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Thread: Accessible org charts

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From: Lucy Greco
Date: Wed, Nov 29 2017 11:31AM
Subject: Accessible org charts
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Hello:

We have been seeing a lot of progress in the world of data access with
products like High Charts <https://www.highcharts.com/> and some of the
products I am working with from Progressive Access
<https://progressiveaccess.com/projects.php>. But the one thing I am
missing that is in big demand is an accessible "organizational chart" (org
chart) tool. Does anyone have ideas on where we can find something to help
produce an accessible org chart?

Thanks,
Lucy

Lucia Greco
Web Accessibility Evangelist
IST - Architecture, Platforms, and Integration
University of California, Berkeley
(510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
Follow me on twitter @accessaces

From: Steve Green
Date: Wed, Nov 29 2017 5:23PM
Subject: Re: Accessible org charts
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The root cause of this problem is that there is not a universally agreed set of semantics for an organisational chart. Or if there is, I'm not aware of it.

Some aspects of the structure of an org chart correspond to a nested list, such as parent and child relationships and groups of people at the same level. However, other aspects do not correspond to any HTML semantics. For instance, two subordinates of one person may be at different levels of seniority (and hence shown at different vertical positions in the org chart) even though they are both one step removed from the same person.

Also, org charts often have sideways relationships that may mean various things and there can be complex relationships such as when a person has "dotted line" responsibilities to people other than their line manager.

Until there is an agreed set of semantics for all these relationships, it will not be possible to represent the chart in HTML in a way that people will understand, and it's very possible that new HTML semantics would need to be created.

Steve Green
Managing Director
Test Partners Ltd


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Lucy Greco
Sent: 29 November 2017 18:32
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: [WebAIM] Accessible org charts

Hello:

We have been seeing a lot of progress in the world of data access with products like High Charts <https://www.highcharts.com/> and some of the products I am working with from Progressive Access <https://progressiveaccess.com/projects.php>. But the one thing I am missing that is in big demand is an accessible "organizational chart" (org
chart) tool. Does anyone have ideas on where we can find something to help produce an accessible org chart?

Thanks,
Lucy

Lucia Greco
Web Accessibility Evangelist
IST - Architecture, Platforms, and Integration University of California, Berkeley
(510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
Follow me on twitter @accessaces

From: Lucy Greco
Date: Wed, Nov 29 2017 5:36PM
Subject: Re: Accessible org charts
← Previous message | Next message →

steev thanks for the reply kinda makes me ask then what is the tools
that are makeing the inaccessable ones doing i e. pitcktochart and tablo i
am looking for more accessable answers to these tools more then any thing
because i can't just say don't use the inaccessable tool i need to say what
to use insted

Lucia Greco
Web Accessibility Evangelist
IST - Architecture, Platforms, and Integration
University of California, Berkeley
(510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
Follow me on twitter @accessaces


On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 4:23 PM, Steve Green < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> wrote:

> The root cause of this problem is that there is not a universally agreed
> set of semantics for an organisational chart. Or if there is, I'm not aware
> of it.
>
> Some aspects of the structure of an org chart correspond to a nested list,
> such as parent and child relationships and groups of people at the same
> level. However, other aspects do not correspond to any HTML semantics. For
> instance, two subordinates of one person may be at different levels of
> seniority (and hence shown at different vertical positions in the org
> chart) even though they are both one step removed from the same person.
>
> Also, org charts often have sideways relationships that may mean various
> things and there can be complex relationships such as when a person has
> "dotted line" responsibilities to people other than their line manager.
>
> Until there is an agreed set of semantics for all these relationships, it
> will not be possible to represent the chart in HTML in a way that people
> will understand, and it's very possible that new HTML semantics would need
> to be created.
>
> Steve Green
> Managing Director
> Test Partners Ltd
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> Behalf Of Lucy Greco
> Sent: 29 November 2017 18:32
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: [WebAIM] Accessible org charts
>
> Hello:
>
> We have been seeing a lot of progress in the world of data access with
> products like High Charts <https://www.highcharts.com/> and some of the
> products I am working with from Progressive Access <
> https://progressiveaccess.com/projects.php>. But the one thing I am
> missing that is in big demand is an accessible "organizational chart" (org
> chart) tool. Does anyone have ideas on where we can find something to help
> produce an accessible org chart?
>
> Thanks,
> Lucy
>
> Lucia Greco
> Web Accessibility Evangelist
> IST - Architecture, Platforms, and Integration University of California,
> Berkeley
> (510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
> http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
> Follow me on twitter @accessaces
> > > at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > > >

From: Steve Green
Date: Wed, Nov 29 2017 5:50PM
Subject: Re: Accessible org charts
← Previous message | Next message →

I am not familiar with either of those tools, but I don't think there is (or can be) a solution at the moment. Some content simply can't be represented using the HTML elements and attributes that we currently have.

For a simple organisation I think a nested list would be the closest you can get semantically, but I'm not at all sure a screen reader user would be able to make sense of it. It would be interesting to run some user tests.

Personally, I don't feel obliged to solve every problem a client comes to us with. I simply tell them it's not possible if I really think that is the case after considering all the options.

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Lucy Greco
Sent: 30 November 2017 00:36
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Accessible org charts

steev thanks for the reply kinda makes me ask then what is the tools that are makeing the inaccessable ones doing i e. pitcktochart and tablo i am looking for more accessable answers to these tools more then any thing because i can't just say don't use the inaccessable tool i need to say what to use insted

Lucia Greco
Web Accessibility Evangelist
IST - Architecture, Platforms, and Integration University of California, Berkeley
(510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
Follow me on twitter @accessaces


On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 4:23 PM, Steve Green < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> wrote:

> The root cause of this problem is that there is not a universally
> agreed set of semantics for an organisational chart. Or if there is,
> I'm not aware of it.
>
> Some aspects of the structure of an org chart correspond to a nested
> list, such as parent and child relationships and groups of people at
> the same level. However, other aspects do not correspond to any HTML
> semantics. For instance, two subordinates of one person may be at
> different levels of seniority (and hence shown at different vertical
> positions in the org
> chart) even though they are both one step removed from the same person.
>
> Also, org charts often have sideways relationships that may mean
> various things and there can be complex relationships such as when a
> person has "dotted line" responsibilities to people other than their line manager.
>
> Until there is an agreed set of semantics for all these relationships,
> it will not be possible to represent the chart in HTML in a way that
> people will understand, and it's very possible that new HTML semantics
> would need to be created.
>
> Steve Green
> Managing Director
> Test Partners Ltd
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> Behalf Of Lucy Greco
> Sent: 29 November 2017 18:32
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: [WebAIM] Accessible org charts
>
> Hello:
>
> We have been seeing a lot of progress in the world of data access with
> products like High Charts <https://www.highcharts.com/> and some of
> the products I am working with from Progressive Access <
> https://progressiveaccess.com/projects.php>. But the one thing I am
> missing that is in big demand is an accessible "organizational chart"
> (org
> chart) tool. Does anyone have ideas on where we can find something to
> help produce an accessible org chart?
>
> Thanks,
> Lucy
>
> Lucia Greco
> Web Accessibility Evangelist
> IST - Architecture, Platforms, and Integration University of
> California, Berkeley
> (510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
> http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
> Follow me on twitter @accessaces
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >

From: Srinivasu Chakravarthula
Date: Thu, Nov 30 2017 1:20AM
Subject: Re: Accessible org charts
← Previous message | No next message

If amCharts solves this problem, then worth exploring it. PayPal's
Accessibility team has built an accessibility plugin for amCharts a few
years ago. Please refer
https://www.amcharts.com/accessibility/accessible-charts/

Regards,

Srinivasu Chakravarthula - Twitter: http://twitter.com/CSrinivasu/
Website: http://www.srinivasu.org | http://serveominclusion.com

Let's create an inclusive web!

Lead Accessibility Consultant, Informatica


On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 6:20 AM, Steve Green < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> wrote:

> I am not familiar with either of those tools, but I don't think there is
> (or can be) a solution at the moment. Some content simply can't be
> represented using the HTML elements and attributes that we currently have.
>
> For a simple organisation I think a nested list would be the closest you
> can get semantically, but I'm not at all sure a screen reader user would be
> able to make sense of it. It would be interesting to run some user tests.
>
> Personally, I don't feel obliged to solve every problem a client comes to
> us with. I simply tell them it's not possible if I really think that is the
> case after considering all the options.
>
> Steve
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> Behalf Of Lucy Greco
> Sent: 30 November 2017 00:36
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Accessible org charts
>
> steev thanks for the reply kinda makes me ask then what is the tools
> that are makeing the inaccessable ones doing i e. pitcktochart and tablo i
> am looking for more accessable answers to these tools more then any thing
> because i can't just say don't use the inaccessable tool i need to say what
> to use insted
>
> Lucia Greco
> Web Accessibility Evangelist
> IST - Architecture, Platforms, and Integration University of California,
> Berkeley
> (510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
> http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
> Follow me on twitter @accessaces
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 4:23 PM, Steve Green < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = .
> uk
> > wrote:
>
> > The root cause of this problem is that there is not a universally
> > agreed set of semantics for an organisational chart. Or if there is,
> > I'm not aware of it.
> >
> > Some aspects of the structure of an org chart correspond to a nested
> > list, such as parent and child relationships and groups of people at
> > the same level. However, other aspects do not correspond to any HTML
> > semantics. For instance, two subordinates of one person may be at
> > different levels of seniority (and hence shown at different vertical
> > positions in the org
> > chart) even though they are both one step removed from the same person.
> >
> > Also, org charts often have sideways relationships that may mean
> > various things and there can be complex relationships such as when a
> > person has "dotted line" responsibilities to people other than their
> line manager.
> >
> > Until there is an agreed set of semantics for all these relationships,
> > it will not be possible to represent the chart in HTML in a way that
> > people will understand, and it's very possible that new HTML semantics
> > would need to be created.
> >
> > Steve Green
> > Managing Director
> > Test Partners Ltd
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> > Behalf Of Lucy Greco
> > Sent: 29 November 2017 18:32
> > To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> > Subject: [WebAIM] Accessible org charts
> >
> > Hello:
> >
> > We have been seeing a lot of progress in the world of data access with
> > products like High Charts <https://www.highcharts.com/> and some of
> > the products I am working with from Progressive Access <
> > https://progressiveaccess.com/projects.php>. But the one thing I am
> > missing that is in big demand is an accessible "organizational chart"
> > (org
> > chart) tool. Does anyone have ideas on where we can find something to
> > help produce an accessible org chart?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Lucy
> >
> > Lucia Greco
> > Web Accessibility Evangelist
> > IST - Architecture, Platforms, and Integration University of
> > California, Berkeley
> > (510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
> > http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
> > Follow me on twitter @accessaces
> > > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > >
> > > at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > > >