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Thread: Modal Dialog Content Not Being Read

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From: Moore,Michael (Accessibility) (HHSC)
Date: Wed, Jul 27 2016 9:32AM
Subject: Modal Dialog Content Not Being Read
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We made a small change to our modal dialogs to add an aria-label so that the title of the dialog would be read when it opened. However now the content of the dialogs is not accessible via NVDA in IE 11. Has anyone seen this before. We can fix the issue by removing the aria-label but we would like to have this extra information announced if possible.

Mike Moore
Accessibility Coordinator
Texas Health and Human Services Commission
Civil Rights Office
(512) 438-3431 (Office)

From: Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Date: Wed, Jul 27 2016 10:58AM
Subject: Re: Modal Dialog Content Not Being Read
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I am seeing the same, plus IE11 does not respect aria-hidden="true" so
a screen reader user can see, and navigate to the inert background
content when the dialog is open.
I see this both with NVDA and Jaws 17.

I have not tested much with NVDA/IE, I test NVDA almost exclusively
with Firefox.
NVDA has made remarkable improvements with IE, and I give them thumbs
up for that, but that combination is still not as good as NVDA and FF,
and I guess we can't ask for every a.t./browser combination to be
accessible.
Just my 2,4 Icelandic krona (roughly equivalent of 2 cents).
Cheers
-B

On 7/27/16, Moore,Michael (Accessibility) (HHSC)
< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> We made a small change to our modal dialogs to add an aria-label so that the
> title of the dialog would be read when it opened. However now the content of
> the dialogs is not accessible via NVDA in IE 11. Has anyone seen this
> before. We can fix the issue by removing the aria-label but we would like to
> have this extra information announced if possible.
>
> Mike Moore
> Accessibility Coordinator
> Texas Health and Human Services Commission
> Civil Rights Office
> (512) 438-3431 (Office)
>
> > > > >


--
Work hard. Have fun. Make history.

From: Bryan Garaventa
Date: Wed, Jul 27 2016 11:17AM
Subject: Re: Modal Dialog Content Not Being Read
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IE11 doesn't support aria-hidden? Actually it has been supported for a long time in both JAWS and NVDA.



I just tested this and it works correctly using the following modals:



1. Using a named region as the dialog container:

http://whatsock.com/tsg/Coding%20Arena/Modals/Modal%20(Internal%20Content)/demo.htm



2. Using role=dialog plus aria-modal at:

http://whatsock.com/tsg/Coding%20Arena/Modals/Modal%20(Internal%20Content%20With%20role=dialog)/demo.htm



I still don’t like the role=dialog version (#2) because of how badly it works in NVDA in IE11, because they still insist on enforcing Applications Mode for dialogs. But please test the difference for yourself.



All the best,

Bryan





Bryan Garaventa

Accessibility Fellow

SSB BART Group, Inc.

= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

415.624.2709 (o)

www.SSBBartGroup.com



-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2016 9:58 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Modal Dialog Content Not Being Read



I am seeing the same, plus IE11 does not respect aria-hidden="true" so a screen reader user can see, and navigate to the inert background content when the dialog is open.

I see this both with NVDA and Jaws 17.



I have not tested much with NVDA/IE, I test NVDA almost exclusively with Firefox.

NVDA has made remarkable improvements with IE, and I give them thumbs up for that, but that combination is still not as good as NVDA and FF, and I guess we can't ask for every a.t./browser combination to be accessible.

Just my 2,4 Icelandic krona (roughly equivalent of 2 cents).

Cheers

-B



On 7/27/16, Moore,Michael (Accessibility) (HHSC) < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >> wrote:

> We made a small change to our modal dialogs to add an aria-label so

> that the title of the dialog would be read when it opened. However now

> the content of the dialogs is not accessible via NVDA in IE 11. Has

> anyone seen this before. We can fix the issue by removing the

> aria-label but we would like to have this extra information announced if possible.

>

> Mike Moore

> Accessibility Coordinator

> Texas Health and Human Services Commission Civil Rights Office

> (512) 438-3431 (Office)

>

>
> > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives

> >





--

Work hard. Have fun. Make history.

From: Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Date: Wed, Jul 27 2016 11:43AM
Subject: Re: Modal Dialog Content Not Being Read
← Previous message | Next message →

Thanks Bryan
You are right, I was looking at an incomplete example where I forgot
to add aria-hidden to a background component, whoops.
I did find it odd that Jaws was still exposing the content in IE, but
I just upgraded to Jaws 17 and thought that was the problem, vs. me
being the problem. *grin*
Perhaps I need an upgrade too
-B


On 7/27/16, Moore,Michael (Accessibility) (HHSC)
< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> We made a small change to our modal dialogs to add an aria-label so that the
> title of the dialog would be read when it opened. However now the content of
> the dialogs is not accessible via NVDA in IE 11. Has anyone seen this
> before. We can fix the issue by removing the aria-label but we would like to
> have this extra information announced if possible.
>
> Mike Moore
> Accessibility Coordinator
> Texas Health and Human Services Commission
> Civil Rights Office
> (512) 438-3431 (Office)
>
> > > > >


--
Work hard. Have fun. Make history.

From: Bryan Garaventa
Date: Wed, Jul 27 2016 11:49AM
Subject: Re: Modal Dialog Content Not Being Read
← Previous message | Next message →

No worries, we all make mistakes :)


Bryan Garaventa
Accessibility Fellow
SSB BART Group, Inc.
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
415.624.2709 (o)
www.SSBBartGroup.com


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2016 10:43 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Modal Dialog Content Not Being Read

Thanks Bryan
You are right, I was looking at an incomplete example where I forgot to add aria-hidden to a background component, whoops.
I did find it odd that Jaws was still exposing the content in IE, but I just upgraded to Jaws 17 and thought that was the problem, vs. me being the problem. *grin* Perhaps I need an upgrade too -B


On 7/27/16, Moore,Michael (Accessibility) (HHSC) < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> We made a small change to our modal dialogs to add an aria-label so
> that the title of the dialog would be read when it opened. However now
> the content of the dialogs is not accessible via NVDA in IE 11. Has
> anyone seen this before. We can fix the issue by removing the
> aria-label but we would like to have this extra information announced if possible.
>
> Mike Moore
> Accessibility Coordinator
> Texas Health and Human Services Commission Civil Rights Office
> (512) 438-3431 (Office)
>
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >


--
Work hard. Have fun. Make history.

From: Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Date: Wed, Jul 27 2016 12:07PM
Subject: Re: Modal Dialog Content Not Being Read
← Previous message | Next message →

I am awfully stubborn with the dialog role thing.
I personally don't like NVDA automatically switching into forms mode
when inside a dialog.

But the fact is that authors can only use the most appropriate
role/markup for the job, then leave the handling of that markup to the
assistive technology.
That's why I am in principal against using role="region" or the
document role specifically to cancel the NVDA forms mode interaction
with dialogs.
NVDA might have user feedback I am not aware of, or other reasons why
they do not change this functionality on their end.

We are creating standards precisely to get away from authors being
exposed to the whims of a particular user agent. The more we enforce
that authors follow that standard, and ensure that the user agents
take advantage of that markup and translate it into a better
experience for the people, the faster we will get to a more accessible
world, at least in theory.
I know teling a frustrated user who is not able to access an important
alert about his online statement today that he just has to file an
issue with his screen reader vendor and he will likely be able to see
the alert in November is not exactly helpful.
That is the dilemma that us accessibility folks often find ourselves in.
Do we fix it with 6 layers of duct tape today, or do we give ourselves
time to go to Home Depot to get a 2 by 4 and the tools to fix it
proper.
Honestly, we keep having to do a bit of both.
Cheers



On 7/27/16, Bryan Garaventa < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> No worries, we all make mistakes :)
>
>
> Bryan Garaventa
> Accessibility Fellow
> SSB BART Group, Inc.
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> 415.624.2709 (o)
> www.SSBBartGroup.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf
> Of Birkir R. Gunnarsson
> Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2016 10:43 AM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Modal Dialog Content Not Being Read
>
> Thanks Bryan
> You are right, I was looking at an incomplete example where I forgot to add
> aria-hidden to a background component, whoops.
> I did find it odd that Jaws was still exposing the content in IE, but I just
> upgraded to Jaws 17 and thought that was the problem, vs. me being the
> problem. *grin* Perhaps I need an upgrade too -B
>
>
> On 7/27/16, Moore,Michael (Accessibility) (HHSC)
> < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>> We made a small change to our modal dialogs to add an aria-label so
>> that the title of the dialog would be read when it opened. However now
>> the content of the dialogs is not accessible via NVDA in IE 11. Has
>> anyone seen this before. We can fix the issue by removing the
>> aria-label but we would like to have this extra information announced if
>> possible.
>>
>> Mike Moore
>> Accessibility Coordinator
>> Texas Health and Human Services Commission Civil Rights Office
>> (512) 438-3431 (Office)
>>
>> >> >> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> >>
>
>
> --
> Work hard. Have fun. Make history.
> > > http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > > >


--
Work hard. Have fun. Make history.

From: Bryan Garaventa
Date: Wed, Jul 27 2016 1:23PM
Subject: Re: Modal Dialog Content Not Being Read
← Previous message | No next message

True enough, however we also have to weigh what clients need for their users, and a travel website for example if they get sued by users who cannot access what they need is not likely going to care what the spec says if the assistive technology the user is using behaves badly.

This is why I provide both implementations in the TSG Coding Arena, so that there is an informed choice for people to determine what their needs are before it's too late to do anything about it.



Bryan Garaventa
Accessibility Fellow
SSB BART Group, Inc.
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
415.624.2709 (o)
www.SSBBartGroup.com

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2016 11:08 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Modal Dialog Content Not Being Read

I am awfully stubborn with the dialog role thing.
I personally don't like NVDA automatically switching into forms mode when inside a dialog.

But the fact is that authors can only use the most appropriate role/markup for the job, then leave the handling of that markup to the assistive technology.
That's why I am in principal against using role="region" or the document role specifically to cancel the NVDA forms mode interaction with dialogs.
NVDA might have user feedback I am not aware of, or other reasons why they do not change this functionality on their end.

We are creating standards precisely to get away from authors being exposed to the whims of a particular user agent. The more we enforce that authors follow that standard, and ensure that the user agents take advantage of that markup and translate it into a better experience for the people, the faster we will get to a more accessible world, at least in theory.
I know teling a frustrated user who is not able to access an important alert about his online statement today that he just has to file an issue with his screen reader vendor and he will likely be able to see the alert in November is not exactly helpful.
That is the dilemma that us accessibility folks often find ourselves in.
Do we fix it with 6 layers of duct tape today, or do we give ourselves time to go to Home Depot to get a 2 by 4 and the tools to fix it proper.
Honestly, we keep having to do a bit of both.
Cheers



On 7/27/16, Bryan Garaventa < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> No worries, we all make mistakes :)
>
>
> Bryan Garaventa
> Accessibility Fellow
> SSB BART Group, Inc.
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> 415.624.2709 (o)
> www.SSBBartGroup.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> Behalf Of Birkir R. Gunnarsson
> Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2016 10:43 AM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Modal Dialog Content Not Being Read
>
> Thanks Bryan
> You are right, I was looking at an incomplete example where I forgot
> to add aria-hidden to a background component, whoops.
> I did find it odd that Jaws was still exposing the content in IE, but
> I just upgraded to Jaws 17 and thought that was the problem, vs. me
> being the problem. *grin* Perhaps I need an upgrade too -B
>
>
> On 7/27/16, Moore,Michael (Accessibility) (HHSC)
> < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>> We made a small change to our modal dialogs to add an aria-label so
>> that the title of the dialog would be read when it opened. However
>> now the content of the dialogs is not accessible via NVDA in IE 11.
>> Has anyone seen this before. We can fix the issue by removing the
>> aria-label but we would like to have this extra information announced
>> if possible.
>>
>> Mike Moore
>> Accessibility Coordinator
>> Texas Health and Human Services Commission Civil Rights Office
>> (512) 438-3431 (Office)
>>
>> >> >> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> >>
>
>
> --
> Work hard. Have fun. Make history.
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >


--
Work hard. Have fun. Make history.