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Thread: Using a Mouse with a Screen Reader

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Number of posts in this thread: 8 (In chronological order)

From: Sarah Jevnikar
Date: Fri, Aug 25 2017 12:50PM
Subject: Using a Mouse with a Screen Reader
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Hi all,
I've been evaluating some accessibility tickets of potential WCAG level A failures, but the original tests were run with a mouse and a screen reader. I use a screen reader but can't use a mouse, and can't replicate the problems the original tests indicated. Is a screen reader user with a mouse a viable test case to explore? If a mouse user finds different results than a keyboard user, does this suggest a WCAG failure, as possibly a failure of 2.1.1? How might something like that be rectified?
Thank you for your help,
Sarah

From: Jonathan Avila
Date: Fri, Aug 25 2017 12:56PM
Subject: Re: Using a Mouse with a Screen Reader
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Testing a screen reader with a keyboard is the recommended path of operating the screen reader. In my experience screen readers are not fully designed to work with a mouse and the results may vary. I've seen a lot of crazy results from non-screen reader users who perform a command like a say all and then press enter while the say all is occurring and then fail something because the screen reader did not activate the item or activated the wrong item. Clearly the non-screen reader tester did not know how a screen reader is designed to work. Interestingly enough WCAG 2 assumes mouse/pointer access and does not have a requirement for pointer access -- only keyboard access.

Jonathan

Jonathan Avila
Chief Accessibility Officer
Level Access, inc. (formerly SSB BART Group, inc.)
(703) 637-8957
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-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Sarah Jevnikar
Sent: Friday, August 25, 2017 2:51 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: [WebAIM] Using a Mouse with a Screen Reader

Hi all,
I've been evaluating some accessibility tickets of potential WCAG level A failures, but the original tests were run with a mouse and a screen reader. I use a screen reader but can't use a mouse, and can't replicate the problems the original tests indicated. Is a screen reader user with a mouse a viable test case to explore? If a mouse user finds different results than a keyboard user, does this suggest a WCAG failure, as possibly a failure of 2.1.1? How might something like that be rectified?
Thank you for your help,
Sarah

From: Andrews, David B (DEED)
Date: Fri, Aug 25 2017 1:00PM
Subject: Re: Using a Mouse with a Screen Reader
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I think this is pretty rare usage. I personally wouldn't bother with it.

Dave



David Andrews | Chief Technology Officer
Minnesota Department of Employment and Economic Development
State Services for the Blind
2200 University Ave West, Suite 240, St. Paul MN 55114
Direct: 651-539-2294
Web | Twitter | Facebook




-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Sarah Jevnikar
Sent: Friday, August 25, 2017 1:51 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: [WebAIM] Using a Mouse with a Screen Reader

Hi all,
I've been evaluating some accessibility tickets of potential WCAG level A failures, but the original tests were run with a mouse and a screen reader. I use a screen reader but can't use a mouse, and can't replicate the problems the original tests indicated. Is a screen reader user with a mouse a viable test case to explore? If a mouse user finds different results than a keyboard user, does this suggest a WCAG failure, as possibly a failure of 2.1.1? How might something like that be rectified?
Thank you for your help,
Sarah

From: Harrison, Rita L
Date: Fri, Aug 25 2017 1:11PM
Subject: Re: Using a Mouse with a Screen Reader
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FYI... An Assistive Technology such as a screen reader, does have the capability of using the mouse actions using different keyboard commands.


Rita L. Harrison, FDA 508 Coordinator
Lead, FDA 508 Web Working Group (WWG)
Chairperson, FDA Advisory Committee for Employees with Disabilities (ACED)
OO/OIMT/OBCA/DBPS/IIB
Web Support Team (WST)
(805)638-0207
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Sarah Jevnikar
Sent: Friday, August 25, 2017 11:51 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: [WebAIM] Using a Mouse with a Screen Reader

Hi all,
I've been evaluating some accessibility tickets of potential WCAG level A failures, but the original tests were run with a mouse and a screen reader. I use a screen reader but can't use a mouse, and can't replicate the problems the original tests indicated. Is a screen reader user with a mouse a viable test case to explore? If a mouse user finds different results than a keyboard user, does this suggest a WCAG failure, as possibly a failure of 2.1.1? How might something like that be rectified?
Thank you for your help,
Sarah

From: J Isaac
Date: Fri, Aug 25 2017 1:25PM
Subject: Re: Using a Mouse with a Screen Reader
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Sara,

You asked if using a mouse with a screen reader is a viable test case.

Regardless of others opinions, I do believe it is.

I have had similar experiences as Jon Avila with non-screen reader users trying to test keyboard flows and that is one thing to consider.

As a full time screen reader user, I sometimes use the mouse tracking in NVDA and mouse echo feature in JAWS to gain orientation to screen layout.

I believe this will be a use case that will gain acceptance amongst daily screen reader users over time as these tools become more accurate and use is understood.
If I were to add this case to my testing methodology, I would draw a distinct difference between screen reader with keyboard and screen reader with mouse, ensuring the mouse tracking and mouse echo are off when keyboard testing.

HTH,
== Joel Isaac

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Sarah Jevnikar
Sent: Friday, August 25, 2017 11:51 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: [WebAIM] Using a Mouse with a Screen Reader

Hi all,
I've been evaluating some accessibility tickets of potential WCAG level A failures, but the original tests were run with a mouse and a screen reader. I use a screen reader but can't use a mouse, and can't replicate the problems the original tests indicated. Is a screen reader user with a mouse a viable test case to explore? If a mouse user finds different results than a keyboard user, does this suggest a WCAG failure, as possibly a failure of 2.1.1? How might something like that be rectified?
Thank you for your help,
Sarah

From: Sarah Jevnikar
Date: Fri, Aug 25 2017 1:40PM
Subject: Re: Using a Mouse with a Screen Reader
← Previous message | Next message →

Thanks Rita, Jonathan and Dave for your help! I used all the mouse emulation techniques I could think of and no luck. I'm glad my suppositions were correct.
Sarah


Sarah Jevnikar
Accessibility Consultant

Digital Echidna

t: 877-858-9604
e: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Harrison, Rita L
Sent: August 25, 2017 3:12 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Using a Mouse with a Screen Reader

FYI... An Assistive Technology such as a screen reader, does have the capability of using the mouse actions using different keyboard commands.


Rita L. Harrison, FDA 508 Coordinator
Lead, FDA 508 Web Working Group (WWG)
Chairperson, FDA Advisory Committee for Employees with Disabilities (ACED) OO/OIMT/OBCA/DBPS/IIB Web Support Team (WST)
(805)638-0207
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Sarah Jevnikar
Sent: Friday, August 25, 2017 11:51 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: [WebAIM] Using a Mouse with a Screen Reader

Hi all,
I've been evaluating some accessibility tickets of potential WCAG level A failures, but the original tests were run with a mouse and a screen reader. I use a screen reader but can't use a mouse, and can't replicate the problems the original tests indicated. Is a screen reader user with a mouse a viable test case to explore? If a mouse user finds different results than a keyboard user, does this suggest a WCAG failure, as possibly a failure of 2.1.1? How might something like that be rectified?
Thank you for your help,
Sarah

From: Sarah Jevnikar
Date: Wed, Aug 30 2017 8:28PM
Subject: Re: Using a Mouse with a Screen Reader - further Questions
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Joel,
Thanks for your thoughts. I'll try a mouse in the way you suggested and see how it goes. You raise a good point - screen layout has become more important in the age of the touch screen; why wouldn't the same be true of the laptop or pc?

To everyone - I'm curious though with the original problem: the mouse was giving different speech output to the tab key and links list. On iOS, touching the screen and moving my finger around without lifting it gave different results than swiping between elements.

Three questions arise
1. Why is this happening?
2. What can be done about it?
3. Is swiping between elements on a mobile device analogous to the tab order, and touching and moving without lifting one's finger equivalent to using a mouse?

Thank you so much
Sarah

Sarah Jevnikar

Accessibility Consultant

Digital Echidna

p: 519-858-4438 ex. 211
e: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of J Isaac
Sent: August 25, 2017 3:26 PM
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Using a Mouse with a Screen Reader

Hi Sara,

You asked if using a mouse with a screen reader is a viable test case.

Regardless of others opinions, I do believe it is.

I have had similar experiences as Jon Avila with non-screen reader users trying to test keyboard flows and that is one thing to consider.

As a full time screen reader user, I sometimes use the mouse tracking in NVDA and mouse echo feature in JAWS to gain orientation to screen layout.

I believe this will be a use case that will gain acceptance amongst daily screen reader users over time as these tools become more accurate and use is understood.
If I were to add this case to my testing methodology, I would draw a distinct difference between screen reader with keyboard and screen reader with mouse, ensuring the mouse tracking and mouse echo are off when keyboard testing.

HTH,
== Joel Isaac

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Sarah Jevnikar
Sent: Friday, August 25, 2017 11:51 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: [WebAIM] Using a Mouse with a Screen Reader

Hi all,
I've been evaluating some accessibility tickets of potential WCAG level A failures, but the original tests were run with a mouse and a screen reader. I use a screen reader but can't use a mouse, and can't replicate the problems the original tests indicated. Is a screen reader user with a mouse a viable test case to explore? If a mouse user finds different results than a keyboard user, does this suggest a WCAG failure, as possibly a failure of 2.1.1? How might something like that be rectified?
Thank you for your help,
Sarah

From: Tim Harshbarger
Date: Thu, Aug 31 2017 6:46AM
Subject: Re: Using a Mouse with a Screen Reader - further Questions
← Previous message | No next message

Sarah,

1. Why is this happening?
You are seeing a difference between explore by touch and swiping because they work differently. When you use a swiping gesture to explore the user interface, screen readers (like Voiceover on iOS or Talkback on Android) work more like a desktop screen reader in document/browse mode. The screen reader navigates the user interface according to how elements appear in the DOM tree. With explore by touch, the screen reader reads elements based on their spatial relationships.

2. What can be done about it?
If spatial relationships convey information, that same information should be conveyed in a manner that is presented when someone navigates the user interface by swiping or using the document/browse mode.

3. Is swiping between elements on a mobile device analogous to the tab order, and touching and moving without lifting one's finger equivalent to using a mouse?
Yes, you could say that. However, while I think Joel presents some good information for why you might also test using a mouse and screen reader, I personally would not bother testing that way--unless I was responding to direct user feedback. Basically, any information that is conveyed visually through spatial relationships should also be conveyed in a non-visual manner as well. While I think you could make a case that explore by touch provides a non-visual way to convey spatial information, I tend to think that it still relies on an understanding of visual spatial relationships and how they work--and I am not sure that is something I would want to assume the user always understands. Instead I would likely stick to presenting that same information either programmatically or via text. On the accessibility of user interfaces every day. I would not consider myself a typical user.

I hope this helps some.

Thanks,
Tim
-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Sarah Jevnikar
Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2017 9:29 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Using a Mouse with a Screen Reader - further Questions

Hi Joel,
Thanks for your thoughts. I'll try a mouse in the way you suggested and see how it goes. You raise a good point - screen layout has become more important in the age of the touch screen; why wouldn't the same be true of the laptop or pc?

To everyone - I'm curious though with the original problem: the mouse was giving different speech output to the tab key and links list. On iOS, touching the screen and moving my finger around without lifting it gave different results than swiping between elements.

Three questions arise
1. Why is this happening?
2. What can be done about it?
3. Is swiping between elements on a mobile device analogous to the tab order, and touching and moving without lifting one's finger equivalent to using a mouse?

Thank you so much
Sarah

Sarah Jevnikar

Accessibility Consultant

Digital Echidna

p: 519-858-4438 ex. 211
e: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of J Isaac
Sent: August 25, 2017 3:26 PM
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Using a Mouse with a Screen Reader

Hi Sara,

You asked if using a mouse with a screen reader is a viable test case.

Regardless of others opinions, I do believe it is.

I have had similar experiences as Jon Avila with non-screen reader users trying to test keyboard flows and that is one thing to consider.

As a full time screen reader user, I sometimes use the mouse tracking in NVDA and mouse echo feature in JAWS to gain orientation to screen layout.

I believe this will be a use case that will gain acceptance amongst daily screen reader users over time as these tools become more accurate and use is understood.
If I were to add this case to my testing methodology, I would draw a distinct difference between screen reader with keyboard and screen reader with mouse, ensuring the mouse tracking and mouse echo are off when keyboard testing.

HTH,
== Joel Isaac

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Sarah Jevnikar
Sent: Friday, August 25, 2017 11:51 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: [WebAIM] Using a Mouse with a Screen Reader

Hi all,
I've been evaluating some accessibility tickets of potential WCAG level A failures, but the original tests were run with a mouse and a screen reader. I use a screen reader but can't use a mouse, and can't replicate the problems the original tests indicated. Is a screen reader user with a mouse a viable test case to explore? If a mouse user finds different results than a keyboard user, does this suggest a WCAG failure, as possibly a failure of 2.1.1? How might something like that be rectified?
Thank you for your help,
Sarah