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Thread: Cross Screen Reader testing

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Number of posts in this thread: 9 (In chronological order)

From: Murphy, Sean
Date: Sat, May 16 2020 5:11AM
Subject: Cross Screen Reader testing
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All,

Anyone used this service "Cross Screen Reader Testing". Visit https://assis=
tivlabs.com/ to see the limited info available.



[cid:image001.png@01D62BC6.92398350]

Sean Murphy | Accessibility expert/lead
Digital Accessibility manager
Telstra Digital Channels | Digital Systems
Mobile: 0405 129 739 | Desk: (02) 9866-7917

www.telstra.com

This email may contain confidential information.
If I've sent it to you by accident, please delete it immediately




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From: Steve Green
Date: Sat, May 16 2020 7:15AM
Subject: Re: Cross Screen Reader testing
← Previous message | Next message →

I had not heard of this, so I have just subscribed. My first thought is that it looks like a cheap way for a lot of people to do really bad testing. If someone wants to do assistive technology testing, the first step should be to get a lot of experience observing how people use assistive technologies, how they navigate websites, web pages and mobile apps, and learning what does and does not cause problems for them. Only then should they install and use the assistive technology. This website encourages people to jump straight in without any understanding at all. As such, it could do more harm than good.

My second thought was that this constitutes a clear violation of the JAWS license unless they have done a deal with Freedom Scientific. There is no mention of this on the website.

As for how well the virtualised service matches the behaviour on a real machine, we won't know until the service goes live.

Steve Green
Managing Director
Test Partners Ltd


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Murphy, Sean
Sent: 16 May 2020 12:12
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: [WebAIM] Cross Screen Reader testing

All,

Anyone used this service "Cross Screen Reader Testing". Visit https://assistivlabs.com/ to see the limited info available.



[cid:image001.png@01D62BC6.92398350]

Sean Murphy | Accessibility expert/lead
Digital Accessibility manager
Telstra Digital Channels | Digital Systems
Mobile: 0405 129 739 | Desk: (02) 9866-7917

www.telstra.com

This email may contain confidential information.
If I've sent it to you by accident, please delete it immediately

From: glen walker
Date: Sat, May 16 2020 9:41AM
Subject: Re: Cross Screen Reader testing
← Previous message | Next message →

Since the website has minimal info, I did about 30 seconds of digging and
the contact us page has = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = as a contact person and if
you google that email, you can find info on Weston Thayer, a designer. I'm
sure you can contact him for more info.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/weston-thayer-08aa5992/
https://twitter.com/westonthayer5?lang=en
http://westonthayer.com/

From: Weston Thayer
Date: Sat, May 16 2020 12:55PM
Subject: Re: Cross Screen Reader testing
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi everyone, Weston here. I've been enjoying the conversations on this list
for a while now, but haven't piped up. First, thank you for this resource,
and second, now is probably as good a time as any to introduce myself.

I'm a designer/developer, and I've been working on Assistiv Labs for just
over a year now, both to try and help solve pain points I've heard from
others about testing with assistive technologies, and some of my own. More
early access invitations are slowly going out, my timeline was
unfortunately set back quite a bit by current events this spring.

The project has evolved quite a bit since I first put up the website, so
I'll try to give a brief update here.

To your point Steve, I totally agree with your concerns about enabling
inexperienced testers to do harm. Right now, I think the tool is best
paired to accessibility professionals who are already trained in AT usage,
and are testing on their own physical or virtual machines today. Assistiv
Labs offers a few advantages, like repeatable, 100% isolated testing
environments, keyboard shortcut remapping, and access to past, present, and
future AT/browser versions. The latter is a feature I just got working, for
example you can quickly jump between Firefox 76.0, 77.0 (beta), or all the
way back to 62.0. Similarly, it supports NVDA 2020.1 through 2018.1. I find
this especially handy for narrowing down exactly what version an AT or
browser bug cropped up. The website is due for an update and the copy will
be changed to reflect this focus.

For JAWS usage, you'll need to bring your own license (which must
have Remote Desktop/Citrix® Support included). 40 minute mode will not
work. I care very much about complying with each ATs license, and am open
to feedback and ideas on how to make it even easier (for both vendors and
end users).

Overall, I'm really focused on delivering a pleasant, low-latency remote
testing experience that's as accessible as possible (i.e. test NVDA while
using VoiceOver). There are a few limitations (read more in the Accessibility
Statement <https://assistivlabs.com/accessibility>), but I'm hoping to
overcome them in time.

Nice to meet you all, and please feel free to ask more questions here or
email = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = . I hope with your feedback, Assistiv Labs can
be a useful tool someday.

Best,
Weston

On Sat, May 16, 2020 at 8:42 AM glen walker < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Since the website has minimal info, I did about 30 seconds of digging and
> the contact us page has = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = as a contact person and if
> you google that email, you can find info on Weston Thayer, a designer. I'm
> sure you can contact him for more info.
>
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/weston-thayer-08aa5992/
> https://twitter.com/westonthayer5?lang=en
> http://westonthayer.com/
> > > > >

From: Steve Green
Date: Sat, May 16 2020 3:00PM
Subject: Re: Cross Screen Reader testing
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Weston,

Thanks for the information. Will the product work with all the different types of JAWS licensing? For instance, there's Perpetual (ILM) Licensing, which is different from Annual licensing. Some organisations set up their own licensing servers, whereas we use dongle licenses.

Steve


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Weston Thayer
Sent: 16 May 2020 19:56
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Cross Screen Reader testing

Hi everyone, Weston here. I've been enjoying the conversations on this list for a while now, but haven't piped up. First, thank you for this resource, and second, now is probably as good a time as any to introduce myself.

I'm a designer/developer, and I've been working on Assistiv Labs for just over a year now, both to try and help solve pain points I've heard from others about testing with assistive technologies, and some of my own. More early access invitations are slowly going out, my timeline was unfortunately set back quite a bit by current events this spring.

The project has evolved quite a bit since I first put up the website, so I'll try to give a brief update here.

To your point Steve, I totally agree with your concerns about enabling inexperienced testers to do harm. Right now, I think the tool is best paired to accessibility professionals who are already trained in AT usage, and are testing on their own physical or virtual machines today. Assistiv Labs offers a few advantages, like repeatable, 100% isolated testing environments, keyboard shortcut remapping, and access to past, present, and future AT/browser versions. The latter is a feature I just got working, for example you can quickly jump between Firefox 76.0, 77.0 (beta), or all the way back to 62.0. Similarly, it supports NVDA 2020.1 through 2018.1. I find this especially handy for narrowing down exactly what version an AT or browser bug cropped up. The website is due for an update and the copy will be changed to reflect this focus.

For JAWS usage, you'll need to bring your own license (which must have Remote Desktop/Citrix® Support included). 40 minute mode will not work. I care very much about complying with each ATs license, and am open to feedback and ideas on how to make it even easier (for both vendors and end users).

Overall, I'm really focused on delivering a pleasant, low-latency remote testing experience that's as accessible as possible (i.e. test NVDA while using VoiceOver). There are a few limitations (read more in the Accessibility Statement <https://assistivlabs.com/accessibility>), but I'm hoping to overcome them in time.

Nice to meet you all, and please feel free to ask more questions here or email = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = . I hope with your feedback, Assistiv Labs can be a useful tool someday.

Best,
Weston

On Sat, May 16, 2020 at 8:42 AM glen walker < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Since the website has minimal info, I did about 30 seconds of digging
> and the contact us page has = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = as a contact
> person and if you google that email, you can find info on Weston
> Thayer, a designer. I'm sure you can contact him for more info.
>
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/weston-thayer-08aa5992/
> https://twitter.com/westonthayer5?lang=en
> http://westonthayer.com/
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >

From: Weston Thayer
Date: Sat, May 16 2020 3:50PM
Subject: Re: Cross Screen Reader testing
← Previous message | Next message →

Great question, right now only ILM activation keys work. I hope to get more
methods supported down the road.

On Sat, May 16, 2020 at 2:00 PM Steve Green < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:

> Hi Weston,
>
> Thanks for the information. Will the product work with all the different
> types of JAWS licensing? For instance, there's Perpetual (ILM) Licensing,
> which is different from Annual licensing. Some organisations set up their
> own licensing servers, whereas we use dongle licenses.
>
> Steve
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of
> Weston Thayer
> Sent: 16 May 2020 19:56
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Cross Screen Reader testing
>
> Hi everyone, Weston here. I've been enjoying the conversations on this
> list for a while now, but haven't piped up. First, thank you for this
> resource, and second, now is probably as good a time as any to introduce
> myself.
>
> I'm a designer/developer, and I've been working on Assistiv Labs for just
> over a year now, both to try and help solve pain points I've heard from
> others about testing with assistive technologies, and some of my own. More
> early access invitations are slowly going out, my timeline was
> unfortunately set back quite a bit by current events this spring.
>
> The project has evolved quite a bit since I first put up the website, so
> I'll try to give a brief update here.
>
> To your point Steve, I totally agree with your concerns about enabling
> inexperienced testers to do harm. Right now, I think the tool is best
> paired to accessibility professionals who are already trained in AT usage,
> and are testing on their own physical or virtual machines today. Assistiv
> Labs offers a few advantages, like repeatable, 100% isolated testing
> environments, keyboard shortcut remapping, and access to past, present, and
> future AT/browser versions. The latter is a feature I just got working, for
> example you can quickly jump between Firefox 76.0, 77.0 (beta), or all the
> way back to 62.0. Similarly, it supports NVDA 2020.1 through 2018.1. I find
> this especially handy for narrowing down exactly what version an AT or
> browser bug cropped up. The website is due for an update and the copy will
> be changed to reflect this focus.
>
> For JAWS usage, you'll need to bring your own license (which must have
> Remote Desktop/Citrix® Support included). 40 minute mode will not work. I
> care very much about complying with each ATs license, and am open to
> feedback and ideas on how to make it even easier (for both vendors and end
> users).
>
> Overall, I'm really focused on delivering a pleasant, low-latency remote
> testing experience that's as accessible as possible (i.e. test NVDA while
> using VoiceOver). There are a few limitations (read more in the
> Accessibility Statement <https://assistivlabs.com/accessibility>), but
> I'm hoping to overcome them in time.
>
> Nice to meet you all, and please feel free to ask more questions here or
> email = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = . I hope with your feedback, Assistiv Labs
> can be a useful tool someday.
>
> Best,
> Weston
>
> On Sat, May 16, 2020 at 8:42 AM glen walker < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> > Since the website has minimal info, I did about 30 seconds of digging
> > and the contact us page has = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = as a contact
> > person and if you google that email, you can find info on Weston
> > Thayer, a designer. I'm sure you can contact him for more info.
> >
> > https://www.linkedin.com/in/weston-thayer-08aa5992/
> > https://twitter.com/westonthayer5?lang=en
> > http://westonthayer.com/
> > > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > >
> > > at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > > >

From: Murphy, Sean
Date: Sat, May 16 2020 9:20PM
Subject: Re: Cross Screen Reader testing
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Weston,

Freedom Scientific provides network licences. If you are performing a virtual environment which it sounds like you are doing. This could be an option. How are you going to handle Mac? If you are not using Apple hardware, I believe there is possible licencing issues here? Also how are you going to handle VoiceOver via remote desktop? As you will require an audio channel and I don't know if VoiceOver will work correctly in this type of environment. As NVDA requires a remote server and Jaws require the software to be installed on the remote machine. To get full functionality out of Jaws you require a Remote Desktop licence. It is possible to run Jaws via the audio channel. But the audio is very substandard plus the performance is very laggy. I have used Jaws in both approaches.

I will have to read your accessibility statement.

Sean




Sean Murphy | Accessibility expert/lead
Digital Accessibility manager
Telstra Digital Channels | Digital Systems
Mobile: 0405 129 739 | Desk: (02) 9866-7917

www.telstra.com

This email may contain confidential information.
If I've sent it to you by accident, please delete it immediately



-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Weston Thayer
Sent: Sunday, 17 May 2020 7:51 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Cross Screen Reader testing

[External Email] This email was sent from outside the organisation – be cautious, particularly with links and attachments.

Great question, right now only ILM activation keys work. I hope to get more methods supported down the road.

On Sat, May 16, 2020 at 2:00 PM Steve Green < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:

> Hi Weston,
>
> Thanks for the information. Will the product work with all the
> different types of JAWS licensing? For instance, there's Perpetual
> (ILM) Licensing, which is different from Annual licensing. Some
> organisations set up their own licensing servers, whereas we use dongle licenses.
>
> Steve
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of
> Weston Thayer
> Sent: 16 May 2020 19:56
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Cross Screen Reader testing
>
> Hi everyone, Weston here. I've been enjoying the conversations on this
> list for a while now, but haven't piped up. First, thank you for this
> resource, and second, now is probably as good a time as any to
> introduce myself.
>
> I'm a designer/developer, and I've been working on Assistiv Labs for
> just over a year now, both to try and help solve pain points I've
> heard from others about testing with assistive technologies, and some
> of my own. More early access invitations are slowly going out, my
> timeline was unfortunately set back quite a bit by current events this spring.
>
> The project has evolved quite a bit since I first put up the website,
> so I'll try to give a brief update here.
>
> To your point Steve, I totally agree with your concerns about enabling
> inexperienced testers to do harm. Right now, I think the tool is best
> paired to accessibility professionals who are already trained in AT
> usage, and are testing on their own physical or virtual machines
> today. Assistiv Labs offers a few advantages, like repeatable, 100%
> isolated testing environments, keyboard shortcut remapping, and access
> to past, present, and future AT/browser versions. The latter is a
> feature I just got working, for example you can quickly jump between
> Firefox 76.0, 77.0 (beta), or all the way back to 62.0. Similarly, it
> supports NVDA 2020.1 through 2018.1. I find this especially handy for
> narrowing down exactly what version an AT or browser bug cropped up.
> The website is due for an update and the copy will be changed to reflect this focus.
>
> For JAWS usage, you'll need to bring your own license (which must have
> Remote Desktop/Citrix® Support included). 40 minute mode will not
> work. I care very much about complying with each ATs license, and am
> open to feedback and ideas on how to make it even easier (for both
> vendors and end users).
>
> Overall, I'm really focused on delivering a pleasant, low-latency
> remote testing experience that's as accessible as possible (i.e. test
> NVDA while using VoiceOver). There are a few limitations (read more in
> the Accessibility Statement <https://assistivlabs.com/accessibility>),
> but I'm hoping to overcome them in time.
>
> Nice to meet you all, and please feel free to ask more questions here
> or email = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = . I hope with your feedback, Assistiv
> Labs can be a useful tool someday.
>
> Best,
> Weston
>
> On Sat, May 16, 2020 at 8:42 AM glen walker < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> > Since the website has minimal info, I did about 30 seconds of
> > digging and the contact us page has = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = as a
> > contact person and if you google that email, you can find info on
> > Weston Thayer, a designer. I'm sure you can contact him for more info.
> >
> > https://www.linkedin.com/in/weston-thayer-08aa5992/
> > https://twitter.com/westonthayer5?lang=en
> > http://westonthayer.com/
> > > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > >
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >

From: Weston Thayer
Date: Sun, May 17 2020 12:48AM
Subject: Re: Cross Screen Reader testing
← Previous message | Next message →

Yes, I think network licenses should be technically possible.

I should’ve mentioned it only supports Windows currently. Mac support has
been prototyped, but not scaled out yet. It uses official (virtualized)
Apple hardware to comply with their license (and provide an environment
true to what real users use). All video and audio output is streamed from
the Mac to your browser.

I think latency can be optimized, but I’m not sure it can compete with a
local machine for a proficient screen reader user. I measured ~80 - 120 ms
between key down and speech start when connected to a PC within the USA. I
personally find that usable, but looking forward to getting more feedback
from others. Assistiv Labs is globally distributed, so that latency should
be fairly consistent regardless of your location. Depends on your local
network speeds too of course.

On Sat, May 16, 2020 at 8:21 PM Murphy, Sean <
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Hi Weston,
>
> Freedom Scientific provides network licences. If you are performing a
> virtual environment which it sounds like you are doing. This could be an
> option. How are you going to handle Mac? If you are not using Apple
> hardware, I believe there is possible licencing issues here? Also how are
> you going to handle VoiceOver via remote desktop? As you will require an
> audio channel and I don't know if VoiceOver will work correctly in this
> type of environment. As NVDA requires a remote server and Jaws require the
> software to be installed on the remote machine. To get full functionality
> out of Jaws you require a Remote Desktop licence. It is possible to run
> Jaws via the audio channel. But the audio is very substandard plus the
> performance is very laggy. I have used Jaws in both approaches.
>
> I will have to read your accessibility statement.
>
> Sean
>
>
>
>
> Sean Murphy | Accessibility expert/lead
> Digital Accessibility manager
> Telstra Digital Channels | Digital Systems
> Mobile: 0405 129 739 | Desk: (02) 9866-7917
>
> www.telstra.com
>
> This email may contain confidential information.
> If I've sent it to you by accident, please delete it immediately
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of
> Weston Thayer
> Sent: Sunday, 17 May 2020 7:51 AM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Cross Screen Reader testing
>
> [External Email] This email was sent from outside the organisation – be
> cautious, particularly with links and attachments.
>
> Great question, right now only ILM activation keys work. I hope to get
> more methods supported down the road.
>
> On Sat, May 16, 2020 at 2:00 PM Steve Green <
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> wrote:
>
> > Hi Weston,
> >
> > Thanks for the information. Will the product work with all the
> > different types of JAWS licensing? For instance, there's Perpetual
> > (ILM) Licensing, which is different from Annual licensing. Some
> > organisations set up their own licensing servers, whereas we use dongle
> licenses.
> >
> > Steve
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of
> > Weston Thayer
> > Sent: 16 May 2020 19:56
> > To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Cross Screen Reader testing
> >
> > Hi everyone, Weston here. I've been enjoying the conversations on this
> > list for a while now, but haven't piped up. First, thank you for this
> > resource, and second, now is probably as good a time as any to
> > introduce myself.
> >
> > I'm a designer/developer, and I've been working on Assistiv Labs for
> > just over a year now, both to try and help solve pain points I've
> > heard from others about testing with assistive technologies, and some
> > of my own. More early access invitations are slowly going out, my
> > timeline was unfortunately set back quite a bit by current events this
> spring.
> >
> > The project has evolved quite a bit since I first put up the website,
> > so I'll try to give a brief update here.
> >
> > To your point Steve, I totally agree with your concerns about enabling
> > inexperienced testers to do harm. Right now, I think the tool is best
> > paired to accessibility professionals who are already trained in AT
> > usage, and are testing on their own physical or virtual machines
> > today. Assistiv Labs offers a few advantages, like repeatable, 100%
> > isolated testing environments, keyboard shortcut remapping, and access
> > to past, present, and future AT/browser versions. The latter is a
> > feature I just got working, for example you can quickly jump between
> > Firefox 76.0, 77.0 (beta), or all the way back to 62.0. Similarly, it
> > supports NVDA 2020.1 through 2018.1. I find this especially handy for
> > narrowing down exactly what version an AT or browser bug cropped up.
> > The website is due for an update and the copy will be changed to reflect
> this focus.
> >
> > For JAWS usage, you'll need to bring your own license (which must have
> > Remote Desktop/Citrix® Support included). 40 minute mode will not
> > work. I care very much about complying with each ATs license, and am
> > open to feedback and ideas on how to make it even easier (for both
> > vendors and end users).
> >
> > Overall, I'm really focused on delivering a pleasant, low-latency
> > remote testing experience that's as accessible as possible (i.e. test
> > NVDA while using VoiceOver). There are a few limitations (read more in
> > the Accessibility Statement <https://assistivlabs.com/accessibility>),
> > but I'm hoping to overcome them in time.
> >
> > Nice to meet you all, and please feel free to ask more questions here
> > or email = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = . I hope with your feedback, Assistiv
> > Labs can be a useful tool someday.
> >
> > Best,
> > Weston
> >
> > On Sat, May 16, 2020 at 8:42 AM glen walker < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> wrote:
> >
> > > Since the website has minimal info, I did about 30 seconds of
> > > digging and the contact us page has = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = as a
> > > contact person and if you google that email, you can find info on
> > > Weston Thayer, a designer. I'm sure you can contact him for more info.
> > >
> > > https://www.linkedin.com/in/weston-thayer-08aa5992/
> > > https://twitter.com/westonthayer5?lang=en
> > > http://westonthayer.com/
> > > > > > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > > >
> > > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > >
> > > at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > > >

From: glen walker
Date: Sun, May 17 2020 1:53PM
Subject: Re: Cross Screen Reader testing
← Previous message | No next message

I was kind of hoping that my previous posting with your contact info would
cause a follow up posting by yourself because I didn't have a way to query
this listserv to see if you were on it. (The "who" listserv command
requires an admin password.)

On Sat, May 16, 2020 at 12:56 PM Weston Thayer < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:

> Hi everyone, Weston here. I've been enjoying the conversations on this list
> for a while now, but haven't piped up. First, thank you for this resource,
> and second, now is probably as good a time as any to introduce myself.
>
>