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Thread: headings, html5 sectioning content, best practice

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Number of posts in this thread: 11 (In chronological order)

From: dawn@dawnbudge.co.uk
Date: Wed, Nov 12 2014 4:54AM
Subject: headings, html5 sectioning content, best practice
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Hi,
We're currently facing a dilemma in my team where we are trying to decide
on the best practice for how to mark up headings in sectioning content.
E.g. you have an element like <section>, <article>, or <footer>, and it
contains a heading
If you follow the spec you would mark that up with <h1>. However, that
will cause issues in AT, particularly screenreaders, so to support those
you would use <h2>. Because of JAWS' support for the outline standard
(http://juicystudio.com/article/html5-outline-algorithm-jaws.php) this
further requires use of aria to set the heading level properly for JAWS.
Once AT catches up, these settings will be legacy code, and you'd then have
the job of updating add headings in sectioning content to their
spec-compliant number.
- Is there a consensus over best practice amongst accessibility experts?
- Am I right in thinking that only JAWS supports document outline properly?
- How often does Apple update VoiceOver? They seem to update less often
than JAWS - Am I right in thinking that headlines are commonly used for
navigation?

Thanks,Dawn

From: Stefan Sollinger
Date: Wed, Nov 12 2014 5:09AM
Subject: Re: headings, html5 sectioning content, best practice
← Previous message | Next message →

The spec always allowed using h2 etc. AFAIK the spec has been changed some
time ago and it now *recommends* using the appropriate level <h2>, <h3> etc
for subheadings.

Use h2, h3 etc in the normal way. There are only a couple of old Jaws
versions that will try to take the outline level into account but then get
it wrong, and this can be corrected with the aria-level attribute.

Use the following for your sub headings and it will work with all screen
readers:
(Example is an h2 heading, other heading levels work in a similar way)

<h2 aria-level="2">

--
Stefan Sollinger
On 12 Nov 2014 11:56, " = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = " < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Hi,
> We're currently facing a dilemma in my team where we are trying to decide
> on the best practice for how to mark up headings in sectioning content.
> E.g. you have an element like <section>, <article>, or <footer>, and it
> contains a heading
> If you follow the spec you would mark that up with <h1>. However, that
> will cause issues in AT, particularly screenreaders, so to support those
> you would use <h2>. Because of JAWS' support for the outline standard
> (http://juicystudio.com/article/html5-outline-algorithm-jaws.php) this
> further requires use of aria to set the heading level properly for JAWS.
> Once AT catches up, these settings will be legacy code, and you'd then have
> the job of updating add headings in sectioning content to their
> spec-compliant number.
> - Is there a consensus over best practice amongst accessibility experts?
> - Am I right in thinking that only JAWS supports document outline properly?
> - How often does Apple update VoiceOver? They seem to update less often
> than JAWS - Am I right in thinking that headlines are commonly used for
> navigation?
>
> Thanks,Dawn
> > > >

From: Steve Faulkner
Date: Wed, Nov 12 2014 5:11AM
Subject: Re: headings, html5 sectioning content, best practice
← Previous message | Next message →

On 12 November 2014 11:54, = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:

> Once AT catches up, these settings will be legacy code, and you'd then have
> the job of updating add headings in sectioning content to their
> spec-compliant number.
> - Is there a consensus over best practice amongst accessibility experts?
> - Am I right in thinking that only JAWS supports document outline properly?
> - How often does Apple update VoiceOver? They seem to update less often
> than JAWS - Am I right in thinking that headlines are commonly used for
> navigation?
>

Jaws pulled support for the outline algorithm a few versions back as their
implementation was problematic.
No browser implements the outline algorithm: refer to
https://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/Usage/Headings/h1only#Heading_semantics_exposed_by_browsers

HTML5 Recommendation states:

> There are currently no known implementations of the outline algorithm in
> graphical browsers or assistive technology user agents, although the
> algorithm is implemented in other software such as conformance checkers.
> Therefore the outline algorithm cannot be relied upon to convey document
> structure to users. Authors are advised to use heading rank (h1-h6) to
> convey document structure.
> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/sections.html#outlines
>

for implementation outlook refer bug links here
https://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/Usage/Headings/h1only#Notes


further advice:
https://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/Usage/Headings/h1only
https://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/Usage/Headings/Missing






--

Regards

SteveF
HTML 5.1 <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/>;

From: Steve Faulkner
Date: Wed, Nov 12 2014 5:14AM
Subject: Re: headings, html5 sectioning content, best practice
← Previous message | Next message →

On 12 November 2014 12:09, Stefan Sollinger < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> your sub headings and it will work with all screen
> readers:
> (Example is an h2 heading, other heading levels work in a similar way)
>
> <h2 aria-level="2">
>


the aria-level is not needed unless you intend to override the default
level semantics <h2 aria-level="3">
for which I can't see a use for.

--

Regards

SteveF
HTML 5.1 <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/>;

From: Stefan Sollinger
Date: Wed, Nov 12 2014 6:00AM
Subject: Re: headings, html5 sectioning content, best practice
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Steve,

You are correct, as I said there were only some old versions of Jaws that
used the outline but in the wrong way. I can't remember the exact version
numbers, I think it was Jaws 13 and 14.

I suggested to add aria-level as this will ensure that these old versions
of Jaws announce the correct heading level. It's not needed for anything
else.

--
Stefan
On 12 Nov 2014 12:16, "Steve Faulkner" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> On 12 November 2014 12:09, Stefan Sollinger < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> > your sub headings and it will work with all screen
> > readers:
> > (Example is an h2 heading, other heading levels work in a similar way)
> >
> > <h2 aria-level="2">
> >
>
>
> the aria-level is not needed unless you intend to override the default
> level semantics <h2 aria-level="3">
> for which I can't see a use for.
>
> --
>
> Regards
>
> SteveF
> HTML 5.1 <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/>;
> > > >

From: dawn@dawnbudge.co.uk
Date: Wed, Nov 12 2014 7:33AM
Subject: Re: headings, html5 sectioning content, best practice
← Previous message | Next message →

Thanks both, dilemma solved. When I read that JAWS 15 had removed its
broken algorithm, I somehow interpreted that as they had fixed it, rather
than deleted it.

----------------------------------------
From: "Stefan Sollinger" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2014 1:02 PM
To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] headings, html5 sectioning content, best practice

Hi Steve,

You are correct, as I said there were only some old versions of Jaws that
used the outline but in the wrong way. I can't remember the exact version
numbers, I think it was Jaws 13 and 14.

I suggested to add aria-level as this will ensure that these old versions
of Jaws announce the correct heading level. It's not needed for anything
else.

--
Stefan
On 12 Nov 2014 12:16, "Steve Faulkner" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> On 12 November 2014 12:09, Stefan Sollinger < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:
>
> > your sub headings and it will work with all screen
> > readers:
> > (Example is an h2 heading, other heading levels work in a similar way)
> >
> > <h2 aria-level="2">
> >
>
>
> the aria-level is not needed unless you intend to override the default
> level semantics <h2 aria-level="3">
> for which I can't see a use for.
>
> --
>
> Regards
>
> SteveF
> HTML 5.1 <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/>;
> > > >

From: Don Mauck
Date: Wed, Nov 12 2014 8:22AM
Subject: Re: headings, html5 sectioning content, best practice
← Previous message | Next message →

It was definitely JAWS13, I don't remember it being a problem in 14.

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2014 7:34 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List; WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] headings, html5 sectioning content, best practice

Thanks both, dilemma solved. When I read that JAWS 15 had removed its
broken algorithm, I somehow interpreted that as they had fixed it, rather
than deleted it.

----------------------------------------
From: "Stefan Sollinger" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2014 1:02 PM
To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] headings, html5 sectioning content, best practice

Hi Steve,

You are correct, as I said there were only some old versions of Jaws that
used the outline but in the wrong way. I can't remember the exact version
numbers, I think it was Jaws 13 and 14.

I suggested to add aria-level as this will ensure that these old versions
of Jaws announce the correct heading level. It's not needed for anything
else.

--
Stefan
On 12 Nov 2014 12:16, "Steve Faulkner" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> On 12 November 2014 12:09, Stefan Sollinger < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:
>
> > your sub headings and it will work with all screen
> > readers:
> > (Example is an h2 heading, other heading levels work in a similar way)
> >
> > <h2 aria-level="2">
> >
>
>
> the aria-level is not needed unless you intend to override the default
> level semantics <h2 aria-level="3">
> for which I can't see a use for.
>
> --
>
> Regards
>
> SteveF
> HTML 5.1 <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/>;
> > > >

From: Bim Egan
Date: Thu, Nov 13 2014 8:06AM
Subject: Re: headings, html5 sectioning content, best practice
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi,

It did happen in JAWS 14, but perhaps only in Internet Explorer. Here
the fix needed both the WAI-ARIA role of "heading" as well as the aria-level
intended.

Having said that, I don't believe that web authors and developers should
have to jump through hoops to rectify screen reader bugs. As a screen
reader user, I do find incorrect output of heading levels annoying, but we
soon learn what the cause is and don't blame the web sites.

Bim


-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Don Mauck
Sent: 12 November 2014 15:23
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ; WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] headings, html5 sectioning content, best practice

It was definitely JAWS13, I don't remember it being a problem in 14.

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2014 7:34 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List; WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] headings, html5 sectioning content, best practice

Thanks both, dilemma solved. When I read that JAWS 15 had removed its
broken algorithm, I somehow interpreted that as they had fixed it, rather
than deleted it.

----------------------------------------
From: "Stefan Sollinger" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2014 1:02 PM
To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] headings, html5 sectioning content, best practice

Hi Steve,

You are correct, as I said there were only some old versions of Jaws that
used the outline but in the wrong way. I can't remember the exact version
numbers, I think it was Jaws 13 and 14.

I suggested to add aria-level as this will ensure that these old versions of
Jaws announce the correct heading level. It's not needed for anything else.

--
Stefan
On 12 Nov 2014 12:16, "Steve Faulkner" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> On 12 November 2014 12:09, Stefan Sollinger < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:
>
> > your sub headings and it will work with all screen
> > readers:
> > (Example is an h2 heading, other heading levels work in a similar
> > way)
> >
> > <h2 aria-level="2">
> >
>
>
> the aria-level is not needed unless you intend to override the default
> level semantics <h2 aria-level="3"> for which I can't see a use for.
>
> --
>
> Regards
>
> SteveF
> HTML 5.1 <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/>;
> > > list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>
messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =


messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

From: Don Mauck
Date: Thu, Nov 13 2014 8:15AM
Subject: Re: headings, html5 sectioning content, best practice
← Previous message | Next message →

I agree with, the biggest problem we face is how to tell if it's a Browser, application or a screen reader bug. I wish there was an easier way to figure that out for me.

-----Original Message-----
From: Bim Egan [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2014 8:07 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] headings, html5 sectioning content, best practice

Hi,

It did happen in JAWS 14, but perhaps only in Internet Explorer. Here
the fix needed both the WAI-ARIA role of "heading" as well as the aria-level intended.

Having said that, I don't believe that web authors and developers should have to jump through hoops to rectify screen reader bugs. As a screen reader user, I do find incorrect output of heading levels annoying, but we soon learn what the cause is and don't blame the web sites.

Bim


-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Don Mauck
Sent: 12 November 2014 15:23
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ; WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] headings, html5 sectioning content, best practice

It was definitely JAWS13, I don't remember it being a problem in 14.

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2014 7:34 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List; WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] headings, html5 sectioning content, best practice

Thanks both, dilemma solved. When I read that JAWS 15 had removed its broken algorithm, I somehow interpreted that as they had fixed it, rather than deleted it.

----------------------------------------
From: "Stefan Sollinger" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2014 1:02 PM
To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] headings, html5 sectioning content, best practice

Hi Steve,

You are correct, as I said there were only some old versions of Jaws that used the outline but in the wrong way. I can't remember the exact version numbers, I think it was Jaws 13 and 14.

I suggested to add aria-level as this will ensure that these old versions of Jaws announce the correct heading level. It's not needed for anything else.

--
Stefan
On 12 Nov 2014 12:16, "Steve Faulkner" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> On 12 November 2014 12:09, Stefan Sollinger < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:
>
> > your sub headings and it will work with all screen
> > readers:
> > (Example is an h2 heading, other heading levels work in a similar
> > way)
> >
> > <h2 aria-level="2">
> >
>
>
> the aria-level is not needed unless you intend to override the default
> level semantics <h2 aria-level="3"> for which I can't see a use for.
>
> --
>
> Regards
>
> SteveF
> HTML 5.1 <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/>;
> > > list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>

From: eero hauskamaa
Date: Fri, Nov 14 2014 8:50AM
Subject: Re: headings, html5 sectioning content, best practice
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi

Jaws is a good selection on windows platform, because it supports
common standards and implementations.
However we shoulld be discussed how effective testing software it is.
Non-commercial screenreaders position on the market is growed and growing.
I beleave that best html 5 support is included in newest Nvda versions.

Eero

From: Steve Faulkner
Date: Fri, Nov 14 2014 9:01AM
Subject: Re: headings, html5 sectioning content, best practice
← Previous message | No next message

On 14 November 2014 15:50, eero hauskamaa < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> I beleave that best html 5 support is included in newest Nvda versions.


NVDA with Firefox works very well because Firefox exposes the HTML
semantics via accessibility APIs and NVDA makes use of of that.
JAWS also works well, but they don't always use the accessibility
information exposed by Firefox.

I think JAWS works better on IE as it hacks around some of IE's lack of
support by pulling information from the DOM, NVDA does less of this with IE.

For an overview of windows browsers current accessibility support for newer
HTML5 features take a look at http://www.html5accessibility.com/

--

Regards

SteveF
HTML 5.1 <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/>;