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From: Christine Hogenkamp
Date: Mon, Jul 15 2019 1:22PM
Subject: Accessible PDF - syncing reading order and tags tree order
No previous message | Next message →

Hello!

New to the list, hopefully it's ok for me to ask for help with an issue
I've noticed about doing accessible PDFs in InDesign/Acrobat.

So current practice is to create a document in InDesign, then reorder the
layers and add tags to document so that when the PDF is exported, the
reading order is correct. Some items may have to be adjusted for correct
tag types in InDesign or reading order adjusted in Acrobat using the
Reading Order panel, but largely this works fine for creating a PDF with
correct reading order.

Recently I have been learning NVDA to improve my understanding of
accessibility and I noticed that NVDA doesn't follow reading order, it
follows the tag tree order, which I had assumed follows reading order but
have discovered is not the case! As far as I can tell, if you tell
InDesign to add tags automatically to a document all at once after all
copy/elements are present in the file, those items will be listed in the
tag tree in the order of which they were added to the file itself. This
has nothing to do with layer order, so it makes sense that when exported,
the reading order and tag tree list are not the same, if InDesign looks to
layer order to determine reading order.

I know it's possible to manually drag and drop tags in the Structure/Tags
panel to be in the correct order from top to bottom, both in InDesign and
Acrobat, respectively. The problem is that sometimes we work on documents
that are 50+ pages long, so manually re-ordering the tag tree to get the
tag tree order correct would be tedious and time-consuming, especially
since the Tags panel doesn't separate anything by pages.

So I'm looking for solutions for being able to correct a long-format
document for tag order without having to fix the tags manually:

- Is there a way to force the tags to sync with the Reading Order panel?
It's much easier to get the Reading Order panel structured correctly and
would only have to be done once, if the tags could be synced up or linked
in some way (so if I move something in the Reading Order, it moves the tag
too)
- Are there any tools/plugins/add-ons to make Tag panel reordering less
tedious and not just drag and drop one at a time?
- Any other suggestions for a fix?

Thanks for reading!

--
*Christine Hogenkamp*
Front-end Developer

CONTEXT CREATIVE
317 ADELAIDE ST. W., #500 | TORONTO, ON CANADA | M5V 1P9
<https://maps.google.com/?q=317+ADELAIDE+ST.+W.,+%23500%C2%A0+%7C%C2%A0+TORONTO,+ON+CANADA%C2%A0+%7C%C2%A0+M5V+1P9&entry=gmail&source=g>

From: Jonathan Avila
Date: Mon, Jul 15 2019 1:32PM
Subject: Re: Accessible PDF - syncing reading order and tags tree order
← Previous message | Next message →

Christine, Have you tried using the articles panel in InDesign to affect the tag order? There are also some useful add-ones like Made to Tag.

Jonathan

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 15, 2019, at 3:23 PM, Christine Hogenkamp < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.
>
>
> Hello!
>
> New to the list, hopefully it's ok for me to ask for help with an issue
> I've noticed about doing accessible PDFs in InDesign/Acrobat.
>
> So current practice is to create a document in InDesign, then reorder the
> layers and add tags to document so that when the PDF is exported, the
> reading order is correct. Some items may have to be adjusted for correct
> tag types in InDesign or reading order adjusted in Acrobat using the
> Reading Order panel, but largely this works fine for creating a PDF with
> correct reading order.
>
> Recently I have been learning NVDA to improve my understanding of
> accessibility and I noticed that NVDA doesn't follow reading order, it
> follows the tag tree order, which I had assumed follows reading order but
> have discovered is not the case! As far as I can tell, if you tell
> InDesign to add tags automatically to a document all at once after all
> copy/elements are present in the file, those items will be listed in the
> tag tree in the order of which they were added to the file itself. This
> has nothing to do with layer order, so it makes sense that when exported,
> the reading order and tag tree list are not the same, if InDesign looks to
> layer order to determine reading order.
>
> I know it's possible to manually drag and drop tags in the Structure/Tags
> panel to be in the correct order from top to bottom, both in InDesign and
> Acrobat, respectively. The problem is that sometimes we work on documents
> that are 50+ pages long, so manually re-ordering the tag tree to get the
> tag tree order correct would be tedious and time-consuming, especially
> since the Tags panel doesn't separate anything by pages.
>
> So I'm looking for solutions for being able to correct a long-format
> document for tag order without having to fix the tags manually:
>
> - Is there a way to force the tags to sync with the Reading Order panel?
> It's much easier to get the Reading Order panel structured correctly and
> would only have to be done once, if the tags could be synced up or linked
> in some way (so if I move something in the Reading Order, it moves the tag
> too)
> - Are there any tools/plugins/add-ons to make Tag panel reordering less
> tedious and not just drag and drop one at a time?
> - Any other suggestions for a fix?
>
> Thanks for reading!
>
> --
> *Christine Hogenkamp*
> Front-end Developer
>
> CONTEXT CREATIVE
> 317 ADELAIDE ST. W., #500 | TORONTO, ON CANADA | M5V 1P9
> <https://maps.google.com/?q=317+ADELAIDE+ST.+W.,+%23500%C2%A0+%7C%C2%A0+TORONTO,+ON+CANADA%C2%A0+%7C%C2%A0+M5V+1P9&entry=gmail&source=g>
> > > >

From: chagnon@pubcom.com
Date: Mon, Jul 15 2019 2:25PM
Subject: Re: Accessible PDF - syncing reading order and tags tree order
← Previous message | Next message →

Whew!
That's a lot of questions.

Difficult to answer them in depth; you're asking for our 3-day hands-on
class in 508 + InDesign in a short email <grin>.

Some basic principles first, and then I'll give specifics for your questions
afterwards.

From what you've described,
- it's not as difficult to do as you stated.
- it's also not as easy as you stated.

Best Practice: always create the most accessible source document as possible
before exporting to PDF. There are no tools that can adequately and quickly
correct the PDF once it's been made. Especially with PDFs from InDesign; not
that InDesign is a bad program (far from it!), it's that it's a highly
complex program used to make very visually complex documents.

InDesign is a page layout and design program. MS Word is just word
processing.

For those not interested in the details, there's no further need to read on.

For the rest who are InDesigners, here we go...

<Quote> then reorder the layers and add tags to document</Quote>
The phrase "add tags" has me worried.

You do not add tags to InDesign (or Word, PowerPoint, or any other source
document).

PDF tags exist only in PDFs. If you are using tags in InDesign, then they
are XML tags (listed in a panel called "Tags" that I wish Adobe would rename
"XML Tags"). XML tags are not the same as PDF tags which are not the same as
HTML tags. So if you are using InDesign's tags panel, don't!

PDF Tags are added to a document at the time it is exported (or converted)
to the PDF file format.

While you're creating the source document, you indicate which tag should be
applied to the exported PDF by using Paragraph Styles. (See Export Tag in a
style's definition dialogue box.)

<Quote> that NVDA doesn't follow reading order, it follows the tag tree
order</Quote>

The PDF/UA standards require that all assistive technologies follow the Tag
Tree for everything...tags and reading order. So in theory, you shouldn't
worry about the Order panel.

But in reality, you should get it into decent shape because:
-The order panel is used by many technologies, including when someone just
wants to read a PDF on their cell phone.
-Older AT still use the order panel (such as one of our government clients
that has an older model Braille embosser).
-A lousy Order panel can sometimes make it more difficult to get the Tag
Tree correct, especially with complex visual designs such as those from
InDesign.
-It's often faster to correct Tag tree errors in the Order panel; when done
in the Order panel, they generally are done in the Tags tree, too. But not
vice versa.

<Quote> - Is there a way to force the tags to sync with the Reading Order
panel? </Quote>

Change something in the Order panel and it will change in the Tags tree.
But change something in the Tags tree and it will NOT change in the Order
panel.
And there is no magic button to force them to synch.

Best Practice: control both the Tag and Order reading orders in InDesign,
not after the PDF has been made.

<Advice>
InDesign controls the tags via Paragraph Styles. So use paragraph and
character styles exclusively and ditch the top control panel (or its new
replacement, the Properties panel).

InDesign controls the TAG reading order mainly by how well you have threaded
your story frames and controlled their sequence.

InDesign controls the Order Panel's reading order (originally called the
architectural/construction order) by the sequence in which you added each
frame to the page (hence, the stacking order seen in InDesign's layers
panel). The bottom-most item on the bottom-most layer will be read first,
and the remaining ones on that layer. Then it goes to the next layer,
bottom-up.

Strategy: merge down multiple layers into one; otherwise they will throw off
both the Tag and Order panels reading orders. Becomes a waste of time to
have multiple layers.

The Articles panel can help, but really doesn't do much to either reading
order. But do use it. Set it up as the last thing you do before exporting.
Focus on controlling the reading orders via the other methods above, namely
threading your story frames and the controlling the stacking order in the
layers panel.

The order in InDesign's Articles panel is top down.
The order in InDesign's Layers panel is bottom up.

Hope this helps,
-Bevi

- - -
Bevi Chagnon, founder/CEO | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
- - -
PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing
consulting . training . development . design . sec. 508 services
Upcoming classes at www.PubCom.com/classes
- - -
Latest blog-newsletter - Accessibility Tips at www.PubCom.com/blog

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of
Christine Hogenkamp
Sent: Monday, July 15, 2019 3:23 PM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: [WebAIM] Accessible PDF - syncing reading order and tags tree order

Hello!

New to the list, hopefully it's ok for me to ask for help with an issue I've
noticed about doing accessible PDFs in InDesign/Acrobat.

So current practice is to create a document in InDesign, then reorder the
layers and add tags to document so that when the PDF is exported, the
reading order is correct. Some items may have to be adjusted for correct
tag types in InDesign or reading order adjusted in Acrobat using the Reading
Order panel, but largely this works fine for creating a PDF with correct
reading order.

Recently I have been learning NVDA to improve my understanding of
accessibility and I noticed that NVDA doesn't follow reading order, it
follows the tag tree order, which I had assumed follows reading order but
have discovered is not the case! As far as I can tell, if you tell InDesign
to add tags automatically to a document all at once after all copy/elements
are present in the file, those items will be listed in the tag tree in the
order of which they were added to the file itself. This has nothing to do
with layer order, so it makes sense that when exported, the reading order
and tag tree list are not the same, if InDesign looks to layer order to
determine reading order.

I know it's possible to manually drag and drop tags in the Structure/Tags
panel to be in the correct order from top to bottom, both in InDesign and
Acrobat, respectively. The problem is that sometimes we work on documents
that are 50+ pages long, so manually re-ordering the tag tree to get the tag
tree order correct would be tedious and time-consuming, especially since the
Tags panel doesn't separate anything by pages.

So I'm looking for solutions for being able to correct a long-format
document for tag order without having to fix the tags manually:

- Is there a way to force the tags to sync with the Reading Order panel?
It's much easier to get the Reading Order panel structured correctly and
would only have to be done once, if the tags could be synced up or linked in
some way (so if I move something in the Reading Order, it moves the tag
too)
- Are there any tools/plugins/add-ons to make Tag panel reordering less
tedious and not just drag and drop one at a time?
- Any other suggestions for a fix?

Thanks for reading!

--
*Christine Hogenkamp*
Front-end Developer

CONTEXT CREATIVE
317 ADELAIDE ST. W., #500 | TORONTO, ON CANADA | M5V 1P9
<https://maps.google.com/?q=317+ADELAIDE+ST.+W.,+%23500%C2%A0+%7C%C2%A0+TORO
NTO,+ON+CANADA%C2%A0+%7C%C2%A0+M5V+1P9&entry=gmail&source=g>
http://webaim.org/discussion/archives

From: Colleen Gratzer
Date: Thu, Jul 18 2019 10:42AM
Subject: Re: Accessible PDF - syncing reading order and tags tree order
← Previous message | Next message →

I second taking Bevi's InDesign + PDF class. That's how I learned 3
years ago.


Colleen Gratzer
Chief Creative Officer | Brand Academy™ Certified Branding Expert |
Accessibility Specialist
Gratzer Graphics LLC https://gratzergraphics.com

Design Domination podcast

From: Christine Hogenkamp
Date: Tue, Jul 23 2019 1:17PM
Subject: Re: Accessible PDF - syncing reading order and tags tree order
← Previous message | No next message

Hi all,

Apologies for the delayed reply, I read all the super helpful info in your
responses, then went away to absorb it, Google a bunch of things, basically
wrap my head around the fact that I've been operating under the rather
large misunderstanding that the Tags panel in InDesign and the Tags panel
in Acrobat are the same, when they are NOT! There are a lot of tutorials
out there that treat them as the same! I think I am definitely starting
now on the proper path to truly accessible docs.

*Jonathan* - thank you for the advice! I have been exploring the Articles
panel, Googled more about how to use it, etc. and some progress is slowly
being made.

*Bevi* - Thank you SO MUCH for your in-depth breakdown and explanations, I
looked at your website about the classes you teach, and while you're a bit
too far away from me to do some in-person classes (I'm over in Toronto), I
have bookmarked the classes page to see if it's possible to do some online
classes at a future date.


I have a few more questions (Bevi if these are covered in your class please
feel free to say so, please don't feel obliged to give me for free what you
should rightly charge for) as I've been experimenting with InDesign based
on all your remarks and have new questions from where I am now, info-wise:

- Bevi said: *"It's often faster to correct Tag tree errors in the Order
panel; when done*

*in the Order panel, they generally are done in the Tags tree, too. But not*
*vice versa."* - Are you referring to the Order panel in Acrobat, when you
need to reorder elements so you grab one and drag and drop it downwards to
reorder the reading order, should it automatically change the Tags order as
well? Generally I prefer to fix the order by proper Layer arrangement in
InDesign (as you described, which we agree fixing in InDesign is the best
method for fixing errors, instead of using Acrobat) - is there an
equivalent to this in InDesign, ie change/fix the layer order and
automatically set the tag order to match?

- So I've been using the Articles panel to add elements one by one to a
single "Article 1" I create, adding from the first item to be read to the
last so first item on top and last item on the bottom, and when I go to
export the PDF, sometimes the PDF tag order is correct and sometimes it
comes out wrong. Is there something fundamental I am missing here?

- Bev said: *"Focus on controlling the reading orders via the other methods
above, namely*

*threading your story frames and the controlling the stacking order in the*
*layers panel." -* So when I add threaded story frames to the Articles
panel, I noticed that you just add them once no matter how many boxes the
copy is spread between, which makes sense treating it as a single element.
But when there's an element like an image between two frames, there's no
way to set it between the frames, in the Articles panel.

When I was exploring how best to get threaded copy to include a Figure
image between two threaded frames, it suggested anchoring the image to the
end of the first frame, as per this sort of instruction:
https://accessibility.psu.edu/pdf/indesign/

Sometimes anchoring images can create errors when exporting the PDF and
running the accessibility checker, are there any other methods for ensuring
a Figure image gets it's proper place in the logical reading order?

Thanks again for all the help and suggestions.

--
*Christine Hogenkamp*
Front-end Developer

CONTEXT CREATIVE
317 ADELAIDE ST. W., #500 | TORONTO, ON CANADA | M5V 1P9
<https://maps.google.com/?q=317+ADELAIDE+ST.+W.,+%23500%C2%A0+%7C%C2%A0+TORONTO,+ON+CANADA%C2%A0+%7C%C2%A0+M5V+1P9&entry=gmail&source=g>

On Tue, Jul 16, 2019 at 2:01 PM < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:

>
> From: Jonathan Avila < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2019 19:32:32 +0000
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Accessible PDF - syncing reading order and tags tree
> order
> Christine, Have you tried using the articles panel in InDesign to affect
> the tag order? There are also some useful add-ones like Made to Tag.
>
> Jonathan
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Jul 15, 2019, at 3:23 PM, Christine Hogenkamp <
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> >
> > CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not
> click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know
> the content is safe.
> >
> >
> > Hello!
> >
> > New to the list, hopefully it's ok for me to ask for help with an issue
> > I've noticed about doing accessible PDFs in InDesign/Acrobat.
> >
> > So current practice is to create a document in InDesign, then reorder the
> > layers and add tags to document so that when the PDF is exported, the
> > reading order is correct. Some items may have to be adjusted for correct
> > tag types in InDesign or reading order adjusted in Acrobat using the
> > Reading Order panel, but largely this works fine for creating a PDF with
> > correct reading order.
> >
> > Recently I have been learning NVDA to improve my understanding of
> > accessibility and I noticed that NVDA doesn't follow reading order, it
> > follows the tag tree order, which I had assumed follows reading order but
> > have discovered is not the case! As far as I can tell, if you tell
> > InDesign to add tags automatically to a document all at once after all
> > copy/elements are present in the file, those items will be listed in the
> > tag tree in the order of which they were added to the file itself. This
> > has nothing to do with layer order, so it makes sense that when exported,
> > the reading order and tag tree list are not the same, if InDesign looks
> to
> > layer order to determine reading order.
> >
> > I know it's possible to manually drag and drop tags in the Structure/Tags
> > panel to be in the correct order from top to bottom, both in InDesign and
> > Acrobat, respectively. The problem is that sometimes we work on
> documents
> > that are 50+ pages long, so manually re-ordering the tag tree to get the
> > tag tree order correct would be tedious and time-consuming, especially
> > since the Tags panel doesn't separate anything by pages.
> >
> > So I'm looking for solutions for being able to correct a long-format
> > document for tag order without having to fix the tags manually:
> >
> > - Is there a way to force the tags to sync with the Reading Order panel?
> > It's much easier to get the Reading Order panel structured correctly and
> > would only have to be done once, if the tags could be synced up or linked
> > in some way (so if I move something in the Reading Order, it moves the
> tag
> > too)
> > - Are there any tools/plugins/add-ons to make Tag panel reordering less
> > tedious and not just drag and drop one at a time?
> > - Any other suggestions for a fix?
> >
> > Thanks for reading!
> >
> > --
> > *Christine Hogenkamp*
> > Front-end Developer
> >
> > CONTEXT CREATIVE
> > 317 ADELAIDE ST. W., #500 | TORONTO, ON CANADA | M5V 1P9
> > <https://maps.google.com/?q=317+ADELAIDE+ST.+W
> .,+%23500%C2%A0+%7C%C2%A0+TORONTO,+ON+CANADA%C2%A0+%7C%C2%A0+M5V+1P9&entry=gmail&source=g>
> > > > > > > > >
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> To: "'WebAIM Discussion List'" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2019 16:25:41 -0400
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Accessible PDF - syncing reading order and tags tree
> order
> Whew!
> That's a lot of questions.
>
> Difficult to answer them in depth; you're asking for our 3-day hands-on
> class in 508 + InDesign in a short email <grin>.
>
> Some basic principles first, and then I'll give specifics for your
> questions
> afterwards.
>
> >From what you've described,
> - it's not as difficult to do as you stated.
> - it's also not as easy as you stated.
>
> Best Practice: always create the most accessible source document as
> possible
> before exporting to PDF. There are no tools that can adequately and quickly
> correct the PDF once it's been made. Especially with PDFs from InDesign;
> not
> that InDesign is a bad program (far from it!), it's that it's a highly
> complex program used to make very visually complex documents.
>
> InDesign is a page layout and design program. MS Word is just word
> processing.
>
> For those not interested in the details, there's no further need to read
> on.
>
> For the rest who are InDesigners, here we go...
>
> <Quote> then reorder the layers and add tags to document</Quote>
> The phrase "add tags" has me worried.
>
> You do not add tags to InDesign (or Word, PowerPoint, or any other source
> document).
>
> PDF tags exist only in PDFs. If you are using tags in InDesign, then they
> are XML tags (listed in a panel called "Tags" that I wish Adobe would
> rename
> "XML Tags"). XML tags are not the same as PDF tags which are not the same
> as
> HTML tags. So if you are using InDesign's tags panel, don't!
>
> PDF Tags are added to a document at the time it is exported (or converted)
> to the PDF file format.
>
> While you're creating the source document, you indicate which tag should be
> applied to the exported PDF by using Paragraph Styles. (See Export Tag in a
> style's definition dialogue box.)
>
> <Quote> that NVDA doesn't follow reading order, it follows the tag tree
> order</Quote>
>
> The PDF/UA standards require that all assistive technologies follow the Tag
> Tree for everything...tags and reading order. So in theory, you shouldn't
> worry about the Order panel.
>
> But in reality, you should get it into decent shape because:
> -The order panel is used by many technologies, including when someone just
> wants to read a PDF on their cell phone.
> -Older AT still use the order panel (such as one of our government clients
> that has an older model Braille embosser).
> -A lousy Order panel can sometimes make it more difficult to get the Tag
> Tree correct, especially with complex visual designs such as those from
> InDesign.
> -It's often faster to correct Tag tree errors in the Order panel; when done
> in the Order panel, they generally are done in the Tags tree, too. But not
> vice versa.
>
> <Quote> - Is there a way to force the tags to sync with the Reading Order
> panel? </Quote>
>
> Change something in the Order panel and it will change in the Tags tree.
> But change something in the Tags tree and it will NOT change in the Order
> panel.
> And there is no magic button to force them to synch.
>
> Best Practice: control both the Tag and Order reading orders in InDesign,
> not after the PDF has been made.
>
> <Advice>
> InDesign controls the tags via Paragraph Styles. So use paragraph and
> character styles exclusively and ditch the top control panel (or its new
> replacement, the Properties panel).
>
> InDesign controls the TAG reading order mainly by how well you have
> threaded
> your story frames and controlled their sequence.
>
> InDesign controls the Order Panel's reading order (originally called the
> architectural/construction order) by the sequence in which you added each
> frame to the page (hence, the stacking order seen in InDesign's layers
> panel). The bottom-most item on the bottom-most layer will be read first,
> and the remaining ones on that layer. Then it goes to the next layer,
> bottom-up.
>
> Strategy: merge down multiple layers into one; otherwise they will throw
> off
> both the Tag and Order panels reading orders. Becomes a waste of time to
> have multiple layers.
>
> The Articles panel can help, but really doesn't do much to either reading
> order. But do use it. Set it up as the last thing you do before exporting.
> Focus on controlling the reading orders via the other methods above, namely
> threading your story frames and the controlling the stacking order in the
> layers panel.
>
> The order in InDesign's Articles panel is top down.
> The order in InDesign's Layers panel is bottom up.
>
> Hope this helps,
> -Bevi
>
> - - -
> Bevi Chagnon, founder/CEO | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> - - -
> PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing
> consulting . training . development . design . sec. 508 services
> Upcoming classes at www.PubCom.com/classes
> - - -
> Latest blog-newsletter - Accessibility Tips at www.PubCom.com/blog
>