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Thread: stimulating some conversation

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Number of posts in this thread: 12 (In chronological order)

From: Lucy Greco
Date: Thu, Oct 19 2017 12:50PM
Subject: stimulating some conversation
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hi everyone:
I saw an interesting blog post this morning and wanted to know how many
accessibility people would be working in this group.
https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2017/10/18/mozilla-brings-microsoft-google-w3c-samsung-together-create-cross-browser-documentation-mdn/
many of the things this group is focused on would affect accessibility in
very dramatic ways and I think it's very important that we participate.
First is anyone here participating in this group.
Secondly how can we participate in this group.
Lastly note the absence of one significant group.
Let's discuss freely here

lucy
Lucia Greco
Web Accessibility Evangelist
IST - Architecture, Platforms, and Integration
University of California, Berkeley
(510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
Follow me on twitter @accessaces

From: David Wisniewski
Date: Thu, Oct 19 2017 1:18PM
Subject: Re: stimulating some conversation
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I understand your point, Lucy, and I’ll get to the accessibility bit in a minute, but first I wanted to say - isn’t this effort missing a larger, far more important point? The article explains that ‘build(ing) for the cross-browser web is too fragmented (and difficult)’. Shouldn’t this group be getting together to ensure that all browsers adhere to common standards THE SAME WAY, so that there isn’t as much need to code for browser-specific problems? Why do we accept that so much customization is required for a specific browser? I was around in the ‘this page best viewed in Netscape 3’ days, and I thought we left those behind. Isn’t that where we are supposed to be in 2017?

Similarly, I’ve been thinking this over for a while in terms of the accessibility movement itself, wanting to write to this group and say ‘why don’t we band together and tell the tool makers (browsers AND assistive tech) that we want them to adhere to the standards; no work arounds. For example: ‘your tools should all function the same way when they encounter the ARIA tags', etc., etc. It doesn’t seem like an unreasonable goal.

Am I missing something here? Would love to hear thoughts on this.

Regards,
David Wisniewski


> On Oct 19, 2017, at 2:50 PM, Lucy Greco < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> I saw an interesting blog post this morning and wanted to know how many
> accessibility people would be working in this group.
> https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2017/10/18/mozilla-brings-microsoft-google-w3c-samsung-together-create-cross-browser-documentation-mdn/ <https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2017/10/18/mozilla-brings-microsoft-google-w3c-samsung-together-create-cross-browser-documentation-mdn/> […]

From: Patrick H. Lauke
Date: Thu, Oct 19 2017 1:23PM
Subject: Re: stimulating some conversation
← Previous message | Next message →

On 19/10/2017 19:50, Lucy Greco wrote:
> hi everyone:
> I saw an interesting blog post this morning and wanted to know how many
> accessibility people would be working in this group.
> https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2017/10/18/mozilla-brings-microsoft-google-w3c-samsung-together-create-cross-browser-documentation-mdn/
> many of the things this group is focused on would affect accessibility in
> very dramatic ways and I think it's very important that we participate.
> First is anyone here participating in this group.

MDN can be edited by anybody. No need to be part of a special "group".
Sign in (using GitHub...it used to be you could also set up a separate
MDN account, but the option seems to have been phased out a while ago)
and you can Edit any page on MDN - essentially, it's a fancy wiki.

> Secondly how can we participate in this group.
> Lastly note the absence of one significant group.

See above.

P
--
Patrick H. Lauke

www.splintered.co.uk | https://github.com/patrickhlauke
http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | http://redux.deviantart.com
twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke

From: Steve Faulkner
Date: Thu, Oct 19 2017 1:25PM
Subject: Re: stimulating some conversation
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>
> MDN can be edited by anybody. No need to be part of a special "group".


true dat!

--

Regards

SteveF
Current Standards Work @W3C
<http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/2015/03/current-standards-work-at-w3c/>;

On 19 October 2017 at 20:23, Patrick H. Lauke < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:

> On 19/10/2017 19:50, Lucy Greco wrote:
>
>> hi everyone:
>> I saw an interesting blog post this morning and wanted to know how many
>> accessibility people would be working in this group.
>> https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2017/10/18/mozilla-brings-micr
>> osoft-google-w3c-samsung-together-create-cross-browser-documentation-mdn/
>> many of the things this group is focused on would affect accessibility in
>> very dramatic ways and I think it's very important that we participate.
>> First is anyone here participating in this group.
>>
>
> MDN can be edited by anybody. No need to be part of a special "group".
> Sign in (using GitHub...it used to be you could also set up a separate MDN
> account, but the option seems to have been phased out a while ago) and you
> can Edit any page on MDN - essentially, it's a fancy wiki.
>
> Secondly how can we participate in this group.
>> Lastly note the absence of one significant group.
>>
>
> See above.
>
> P
> --
> Patrick H. Lauke
>
> www.splintered.co.uk | https://github.com/patrickhlauke
> http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | http://redux.deviantart.com
> twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke
>
> > > > >

From: Patrick H. Lauke
Date: Thu, Oct 19 2017 1:28PM
Subject: Re: stimulating some conversation
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On 19/10/2017 20:18, David Wisniewski wrote:
> I understand your point, Lucy, and I’ll get to the accessibility bit in a minute, but first I wanted to say - isn’t this effort missing a larger, far more important point? The article explains that ‘build(ing) for the cross-browser web is too fragmented (and difficult)’.

The full quote is "“One common thread we hear from web developers is
that documentation on how to build for the cross-browser web is too
fragmented,”"

So note it's not Google, Mozilla, Samsung and co saying that
cross-browser web is too fragmented, but rather it says it's a common
complaint from developers. And at the root of the complaint is the fact
that good documentation (about standards, as well as certain features
that are only currently implemented in one browser or other because
either they're proprietary or because other browsers haven't yet
implemented a feature that's on a standards track fully) is hard to come
by and scattered across various places.

> Shouldn’t this group be getting together to ensure that all browsers adhere to common standards THE SAME WAY, so that there isn’t as much need to code for browser-specific problems?

They are, as they all collaborate on standards at the W3C. Adoption of
standards varies though, and some browsers do still experiment with
features first before putting them on a standards track.

[...]

> Am I missing something here? Would love to hear thoughts on this.

Yes, you seemed to have missed the context.

P
--
Patrick H. Lauke

www.splintered.co.uk | https://github.com/patrickhlauke
http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | http://redux.deviantart.com
twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke

From: Lucy Greco
Date: Thu, Oct 19 2017 1:28PM
Subject: Re: stimulating some conversation
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excellent I'm glad to see the conversation started.
However mostly what I'm focused on is the list of members in the list at
the bottom of the post and the specific committee that they are forming. I
don't recognize any of the names in that group but I do recognize the
organizations they belong to.

Lucia Greco
Web Accessibility Evangelist
IST - Architecture, Platforms, and Integration
University of California, Berkeley
(510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
Follow me on twitter @accessaces


On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 12:25 PM, Steve Faulkner < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:

> >
> > MDN can be edited by anybody. No need to be part of a special "group".
>
>
> true dat!
>
> --
>
> Regards
>
> SteveF
> Current Standards Work @W3C
> <http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/2015/03/current-standards-work-at-w3c/>;
>
> On 19 October 2017 at 20:23, Patrick H. Lauke < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> wrote:
>
> > On 19/10/2017 19:50, Lucy Greco wrote:
> >
> >> hi everyone:
> >> I saw an interesting blog post this morning and wanted to know how many
> >> accessibility people would be working in this group.
> >> https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2017/10/18/mozilla-brings-micr
> >> osoft-google-w3c-samsung-together-create-cross-browser-
> documentation-mdn/
> >> many of the things this group is focused on would affect accessibility
> in
> >> very dramatic ways and I think it's very important that we participate.
> >> First is anyone here participating in this group.
> >>
> >
> > MDN can be edited by anybody. No need to be part of a special "group".
> > Sign in (using GitHub...it used to be you could also set up a separate
> MDN
> > account, but the option seems to have been phased out a while ago) and
> you
> > can Edit any page on MDN - essentially, it's a fancy wiki.
> >
> > Secondly how can we participate in this group.
> >> Lastly note the absence of one significant group.
> >>
> >
> > See above.
> >
> > P
> > --
> > Patrick H. Lauke
> >
> > www.splintered.co.uk | https://github.com/patrickhlauke
> > http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | http://redux.deviantart.com
> > twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke
> >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > >

From: Patrick H. Lauke
Date: Thu, Oct 19 2017 1:35PM
Subject: Re: stimulating some conversation
← Previous message | Next message →

On 19/10/2017 20:28, Lucy Greco wrote:
> excellent I'm glad to see the conversation started.
> However mostly what I'm focused on is the list of members in the list at
> the bottom of the post and the specific committee that they are forming. I
> don't recognize any of the names in that group but I do recognize the
> organizations they belong to.

If your concern is about "there's no accessibility organization in that
list of board members", then I'll note that W3C is represented, and that
covers a large chunk of accessibility organizations - particularly those
involved directly in the shaping and documentation of standards.

P
--
Patrick H. Lauke

www.splintered.co.uk | https://github.com/patrickhlauke
http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | http://redux.deviantart.com
twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke

From: John Foliot
Date: Thu, Oct 19 2017 1:40PM
Subject: Re: stimulating some conversation
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Hi David,

> Shouldn’t this group be getting together to ensure that all browsers
adhere to common standards THE SAME WAY, so that there isn’t as much need
to code for browser-specific problems?

Uhm... that is exactly why all of those vendors are working collectively at
the W3C (ref: HTML 5), and one of the reasons why the W3C is involved in
this outreach activity as well. I'll note as well that in our
"accessibility" space, it isn't so much that there are differences in
browsers (although there are), but more importantly gaps between different
AT tools (looking at you JAWs).

> why don’t we band together and tell the tool makers (browsers AND
assistive tech) that we want them to adhere to the standards; no work
arounds.

This seems to presume that those conversations aren't already happening,
which would be incorrect.

However, all of the browser vendors (and AT companies too) are private
companies, and they have no legal obligation to do what you want of them,
and so adoption and implementation of various aspects of the different W3C
specifications is (and always will be) voluntary.

This is why (for example) every major browser and screen reader besides
Safari and VoiceOver support the @longdesc attribute. Apple got their noses
in a snit over that however, and over the fact that at the W3C it took the
Director (TimBL) to finally declare @longdesc as part of HTML5 after a long
and protracted 'debate' over whether to include that attribute in HTML5 at
all (some readers will know how active I was in that whole mess). In
response, Apple simply chooses to not support that decision, and there is
nothing more anyone can say or do.


@Lucy:
This seems to be a revival of the previous Web Platform cooperative effort (
https://webplatform.github.io/) that ran from 2012 through 2015, before
being shuttered due to duplication of content at the time, as well as a
lack of human resources to flesh out that site/content. Given that Mozilla
already funds and maintains the MDN domain and content, it makes perfect
sense to drive this kind of activity towards a stable home, which Mozilla
is offering to provide. I for one think this is a useful step forward.

JF

On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 2:18 PM, David Wisniewski < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:

> I understand your point, Lucy, and I’ll get to the accessibility bit in a
> minute, but first I wanted to say - isn’t this effort missing a larger,
> far more important point? The article explains that ‘build(ing) for the
> cross-browser web is too fragmented (and difficult)’. Shouldn’t this group
> be getting together to ensure that all browsers adhere to common standards
> THE SAME WAY, so that there isn’t as much need to code for browser-specific
> problems? Why do we accept that so much customization is required for a
> specific browser? I was around in the ‘this page best viewed in Netscape
> 3’ days, and I thought we left those behind. Isn’t that where we are
> supposed to be in 2017?
>
> Similarly, I’ve been thinking this over for a while in terms of the
> accessibility movement itself, wanting to write to this group and say ‘why
> don’t we band together and tell the tool makers (browsers AND assistive
> tech) that we want them to adhere to the standards; no work arounds. For
> example: ‘your tools should all function the same way when they encounter
> the ARIA tags', etc., etc. It doesn’t seem like an unreasonable goal.
>
> Am I missing something here? Would love to hear thoughts on this.
>
> Regards,
> David Wisniewski
>
>
> > On Oct 19, 2017, at 2:50 PM, Lucy Greco < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> >
> > I saw an interesting blog post this morning and wanted to know how many
> > accessibility people would be working in this group.
> > https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2017/10/18/mozilla-brings-
> microsoft-google-w3c-samsung-together-create-cross-browser-
> documentation-mdn/ <https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2017/10/18/mozilla-
> brings-microsoft-google-w3c-samsung-together-create-cross-
> browser-documentation-mdn/> […]
> > > > >



--
John Foliot
Principal Accessibility Strategist
Deque Systems Inc.
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

Advancing the mission of digital accessibility and inclusion

From: Patrick H. Lauke
Date: Thu, Oct 19 2017 1:45PM
Subject: Re: stimulating some conversation
← Previous message | Next message →

On 19/10/2017 20:40, John Foliot wrote:
[...]
> Uhm... that is exactly why all of those vendors are working collectively at
> the W3C (ref: HTML 5), and one of the reasons why the W3C is involved in
> this outreach activity as well. I'll note as well that in our
> "accessibility" space, it isn't so much that there are differences in
> browsers (although there are), but more importantly gaps between different
> AT tools (looking at you JAWs).

Please file issues ;)

https://github.com/FreedomScientific/VFO-standards-support

P
--
Patrick H. Lauke

www.splintered.co.uk | https://github.com/patrickhlauke
http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | http://redux.deviantart.com
twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke

From: John Foliot
Date: Thu, Oct 19 2017 1:46PM
Subject: Re: stimulating some conversation
← Previous message | Next message →

We do. :-)

JF

On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 2:45 PM, Patrick H. Lauke < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:

> On 19/10/2017 20:40, John Foliot wrote:
> [...]
>
>> Uhm... that is exactly why all of those vendors are working collectively
>> at
>> the W3C (ref: HTML 5), and one of the reasons why the W3C is involved in
>> this outreach activity as well. I'll note as well that in our
>> "accessibility" space, it isn't so much that there are differences in
>> browsers (although there are), but more importantly gaps between different
>> AT tools (looking at you JAWs).
>>
>
> Please file issues ;)
>
> https://github.com/FreedomScientific/VFO-standards-support
>
> P
> --
> Patrick H. Lauke
>
> www.splintered.co.uk | https://github.com/patrickhlauke
> http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | http://redux.deviantart.com
> twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke
> > > > >



--
John Foliot
Principal Accessibility Strategist
Deque Systems Inc.
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

Advancing the mission of digital accessibility and inclusion

From: Lucy Greco
Date: Thu, Oct 19 2017 1:50PM
Subject: Re: stimulating some conversation
← Previous message | Next message →

thanks John you got exactly to the point I was looking at and you actually
hit the vendor I was talking about that was missing from that list I think
it's really important that this work happens I think this is an excellent
group and we should support their work and we should contribute I think
it's also very valuable that we continue to have this kind of conversation.
Patrick I'm very glad that you emphasized and pointed out the github page
4jaws. But remember that was only released a week or two ago I think it's
critical that they created this it's just sad that it taken so long to come
I'm very happy this working group exists but I think we all need to have
more conversations about these kinds of things so that we know what's going
on and when.

Lucia Greco
Web Accessibility Evangelist
IST - Architecture, Platforms, and Integration
University of California, Berkeley
(510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
Follow me on twitter @accessaces


On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 12:45 PM, Patrick H. Lauke < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:

> On 19/10/2017 20:40, John Foliot wrote:
> [...]
>
>> Uhm... that is exactly why all of those vendors are working collectively
>> at
>> the W3C (ref: HTML 5), and one of the reasons why the W3C is involved in
>> this outreach activity as well. I'll note as well that in our
>> "accessibility" space, it isn't so much that there are differences in
>> browsers (although there are), but more importantly gaps between different
>> AT tools (looking at you JAWs).
>>
>
> Please file issues ;)
>
> https://github.com/FreedomScientific/VFO-standards-support
>
> P
> --
> Patrick H. Lauke
>
> www.splintered.co.uk | https://github.com/patrickhlauke
> http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | http://redux.deviantart.com
> twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke
> > > > >

From: Don Mauck
Date: Thu, Oct 19 2017 2:00PM
Subject: Re: stimulating some conversation
← Previous message | No next message

I agree with that!!

-----Original Message-----
From: Lucy Greco [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2017 1:50 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] stimulating some conversation

thanks John you got exactly to the point I was looking at and you actually hit the vendor I was talking about that was missing from that list I think it's really important that this work happens I think this is an excellent group and we should support their work and we should contribute I think it's also very valuable that we continue to have this kind of conversation.
Patrick I'm very glad that you emphasized and pointed out the github page 4jaws. But remember that was only released a week or two ago I think it's critical that they created this it's just sad that it taken so long to come I'm very happy this working group exists but I think we all need to have more conversations about these kinds of things so that we know what's going on and when.

Lucia Greco
Web Accessibility Evangelist
IST - Architecture, Platforms, and Integration University of California, Berkeley
(510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__webaccess.berkeley.edu&d=DwIGaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=k6hK9kqErmiaM2WPed7yQol4o5B5T2RN9kQnrCNqE7I&m=KMJlm3QHx4F0GQmWeEx1tzoNqVQ4azObkZhML4l67oA&s=VtAFp1-0IthtEPxSWW1VxkuOaAHwNruawhIYksv79CE&eFollow me on twitter @accessaces


On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 12:45 PM, Patrick H. Lauke < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:

> On 19/10/2017 20:40, John Foliot wrote:
> [...]
>
>> Uhm... that is exactly why all of those vendors are working collectively
>> at
>> the W3C (ref: HTML 5), and one of the reasons why the W3C is involved in
>> this outreach activity as well. I'll note as well that in our
>> "accessibility" space, it isn't so much that there are differences in
>> browsers (although there are), but more importantly gaps between different
>> AT tools (looking at you JAWs).
>>
>
> Please file issues ;)
>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__github.com_FreedomScientific_VFO-2Dstandards-2Dsupport&d=DwIGaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=k6hK9kqErmiaM2WPed7yQol4o5B5T2RN9kQnrCNqE7I&m=KMJlm3QHx4F0GQmWeEx1tzoNqVQ4azObkZhML4l67oA&s=uc-J5hkfQ3y6qopqNQ2bw0E9tH6Fx4pZxPMs6f9sc24&e>
> P
> --
> Patrick H. Lauke
>
> www.splintered.co.uk | https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__github.com_patrickhlauke&d=DwIGaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=k6hK9kqErmiaM2WPed7yQol4o5B5T2RN9kQnrCNqE7I&m=KMJlm3QHx4F0GQmWeEx1tzoNqVQ4azObkZhML4l67oA&s=GVH0GdScZ4rmYd-ldVjSmM6Vo452F7eyivKQ3Npu1AI&e> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__flickr.com_photos_redux_&d=DwIGaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=k6hK9kqErmiaM2WPed7yQol4o5B5T2RN9kQnrCNqE7I&m=KMJlm3QHx4F0GQmWeEx1tzoNqVQ4azObkZhML4l67oA&s=lKQ5qduUC4tUuNyWZvJy2iY6gcaYEz5HtGDhT39xcKA&e= | https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__redux.deviantart.com&d=DwIGaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=k6hK9kqErmiaM2WPed7yQol4o5B5T2RN9kQnrCNqE7I&m=KMJlm3QHx4F0GQmWeEx1tzoNqVQ4azObkZhML4l67oA&s