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Number of posts in this thread: 10 (In chronological order)

From: Alexander Karelas
Date: Sun, Apr 29 2018 12:18AM
Subject: How to handle Heading under Section
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My page has 4 sections.

Each of the 4 sections contains a big heading.

My question is:

Should I label the 4 sections? If so, I would ideally like to label them
with the 4 headings (with aria-labelledby, maybe).

But when I do that, NVDA reads the heading twice when I press 'h' to
browse the headings. It reads it once because I entered the section, and
it reads it once more because it's reading the heading itself.

Is that considered annoying? I mean, when the user presses 'h' 4 times
to browse the 4 headings, they will hear each heading twice after each
keypress.

How do you think I should handle this?

Thank you,

From: glen walker
Date: Sun, Apr 29 2018 12:57AM
Subject: Re: How to handle Heading under Section
← Previous message | Next message →

A <section> <https://www.w3.org/TR/html53/sections.html#the-section-element>
element has a region role <https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.1/#region> by
default, and a region is a landmark. While it's good to have bypass blocks
that a screen reader can use, it might be overkill to have both a heading
and a landmark. The problem is you might have some screen reader users
that like to navigate by headings and others that like to navigate by
landmarks. Hearing the heading twice is not ideal, but is certainly better
than not being labeled.

Without knowing more details about your situation, my initial reaction is
that the <section> is not needed. If you can't prevent the <section> from
being generated, then you might want to consider removing the landmark role
of the <section>. You can do this two ways:

1. If a <section> doesn't have a label (aria-label or aria-labelledby),
then most screen readers ignore the region as a landmark.
2. You can set role="presentation"



On Sun, Apr 29, 2018 at 12:18 AM, Alexander Karelas < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:

> My page has 4 sections.
>
> Each of the 4 sections contains a big heading.
>
> My question is:
>
> Should I label the 4 sections? If so, I would ideally like to label them
> with the 4 headings (with aria-labelledby, maybe).
>
> But when I do that, NVDA reads the heading twice when I press 'h' to
> browse the headings. It reads it once because I entered the section, and
> it reads it once more because it's reading the heading itself.
>
> Is that considered annoying? I mean, when the user presses 'h' 4 times
> to browse the 4 headings, they will hear each heading twice after each
> keypress.
>
> How do you think I should handle this?
>
> Thank you,
>
>
> > > > >

From: Jonathan Cohn
Date: Sun, Apr 29 2018 10:17AM
Subject: Re: How to handle Heading under Section
← Previous message | Next message →

On the other hand Screen readers probably could be adjusted so that they would not double speak when the label of the section just entered is the same as the element with virtual focus.

-Jonathan

Best wishes,

Jonathan Cohn



> On Apr 29, 2018, at 2:57 AM, glen walker < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> A <section> <https://www.w3.org/TR/html53/sections.html#the-section-element>
> element has a region role <https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.1/#region> by
> default, and a region is a landmark. While it's good to have bypass blocks
> that a screen reader can use, it might be overkill to have both a heading
> and a landmark. The problem is you might have some screen reader users
> that like to navigate by headings and others that like to navigate by
> landmarks. Hearing the heading twice is not ideal, but is certainly better
> than not being labeled.
>
> Without knowing more details about your situation, my initial reaction is
> that the <section> is not needed. If you can't prevent the <section> from
> being generated, then you might want to consider removing the landmark role
> of the <section>. You can do this two ways:
>
> 1. If a <section> doesn't have a label (aria-label or aria-labelledby),
> then most screen readers ignore the region as a landmark.
> 2. You can set role="presentation"
>
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 29, 2018 at 12:18 AM, Alexander Karelas < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> wrote:
>
>> My page has 4 sections.
>>
>> Each of the 4 sections contains a big heading.
>>
>> My question is:
>>
>> Should I label the 4 sections? If so, I would ideally like to label them
>> with the 4 headings (with aria-labelledby, maybe).
>>
>> But when I do that, NVDA reads the heading twice when I press 'h' to
>> browse the headings. It reads it once because I entered the section, and
>> it reads it once more because it's reading the heading itself.
>>
>> Is that considered annoying? I mean, when the user presses 'h' 4 times
>> to browse the 4 headings, they will hear each heading twice after each
>> keypress.
>>
>> How do you think I should handle this?
>>
>> Thank you,
>>
>>
>> >> >> >> >>
> > > >

From: glen walker
Date: Sun, Apr 29 2018 11:46AM
Subject: Re: How to handle Heading under Section
← Previous message | Next message →

NVDA does let me turn off landscape announcements but it turns it off
everywhere. I'm not sure if I could turn it off just for a particular
site. So in theory you could ask your users to change their screen reader
settings to accommodate your design decisions.



On Sun, Apr 29, 2018 at 10:17 AM, Jonathan Cohn < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:

> On the other hand Screen readers probably could be adjusted so that they
> would not double speak when the label of the section just entered is the
> same as the element with virtual focus.
>
> -Jonathan
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Jonathan Cohn
>
>
>
> > On Apr 29, 2018, at 2:57 AM, glen walker < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> >
> > A <section> <https://www.w3.org/TR/html53/sections.html#the-section-
> element>
> > element has a region role <https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.1/#region>
> by
> > default, and a region is a landmark. While it's good to have bypass
> blocks
> > that a screen reader can use, it might be overkill to have both a heading
> > and a landmark. The problem is you might have some screen reader users
> > that like to navigate by headings and others that like to navigate by
> > landmarks. Hearing the heading twice is not ideal, but is certainly
> better
> > than not being labeled.
> >
> > Without knowing more details about your situation, my initial reaction is
> > that the <section> is not needed. If you can't prevent the <section>
> from
> > being generated, then you might want to consider removing the landmark
> role
> > of the <section>. You can do this two ways:
> >
> > 1. If a <section> doesn't have a label (aria-label or aria-labelledby),
> > then most screen readers ignore the region as a landmark.
> > 2. You can set role="presentation"
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Apr 29, 2018 at 12:18 AM, Alexander Karelas <
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> > wrote:
> >
> >> My page has 4 sections.
> >>
> >> Each of the 4 sections contains a big heading.
> >>
> >> My question is:
> >>
> >> Should I label the 4 sections? If so, I would ideally like to label them
> >> with the 4 headings (with aria-labelledby, maybe).
> >>
> >> But when I do that, NVDA reads the heading twice when I press 'h' to
> >> browse the headings. It reads it once because I entered the section, and
> >> it reads it once more because it's reading the heading itself.
> >>
> >> Is that considered annoying? I mean, when the user presses 'h' 4 times
> >> to browse the 4 headings, they will hear each heading twice after each
> >> keypress.
> >>
> >> How do you think I should handle this?
> >>
> >> Thank you,
> >>
> >>
> >> > >> > >> > >> > >>
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > >

From: Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Date: Sun, Apr 29 2018 12:09PM
Subject: Re: How to handle Heading under Section
← Previous message | Next message →

My opinion (not hard truth, just opinion) is that ARIA landmarks are
most useful when describing visual structure (fixed sections) of the
page, whereas headings describe the structure of the content.
so landmarks are highly useful for separateing page header, main body
and footer, also useful for marking fixed sections of the page like a
stock ticker (complementary) navigation menus (account navigation,
left navigation) etc. They are an equivalent to seeing sections of the
page at fixed locations on the screen.

I also think landmarks quickly lose their usefulness when you have too
many of them, I'd say a rule of thumb should be no more than 5
landmarks for a simple page, maybe 8 for a massive page.

In your case, without seeing the page, I don't think you should assign
landmarks to sections of content already identified with headings. It
will increase verbosity with very little actual benefit.
a region landmark without a label is not supposed to be a landmark. If
a screen reader presents one as such, file an issue with the screen
reader vendor.




On 4/29/18, glen walker < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> NVDA does let me turn off landscape announcements but it turns it off
> everywhere. I'm not sure if I could turn it off just for a particular
> site. So in theory you could ask your users to change their screen reader
> settings to accommodate your design decisions.
>
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 29, 2018 at 10:17 AM, Jonathan Cohn < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> wrote:
>
>> On the other hand Screen readers probably could be adjusted so that they
>> would not double speak when the label of the section just entered is the
>> same as the element with virtual focus.
>>
>> -Jonathan
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>> Jonathan Cohn
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Apr 29, 2018, at 2:57 AM, glen walker < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>> >
>> > A <section> <https://www.w3.org/TR/html53/sections.html#the-section-
>> element>
>> > element has a region role <https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.1/#region>
>> by
>> > default, and a region is a landmark. While it's good to have bypass
>> blocks
>> > that a screen reader can use, it might be overkill to have both a
>> > heading
>> > and a landmark. The problem is you might have some screen reader users
>> > that like to navigate by headings and others that like to navigate by
>> > landmarks. Hearing the heading twice is not ideal, but is certainly
>> better
>> > than not being labeled.
>> >
>> > Without knowing more details about your situation, my initial reaction
>> > is
>> > that the <section> is not needed. If you can't prevent the <section>
>> from
>> > being generated, then you might want to consider removing the landmark
>> role
>> > of the <section>. You can do this two ways:
>> >
>> > 1. If a <section> doesn't have a label (aria-label or aria-labelledby),
>> > then most screen readers ignore the region as a landmark.
>> > 2. You can set role="presentation"
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sun, Apr 29, 2018 at 12:18 AM, Alexander Karelas <
>> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> My page has 4 sections.
>> >>
>> >> Each of the 4 sections contains a big heading.
>> >>
>> >> My question is:
>> >>
>> >> Should I label the 4 sections? If so, I would ideally like to label
>> >> them
>> >> with the 4 headings (with aria-labelledby, maybe).
>> >>
>> >> But when I do that, NVDA reads the heading twice when I press 'h' to
>> >> browse the headings. It reads it once because I entered the section,
>> >> and
>> >> it reads it once more because it's reading the heading itself.
>> >>
>> >> Is that considered annoying? I mean, when the user presses 'h' 4 times
>> >> to browse the 4 headings, they will hear each heading twice after each
>> >> keypress.
>> >>
>> >> How do you think I should handle this?
>> >>
>> >> Thank you,
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>
>> > >> > >> > >> > >>
>> >> >> >> >>
> > > > >


--
Work hard. Have fun. Make history.

From: chagnon@pubcom.com
Date: Sun, Apr 29 2018 1:29PM
Subject: Re: How to handle Heading under Section
← Previous message | Next message →

Birkir's opinion is the most useful and practical explanation of ARIA landmarks I've read to date.
Thank you Birkir!
And, yes, my shop agrees with Birkir.

— — —
Bevi Chagnon, founder/CEO | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
— — —
PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing
consulting • training • development • design • sec. 508 services
Upcoming classes at www.PubCom.com/classes
— — —


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2018 2:10 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] How to handle Heading under Section

My opinion (not hard truth, just opinion) is that ARIA landmarks are most useful when describing visual structure (fixed sections) of the page, whereas headings describe the structure of the content.
so landmarks are highly useful for separateing page header, main body and footer, also useful for marking fixed sections of the page like a stock ticker (complementary) navigation menus (account navigation, left navigation) etc. They are an equivalent to seeing sections of the page at fixed locations on the screen.

I also think landmarks quickly lose their usefulness when you have too many of them, I'd say a rule of thumb should be no more than 5 landmarks for a simple page, maybe 8 for a massive page.

In your case, without seeing the page, I don't think you should assign landmarks to sections of content already identified with headings. It will increase verbosity with very little actual benefit.
a region landmark without a label is not supposed to be a landmark. If a screen reader presents one as such, file an issue with the screen reader vendor.




On 4/29/18, glen walker < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> NVDA does let me turn off landscape announcements but it turns it off
> everywhere. I'm not sure if I could turn it off just for a particular
> site. So in theory you could ask your users to change their screen
> reader settings to accommodate your design decisions.
>
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 29, 2018 at 10:17 AM, Jonathan Cohn < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> wrote:
>
>> On the other hand Screen readers probably could be adjusted so that
>> they would not double speak when the label of the section just
>> entered is the same as the element with virtual focus.
>>
>> -Jonathan
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>> Jonathan Cohn
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Apr 29, 2018, at 2:57 AM, glen walker < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>> >
>> > A <section>
>> > <https://www.w3.org/TR/html53/sections.html#the-section-
>> element>
>> > element has a region role
>> > <https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.1/#region>
>> by
>> > default, and a region is a landmark. While it's good to have
>> > bypass
>> blocks
>> > that a screen reader can use, it might be overkill to have both a
>> > heading and a landmark. The problem is you might have some screen
>> > reader users that like to navigate by headings and others that like
>> > to navigate by landmarks. Hearing the heading twice is not ideal,
>> > but is certainly
>> better
>> > than not being labeled.
>> >
>> > Without knowing more details about your situation, my initial
>> > reaction is that the <section> is not needed. If you can't prevent
>> > the <section>
>> from
>> > being generated, then you might want to consider removing the
>> > landmark
>> role
>> > of the <section>. You can do this two ways:
>> >
>> > 1. If a <section> doesn't have a label (aria-label or
>> > aria-labelledby), then most screen readers ignore the region as a landmark.
>> > 2. You can set role="presentation"
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sun, Apr 29, 2018 at 12:18 AM, Alexander Karelas <
>> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> My page has 4 sections.
>> >>
>> >> Each of the 4 sections contains a big heading.
>> >>
>> >> My question is:
>> >>
>> >> Should I label the 4 sections? If so, I would ideally like to
>> >> label them with the 4 headings (with aria-labelledby, maybe).
>> >>
>> >> But when I do that, NVDA reads the heading twice when I press 'h'
>> >> to browse the headings. It reads it once because I entered the
>> >> section, and it reads it once more because it's reading the
>> >> heading itself.
>> >>
>> >> Is that considered annoying? I mean, when the user presses 'h' 4
>> >> times to browse the 4 headings, they will hear each heading twice
>> >> after each keypress.
>> >>
>> >> How do you think I should handle this?
>> >>
>> >> Thank you,
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> >> >> >> >> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> >> >> >>
>> > >> > >> > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> > >>
>> >> >> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> >>
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >


--
Work hard. Have fun. Make history.

From: Alexander Karelas
Date: Sun, Apr 29 2018 11:36PM
Subject: Re: How to handle Heading under Section
← Previous message | Next message →

Here's my page, in case you'd like to look at it, to better assess the
situation: https://forums.baza.gr

The sections (with headings) that I'm talking about are all of the 4
<section> elements on the page.




On 29/04/2018 09:09 μμ, Birkir R. Gunnarsson wrote:
> My opinion (not hard truth, just opinion) is that ARIA landmarks are
> most useful when describing visual structure (fixed sections) of the
> page, whereas headings describe the structure of the content.
> so landmarks are highly useful for separateing page header, main body
> and footer, also useful for marking fixed sections of the page like a
> stock ticker (complementary) navigation menus (account navigation,
> left navigation) etc. They are an equivalent to seeing sections of the
> page at fixed locations on the screen.
>
> I also think landmarks quickly lose their usefulness when you have too
> many of them, I'd say a rule of thumb should be no more than 5
> landmarks for a simple page, maybe 8 for a massive page.
>
> In your case, without seeing the page, I don't think you should assign
> landmarks to sections of content already identified with headings. It
> will increase verbosity with very little actual benefit.
> a region landmark without a label is not supposed to be a landmark. If
> a screen reader presents one as such, file an issue with the screen
> reader vendor.
>
>
>
>
> On 4/29/18, glen walker < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>> NVDA does let me turn off landscape announcements but it turns it off
>> everywhere. I'm not sure if I could turn it off just for a particular
>> site. So in theory you could ask your users to change their screen reader
>> settings to accommodate your design decisions.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Apr 29, 2018 at 10:17 AM, Jonathan Cohn < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On the other hand Screen readers probably could be adjusted so that they
>>> would not double speak when the label of the section just entered is the
>>> same as the element with virtual focus.
>>>
>>> -Jonathan
>>>
>>> Best wishes,
>>>
>>> Jonathan Cohn
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Apr 29, 2018, at 2:57 AM, glen walker < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>>>>
>>>> A <section> <https://www.w3.org/TR/html53/sections.html#the-section-
>>> element>
>>>> element has a region role <https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.1/#region>
>>> by
>>>> default, and a region is a landmark. While it's good to have bypass
>>> blocks
>>>> that a screen reader can use, it might be overkill to have both a
>>>> heading
>>>> and a landmark. The problem is you might have some screen reader users
>>>> that like to navigate by headings and others that like to navigate by
>>>> landmarks. Hearing the heading twice is not ideal, but is certainly
>>> better
>>>> than not being labeled.
>>>>
>>>> Without knowing more details about your situation, my initial reaction
>>>> is
>>>> that the <section> is not needed. If you can't prevent the <section>
>>> from
>>>> being generated, then you might want to consider removing the landmark
>>> role
>>>> of the <section>. You can do this two ways:
>>>>
>>>> 1. If a <section> doesn't have a label (aria-label or aria-labelledby),
>>>> then most screen readers ignore the region as a landmark.
>>>> 2. You can set role="presentation"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Apr 29, 2018 at 12:18 AM, Alexander Karelas <
>>> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> My page has 4 sections.
>>>>>
>>>>> Each of the 4 sections contains a big heading.
>>>>>
>>>>> My question is:
>>>>>
>>>>> Should I label the 4 sections? If so, I would ideally like to label
>>>>> them
>>>>> with the 4 headings (with aria-labelledby, maybe).
>>>>>
>>>>> But when I do that, NVDA reads the heading twice when I press 'h' to
>>>>> browse the headings. It reads it once because I entered the section,
>>>>> and
>>>>> it reads it once more because it's reading the heading itself.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is that considered annoying? I mean, when the user presses 'h' 4 times
>>>>> to browse the 4 headings, they will hear each heading twice after each
>>>>> keypress.
>>>>>
>>>>> How do you think I should handle this?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>
>> >> >> >> >>
>

From: Steve Faulkner
Date: Mon, Apr 30 2018 1:00AM
Subject: Re: How to handle Heading under Section
← Previous message | Next message →

+1 to Birkir section should only be announced as a region if it has an
accessible name.
Ensure that all content is contained a landmark, but only use landmark
elements as macro containers.

This may be helpful
Easy content organisation with HTML5
<https://developer.paciellogroup.com/blog/2015/09/easy-content-organisation-with-html5/>

--

Regards

SteveF
Current Standards Work @W3C
<http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/2015/03/current-standards-work-at-w3c/>;

On 30 April 2018 at 06:36, Alexander Karelas < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Here's my page, in case you'd like to look at it, to better assess the
> situation: https://forums.baza.gr
>
> The sections (with headings) that I'm talking about are all of the 4
> <section> elements on the page.
>
>
>
>
> On 29/04/2018 09:09 μμ, Birkir R. Gunnarsson wrote:
> > My opinion (not hard truth, just opinion) is that ARIA landmarks are
> > most useful when describing visual structure (fixed sections) of the
> > page, whereas headings describe the structure of the content.
> > so landmarks are highly useful for separateing page header, main body
> > and footer, also useful for marking fixed sections of the page like a
> > stock ticker (complementary) navigation menus (account navigation,
> > left navigation) etc. They are an equivalent to seeing sections of the
> > page at fixed locations on the screen.
> >
> > I also think landmarks quickly lose their usefulness when you have too
> > many of them, I'd say a rule of thumb should be no more than 5
> > landmarks for a simple page, maybe 8 for a massive page.
> >
> > In your case, without seeing the page, I don't think you should assign
> > landmarks to sections of content already identified with headings. It
> > will increase verbosity with very little actual benefit.
> > a region landmark without a label is not supposed to be a landmark. If
> > a screen reader presents one as such, file an issue with the screen
> > reader vendor.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 4/29/18, glen walker < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> >> NVDA does let me turn off landscape announcements but it turns it off
> >> everywhere. I'm not sure if I could turn it off just for a particular
> >> site. So in theory you could ask your users to change their screen
> reader
> >> settings to accommodate your design decisions.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sun, Apr 29, 2018 at 10:17 AM, Jonathan Cohn < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On the other hand Screen readers probably could be adjusted so that
> they
> >>> would not double speak when the label of the section just entered is
> the
> >>> same as the element with virtual focus.
> >>>
> >>> -Jonathan
> >>>
> >>> Best wishes,
> >>>
> >>> Jonathan Cohn
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> On Apr 29, 2018, at 2:57 AM, glen walker < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> A <section> <https://www.w3.org/TR/html53/sections.html#the-section-
> >>> element>
> >>>> element has a region role <https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.1/#region
> >
> >>> by
> >>>> default, and a region is a landmark. While it's good to have bypass
> >>> blocks
> >>>> that a screen reader can use, it might be overkill to have both a
> >>>> heading
> >>>> and a landmark. The problem is you might have some screen reader
> users
> >>>> that like to navigate by headings and others that like to navigate by
> >>>> landmarks. Hearing the heading twice is not ideal, but is certainly
> >>> better
> >>>> than not being labeled.
> >>>>
> >>>> Without knowing more details about your situation, my initial reaction
> >>>> is
> >>>> that the <section> is not needed. If you can't prevent the <section>
> >>> from
> >>>> being generated, then you might want to consider removing the landmark
> >>> role
> >>>> of the <section>. You can do this two ways:
> >>>>
> >>>> 1. If a <section> doesn't have a label (aria-label or
> aria-labelledby),
> >>>> then most screen readers ignore the region as a landmark.
> >>>> 2. You can set role="presentation"
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Sun, Apr 29, 2018 at 12:18 AM, Alexander Karelas <
> >>> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> My page has 4 sections.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Each of the 4 sections contains a big heading.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> My question is:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Should I label the 4 sections? If so, I would ideally like to label
> >>>>> them
> >>>>> with the 4 headings (with aria-labelledby, maybe).
> >>>>>
> >>>>> But when I do that, NVDA reads the heading twice when I press 'h' to
> >>>>> browse the headings. It reads it once because I entered the section,
> >>>>> and
> >>>>> it reads it once more because it's reading the heading itself.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Is that considered annoying? I mean, when the user presses 'h' 4
> times
> >>>>> to browse the 4 headings, they will hear each heading twice after
> each
> >>>>> keypress.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> How do you think I should handle this?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thank you,
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>
> >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>
> >> > >> > >> > >> > >>
> >
>
>
> > > > >

From: Mallory
Date: Mon, Apr 30 2018 5:01AM
Subject: Re: How to handle Heading under Section
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Hm,
looking at the page, I don't think I'd turn an image into a heading. I can see why it was done-- an image seemed easier than finding a custom font (but now if I'm zoomed in it pixellates, while a real font would remain sharp, better for low-vision to use a font or SVG if possible), and the text of the image both visually and content-wise appears to be "heading" the content below.

However even if the code were done the way *I* would do it (perhaps just a <h2 id="foo"><img alt="the heading text" src="..."></h2>), it presents the same problem-- sections are for grouping types of content, and must be labelled, and it makes little sense to have chunks of content that *aren't* headed by... headings. So almost every <section> I can ever think in my life to use would probably also, because it's a chunk of distinctive content, be headed by a heading, so it would always have this problem (if it's a problem) of the heading being read out twice if a screen reader is going to do that.

I kinda wonder then if there's any point in doing
<section>
<h2>I am heading, hear me roar</h2>
<p> special chunk of content, with a proper heading, but in a section because this content does belong together due to its information. Using a div would mean "I just need a box to group stuff in, maybe just for styling and for the lulz" instead.</p>
</section>

If this section is seen as unlabelled and therefore not a landmark (which, if the rest of the page is marked up well and there's a <main>, is no tragedy and probably better to be honest), then are we devs only using section in order to structure stuff up for ourselves? (Maybe like using <dl>s. I love using <dl>s but they don't really offer much to the end-users... it seems more just to make myself feel good :P)

I've been using sections in this way (assuming that the heading is the first thing and therefore clearly names the section of content to end-users) and not bothering to explicitly aria-labelledbying them (I would do that if content order was really weird).

cheers,
_mallory

On Mon, Apr 30, 2018, at 9:00 AM, Steve Faulkner wrote:
> +1 to Birkir section should only be announced as a region if it has an
> accessible name.
> Ensure that all content is contained a landmark, but only use landmark
> elements as macro containers.
>
> This may be helpful
> Easy content organisation with HTML5
> <https://developer.paciellogroup.com/blog/2015/09/easy-content-organisation-with-html5/
> >
>
> --
>
> Regards
>
> SteveF
> Current Standards Work @W3C
> <http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/2015/03/current-standards-work-at-w3c/>;
>
> On 30 April 2018 at 06:36, Alexander Karelas < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> > Here's my page, in case you'd like to look at it, to better assess the
> > situation: https://forums.baza.gr
> >
> > The sections (with headings) that I'm talking about are all of the 4
> > <section> elements on the page.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 29/04/2018 09:09 μμ, Birkir R. Gunnarsson wrote:
> > > My opinion (not hard truth, just opinion) is that ARIA landmarks are
> > > most useful when describing visual structure (fixed sections) of the
> > > page, whereas headings describe the structure of the content.
> > > so landmarks are highly useful for separateing page header, main body
> > > and footer, also useful for marking fixed sections of the page like a
> > > stock ticker (complementary) navigation menus (account navigation,
> > > left navigation) etc. They are an equivalent to seeing sections of the
> > > page at fixed locations on the screen.
> > >
> > > I also think landmarks quickly lose their usefulness when you have too
> > > many of them, I'd say a rule of thumb should be no more than 5
> > > landmarks for a simple page, maybe 8 for a massive page.
> > >
> > > In your case, without seeing the page, I don't think you should assign
> > > landmarks to sections of content already identified with headings. It
> > > will increase verbosity with very little actual benefit.
> > > a region landmark without a label is not supposed to be a landmark. If
> > > a screen reader presents one as such, file an issue with the screen
> > > reader vendor.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 4/29/18, glen walker < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> > >> NVDA does let me turn off landscape announcements but it turns it off
> > >> everywhere. I'm not sure if I could turn it off just for a particular
> > >> site. So in theory you could ask your users to change their screen
> > reader
> > >> settings to accommodate your design decisions.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Sun, Apr 29, 2018 at 10:17 AM, Jonathan Cohn < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> On the other hand Screen readers probably could be adjusted so that
> > they
> > >>> would not double speak when the label of the section just entered is
> > the
> > >>> same as the element with virtual focus.
> > >>>
> > >>> -Jonathan
> > >>>
> > >>> Best wishes,
> > >>>
> > >>> Jonathan Cohn
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>> On Apr 29, 2018, at 2:57 AM, glen walker < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> > wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> A <section> <https://www.w3.org/TR/html53/sections.html#the-section-
> > >>> element>
> > >>>> element has a region role <https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.1/#region
> > >
> > >>> by
> > >>>> default, and a region is a landmark. While it's good to have bypass
> > >>> blocks
> > >>>> that a screen reader can use, it might be overkill to have both a
> > >>>> heading
> > >>>> and a landmark. The problem is you might have some screen reader
> > users
> > >>>> that like to navigate by headings and others that like to navigate by
> > >>>> landmarks. Hearing the heading twice is not ideal, but is certainly
> > >>> better
> > >>>> than not being labeled.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Without knowing more details about your situation, my initial reaction
> > >>>> is
> > >>>> that the <section> is not needed. If you can't prevent the <section>
> > >>> from
> > >>>> being generated, then you might want to consider removing the landmark
> > >>> role
> > >>>> of the <section>. You can do this two ways:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> 1. If a <section> doesn't have a label (aria-label or
> > aria-labelledby),
> > >>>> then most screen readers ignore the region as a landmark.
> > >>>> 2. You can set role="presentation"
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On Sun, Apr 29, 2018 at 12:18 AM, Alexander Karelas <
> > >>> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> > >>>> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> My page has 4 sections.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Each of the 4 sections contains a big heading.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> My question is:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Should I label the 4 sections? If so, I would ideally like to label
> > >>>>> them
> > >>>>> with the 4 headings (with aria-labelledby, maybe).
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> But when I do that, NVDA reads the heading twice when I press 'h' to
> > >>>>> browse the headings. It reads it once because I entered the section,
> > >>>>> and
> > >>>>> it reads it once more because it's reading the heading itself.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Is that considered annoying? I mean, when the user presses 'h' 4
> > times
> > >>>>> to browse the 4 headings, they will hear each heading twice after
> > each
> > >>>>> keypress.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> How do you think I should handle this?
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Thank you,
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>>
> > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>
> > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >>
> > >
> >
> >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > >

From: Alexander Karelas
Date: Mon, Apr 30 2018 3:41PM
Subject: Re: How to handle Heading under Section
← Previous message | No next message

A bug has already been filed for this, by the way...
https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/7823 and has been replied to,
more or less.


On 29/04/2018 09:18 πμ, Alexander Karelas wrote:
> My page has 4 sections.
>
> Each of the 4 sections contains a big heading.
>
> My question is:
>
> Should I label the 4 sections? If so, I would ideally like to label them
> with the 4 headings (with aria-labelledby, maybe).
>
> But when I do that, NVDA reads the heading twice when I press 'h' to
> browse the headings. It reads it once because I entered the section, and
> it reads it once more because it's reading the heading itself.
>
> Is that considered annoying? I mean, when the user presses 'h' 4 times
> to browse the 4 headings, they will hear each heading twice after each
> keypress.
>
> How do you think I should handle this?
>
> Thank you,
>
>