem#.U_Ilrfld
Xh4
http://aim.cast.org/experience/technologies/mathml_nimas#.U_IlyPldXh4


~j

John E. Brandt
jebswebs: accessible and universal web design, development and consultation = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
207-622-7937
Augusta, Maine, USA

@jebswebs

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Liko, Todd
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2014 8:02 AM
To: ' = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = '
Subject: [WebAIM] ALT text for equations

Hello all.

I have researched this topic online and found older WebAIM threads. The information I have found thus far indicates there is not a lot of support for making equations accessible, short of writing it out in ALT text.

I am curious how others are dealing with this, not only for HTML and in PDF documents as well.

_______
Todd Liko
Communications Advisor | Conseiller en communications Web Services | Services Web Communications and Marketing | Communications et Marketing
427 Avenue Laurier Avenue West (AEAD), Ottawa ON K1A 0N5
427 Avenue Laurier Ouest (AEAD), Ottawa (Ontario) K1A 0N5 e-mail / courriel:
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
telephone / téléphone: 613-949-9425 | fax / télécopieur: 613-949-2386
blackberry: 613-796-6375
Government of Canada | Gouvernement du Canada

From: Chagnon | PubCom
Date: Mon, Aug 18 2014 9:36PM
Subject: Re: ALT text for equations
← Previous message | No next message

Olaf wrote:
" Meanwhile it can be supported by simply using the MathML tags as custom
tags in Tagged PDF. So far there have been hardly any assistive technologies
supporting this, but I have heard that NVDA is working on support for MathML
in current Tagged PDF. "

So sad. This is something that is sorely needed.
--Bevi Chagnon

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