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From: Jeremy Echols
Date: Fri, Nov 03 2017 4:09PM
Subject: Accessible pagination?
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I'm looking at this article: http://www.a11ymatters.com/pattern/pagination/

It seems like the author is suggesting extremely verbose pagination for non-sighted users. This feels like a lot of extra noise to me, but I'm not an AT user, so I really don't know. It seems like once you get into the region, you'll know that the region is for pagination navigation (as per the aria-label on the "ul" element). Is there really a need to label every one of those "Goto Page X"? I could see an argument for "Page X", but even that feels like unnecessary verbosity.

Help!

From: Bim Egan
Date: Fri, Nov 03 2017 4:22PM
Subject: Re: Accessible pagination?
← Previous message | Next message →

I agree, identifying each link as "Page 1" etc makes it more difficult to
select the link from a links list ... They all begin with P instead of each
being uniquely first letter pickable by number. I'm not keen on the term
Pagination either, users are more likely to understand "Other pages" "more
results" or similar. The principle's good, but overdone.

Bim
having the

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf
Of Jeremy Echols
Sent: 03 November 2017 22:09
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: [WebAIM] Accessible pagination?

I'm looking at this article: http://www.a11ymatters.com/pattern/pagination/

It seems like the author is suggesting extremely verbose pagination for
non-sighted users. This feels like a lot of extra noise to me, but I'm not
an AT user, so I really don't know. It seems like once you get into the
region, you'll know that the region is for pagination navigation (as per the
aria-label on the "ul" element). Is there really a need to label every one
of those "Goto Page X"? I could see an argument for "Page X", but even that
feels like unnecessary verbosity.

Help!
http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
http://www.avg.com

From: Tim Harshbarger
Date: Mon, Nov 06 2017 6:41AM
Subject: Re: Accessible pagination?
← Previous message | Next message →

Just to offer another perspective, I do not think that this pattern is too verbose or problematic as a screen reader user. For me, too verbose is something like a group label for radio buttons that is a paragraph long. That tends to feel verbose. However, I know other screen reader users might feel differently.

My thought is that if you follow this pattern, someone using a screen reader would clearly get the idea that this part of the page is the pagination. I also think you could use only parts of this pattern and end up with something that might be accessible as well, but depending on what you do it might not be as clear to screen reader users who don't spend their days reviewing, discussing, and testing user interfaces like I do.

This is one of those situations where being able to test with real end users would help. You could find out if there are any major differences between patterns.
-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Bim Egan
Sent: Friday, November 3, 2017 5:22 PM
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Accessible pagination?

I agree, identifying each link as "Page 1" etc makes it more difficult to
select the link from a links list ... They all begin with P instead of each
being uniquely first letter pickable by number. I'm not keen on the term
Pagination either, users are more likely to understand "Other pages" "more
results" or similar. The principle's good, but overdone.

Bim
having the

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf
Of Jeremy Echols
Sent: 03 November 2017 22:09
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: [WebAIM] Accessible pagination?

I'm looking at this article: http://www.a11ymatters.com/pattern/pagination/

It seems like the author is suggesting extremely verbose pagination for
non-sighted users. This feels like a lot of extra noise to me, but I'm not
an AT user, so I really don't know. It seems like once you get into the
region, you'll know that the region is for pagination navigation (as per the
aria-label on the "ul" element). Is there really a need to label every one
of those "Goto Page X"? I could see an argument for "Page X", but even that
feels like unnecessary verbosity.

Help!
http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
http://www.avg.com

From: Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Date: Mon, Nov 06 2017 6:53AM
Subject: Re: Accessible pagination?
← Previous message | Next message →

Agree with Tim.
I think "go to page 1" is a goo screen reader text for pagination links.
The screen reader does not see the ARIA landmark when viewing links
out of context, e.g. in a listbox, and "1" is not vry descriptive link
text.
The extra second or so that it takes the screen rader to say "page 1"
or "go to page 1" is not a screen reader user deterrant in my
experience (again, testing with real end users is always the most
valuable source of feedback).

I wish the author ha expounded a bit on this widget, e.g. showed it in
context of an actual page. I think "previous" and "Next" options e.
should b cded as buttons to distinguish them from the links, and that
the number of results per page should be coded as live region
headings.



On 11/6/17, Tim Harshbarger < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Just to offer another perspective, I do not think that this pattern is too
> verbose or problematic as a screen reader user. For me, too verbose is
> something like a group label for radio buttons that is a paragraph long.
> That tends to feel verbose. However, I know other screen reader users might
> feel differently.
>
> My thought is that if you follow this pattern, someone using a screen reader
> would clearly get the idea that this part of the page is the pagination. I
> also think you could use only parts of this pattern and end up with
> something that might be accessible as well, but depending on what you do it
> might not be as clear to screen reader users who don't spend their days
> reviewing, discussing, and testing user interfaces like I do.
>
> This is one of those situations where being able to test with real end users
> would help. You could find out if there are any major differences between
> patterns.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf
> Of Bim Egan
> Sent: Friday, November 3, 2017 5:22 PM
> To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Accessible pagination?
>
> I agree, identifying each link as "Page 1" etc makes it more difficult to
> select the link from a links list ... They all begin with P instead of each
> being uniquely first letter pickable by number. I'm not keen on the term
> Pagination either, users are more likely to understand "Other pages" "more
> results" or similar. The principle's good, but overdone.
>
> Bim
> having the
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf
> Of Jeremy Echols
> Sent: 03 November 2017 22:09
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: [WebAIM] Accessible pagination?
>
> I'm looking at this article: http://www.a11ymatters.com/pattern/pagination/
>
> It seems like the author is suggesting extremely verbose pagination for
> non-sighted users. This feels like a lot of extra noise to me, but I'm not
> an AT user, so I really don't know. It seems like once you get into the
> region, you'll know that the region is for pagination navigation (as per
> the
> aria-label on the "ul" element). Is there really a need to label every one
> of those "Goto Page X"? I could see an argument for "Page X", but even
> that
> feels like unnecessary verbosity.
>
> Help!
> > > http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> http://www.avg.com
>
> > > > > > > > >


--
Work hard. Have fun. Make history.

From: Jeremy Echols
Date: Mon, Nov 06 2017 10:23AM
Subject: Re: Accessible pagination?
← Previous message | Next message →

Thanks, everybody, the input is invaluable.

Hmm, I'm getting the navigation label read in NVDA and Firefox. Is this not typical? I tab into the list and hear "Pages navigation landmark list with 8 items ..." I was hoping this made enough sense, but maybe the navigation landmark is just getting lost in the noise.

I'll just add "Page" to everything just in case, but this is one of these areas things are so confusing to me.

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Sent: Monday, November 06, 2017 5:54 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Accessible pagination?

Agree with Tim.
I think "go to page 1" is a goo screen reader text for pagination links.
The screen reader does not see the ARIA landmark when viewing links out of context, e.g. in a listbox, and "1" is not vry descriptive link text.
The extra second or so that it takes the screen rader to say "page 1"
or "go to page 1" is not a screen reader user deterrant in my experience (again, testing with real end users is always the most valuable source of feedback).

I wish the author ha expounded a bit on this widget, e.g. showed it in context of an actual page. I think "previous" and "Next" options e.
should b cded as buttons to distinguish them from the links, and that the number of results per page should be coded as live region headings.



On 11/6/17, Tim Harshbarger < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Just to offer another perspective, I do not think that this pattern is
> too verbose or problematic as a screen reader user. For me, too
> verbose is something like a group label for radio buttons that is a paragraph long.
> That tends to feel verbose. However, I know other screen reader users
> might feel differently.
>
> My thought is that if you follow this pattern, someone using a screen
> reader would clearly get the idea that this part of the page is the
> pagination. I also think you could use only parts of this pattern and
> end up with something that might be accessible as well, but depending
> on what you do it might not be as clear to screen reader users who
> don't spend their days reviewing, discussing, and testing user interfaces like I do.
>
> This is one of those situations where being able to test with real end
> users would help. You could find out if there are any major
> differences between patterns.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> Behalf Of Bim Egan
> Sent: Friday, November 3, 2017 5:22 PM
> To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Accessible pagination?
>
> I agree, identifying each link as "Page 1" etc makes it more difficult
> to select the link from a links list ... They all begin with P instead
> of each being uniquely first letter pickable by number. I'm not keen
> on the term Pagination either, users are more likely to understand
> "Other pages" "more results" or similar. The principle's good, but overdone.
>
> Bim
> having the
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> Behalf Of Jeremy Echols
> Sent: 03 November 2017 22:09
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: [WebAIM] Accessible pagination?
>
> I'm looking at this article:
> http://www.a11ymatters.com/pattern/pagination/
>
> It seems like the author is suggesting extremely verbose pagination
> for non-sighted users. This feels like a lot of extra noise to me,
> but I'm not an AT user, so I really don't know. It seems like once
> you get into the region, you'll know that the region is for pagination
> navigation (as per the aria-label on the "ul" element). Is there
> really a need to label every one of those "Goto Page X"? I could see
> an argument for "Page X", but even that feels like unnecessary
> verbosity.
>
> Help!
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> http://www.avg.com
>
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >


--
Work hard. Have fun. Make history.

From: Bim Egan
Date: Mon, Nov 06 2017 10:36AM
Subject: Re: Accessible pagination?
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Jeremy,
You're not the only one confused. <smiles>
Accessibility isn't an exact science. Well, not science at all. So much is
left to interpretation and every one of us has our own unique experience.

the down side is that with so many people with extraordinary expertise
coming from every different directions, it may be a while before we can
avoid confusing the developers and other clients. The up side is that none
of us will have time to retire.

Keep the faith ... And strong.

Bim



-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf
Of Jeremy Echols
Sent: 06 November 2017 17:23
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Accessible pagination?

Thanks, everybody, the input is invaluable.

Hmm, I'm getting the navigation label read in NVDA and Firefox. Is this not
typical? I tab into the list and hear "Pages navigation landmark list with
8 items ..." I was hoping this made enough sense, but maybe the navigation
landmark is just getting lost in the noise.

I'll just add "Page" to everything just in case, but this is one of these
areas things are so confusing to me.

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf
Of Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Sent: Monday, November 06, 2017 5:54 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Accessible pagination?

Agree with Tim.
I think "go to page 1" is a goo screen reader text for pagination links.
The screen reader does not see the ARIA landmark when viewing links out of
context, e.g. in a listbox, and "1" is not vry descriptive link text.
The extra second or so that it takes the screen rader to say "page 1"
or "go to page 1" is not a screen reader user deterrant in my experience
(again, testing with real end users is always the most valuable source of
feedback).

I wish the author ha expounded a bit on this widget, e.g. showed it in
context of an actual page. I think "previous" and "Next" options e.
should b cded as buttons to distinguish them from the links, and that the
number of results per page should be coded as live region headings.



On 11/6/17, Tim Harshbarger < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Just to offer another perspective, I do not think that this pattern is
> too verbose or problematic as a screen reader user. For me, too
> verbose is something like a group label for radio buttons that is a
paragraph long.
> That tends to feel verbose. However, I know other screen reader users
> might feel differently.
>
> My thought is that if you follow this pattern, someone using a screen
> reader would clearly get the idea that this part of the page is the
> pagination. I also think you could use only parts of this pattern and
> end up with something that might be accessible as well, but depending
> on what you do it might not be as clear to screen reader users who
> don't spend their days reviewing, discussing, and testing user interfaces
like I do.
>
> This is one of those situations where being able to test with real end
> users would help. You could find out if there are any major
> differences between patterns.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> Behalf Of Bim Egan
> Sent: Friday, November 3, 2017 5:22 PM
> To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Accessible pagination?
>
> I agree, identifying each link as "Page 1" etc makes it more difficult
> to select the link from a links list ... They all begin with P instead
> of each being uniquely first letter pickable by number. I'm not keen
> on the term Pagination either, users are more likely to understand
> "Other pages" "more results" or similar. The principle's good, but
overdone.
>
> Bim
> having the
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> Behalf Of Jeremy Echols
> Sent: 03 November 2017 22:09
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: [WebAIM] Accessible pagination?
>
> I'm looking at this article:
> http://www.a11ymatters.com/pattern/pagination/
>
> It seems like the author is suggesting extremely verbose pagination
> for non-sighted users. This feels like a lot of extra noise to me,
> but I'm not an AT user, so I really don't know. It seems like once
> you get into the region, you'll know that the region is for pagination
> navigation (as per the aria-label on the "ul" element). Is there
> really a need to label every one of those "Goto Page X"? I could see
> an argument for "Page X", but even that feels like unnecessary
> verbosity.
>
> Help!
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> http://www.avg.com
>
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >


--
Work hard. Have fun. Make history.
http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
http://webaim.org/discussion/archives

From: Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Date: Mon, Nov 06 2017 10:49AM
Subject: Re: Accessible pagination?
← Previous message | No next message

NVDA provides the context hen you are navigateing through the page
with tab key (or arrow keys).
But some users use the shortcut NVDA key- f7 (I think) to bring up
list of all the links on the page and navigate that way (maybe I am
weird, but I admit I don't like that approach and have never done it).
If you are interacting with that list you don't see any programmatic
context n the page, and the link text has to be sufficiently
descriptive.
Again, as Bim explained so nicely, this is more of an art than science.


On 11/6/17, Bim Egan < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Hi Jeremy,
> You're not the only one confused. <smiles>
> Accessibility isn't an exact science. Well, not science at all. So much is
> left to interpretation and every one of us has our own unique experience.
>
> the down side is that with so many people with extraordinary expertise
> coming from every different directions, it may be a while before we can
> avoid confusing the developers and other clients. The up side is that none
> of us will have time to retire.
>
> Keep the faith ... And strong.
>
> Bim
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf
> Of Jeremy Echols
> Sent: 06 November 2017 17:23
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Accessible pagination?
>
> Thanks, everybody, the input is invaluable.
>
> Hmm, I'm getting the navigation label read in NVDA and Firefox. Is this not
> typical? I tab into the list and hear "Pages navigation landmark list with
> 8 items ..." I was hoping this made enough sense, but maybe the navigation
> landmark is just getting lost in the noise.
>
> I'll just add "Page" to everything just in case, but this is one of these
> areas things are so confusing to me.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf
> Of Birkir R. Gunnarsson
> Sent: Monday, November 06, 2017 5:54 AM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Accessible pagination?
>
> Agree with Tim.
> I think "go to page 1" is a goo screen reader text for pagination links.
> The screen reader does not see the ARIA landmark when viewing links out of
> context, e.g. in a listbox, and "1" is not vry descriptive link text.
> The extra second or so that it takes the screen rader to say "page 1"
> or "go to page 1" is not a screen reader user deterrant in my experience
> (again, testing with real end users is always the most valuable source of
> feedback).
>
> I wish the author ha expounded a bit on this widget, e.g. showed it in
> context of an actual page. I think "previous" and "Next" options e.
> should b cded as buttons to distinguish them from the links, and that the
> number of results per page should be coded as live region headings.
>
>
>
> On 11/6/17, Tim Harshbarger < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>> Just to offer another perspective, I do not think that this pattern is
>> too verbose or problematic as a screen reader user. For me, too
>> verbose is something like a group label for radio buttons that is a
> paragraph long.
>> That tends to feel verbose. However, I know other screen reader users
>> might feel differently.
>>
>> My thought is that if you follow this pattern, someone using a screen
>> reader would clearly get the idea that this part of the page is the
>> pagination. I also think you could use only parts of this pattern and
>> end up with something that might be accessible as well, but depending
>> on what you do it might not be as clear to screen reader users who
>> don't spend their days reviewing, discussing, and testing user interfaces
> like I do.
>>
>> This is one of those situations where being able to test with real end
>> users would help. You could find out if there are any major
>> differences between patterns.
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
>> Behalf Of Bim Egan
>> Sent: Friday, November 3, 2017 5:22 PM
>> To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Accessible pagination?
>>
>> I agree, identifying each link as "Page 1" etc makes it more difficult
>> to select the link from a links list ... They all begin with P instead
>> of each being uniquely first letter pickable by number. I'm not keen
>> on the term Pagination either, users are more likely to understand
>> "Other pages" "more results" or similar. The principle's good, but
> overdone.
>>
>> Bim
>> having the
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
>> Behalf Of Jeremy Echols
>> Sent: 03 November 2017 22:09
>> To: WebAIM Discussion List
>> Subject: [WebAIM] Accessible pagination?
>>
>> I'm looking at this article:
>> http://www.a11ymatters.com/pattern/pagination/
>>
>> It seems like the author is suggesting extremely verbose pagination
>> for non-sighted users. This feels like a lot of extra noise to me,
>> but I'm not an AT user, so I really don't know. It seems like once
>> you get into the region, you'll know that the region is for pagination
>> navigation (as per the aria-label on the "ul" element). Is there
>> really a need to label every one of those "Goto Page X"? I could see
>> an argument for "Page X", but even that feels like unnecessary
>> verbosity.
>>
>> Help!
>> >> >> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> >>
>>
>> ---
>> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
>> http://www.avg.com
>>
>> >> >> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> >> >> >> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> >>
>
>
> --
> Work hard. Have fun. Make history.
> > > http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >
> > > > >


--
Work hard. Have fun. Make history.