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Re: mouseover/hover and keyboard accessible expandablemenu?

for

From: Andrew Kirkpatrick
Date: Nov 9, 2009 11:00AM

Glad you liked it. Thea Eaton from a company called Doodledoo in Texas created it in conjunction with Knowbility and did a great job.

Thanks,
AWK

Andrew Kirkpatrick

Senior Product Manager, Accessibility

Adobe Systems

<EMAIL REMOVED>


-----Original Message-----
From: <EMAIL REMOVED> [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of <EMAIL REMOVED>
Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 9:52 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] mouseover/hover and keyboard accessible expandablemenu?

that demonstration was completely usable with JAWS. I guess the issue is
getting other web developers to apply it. The tutorial was very impressive.
Chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew Kirkpatrick" < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 1:57 PM
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] mouseover/hover and keyboard accessible
expandablemenu?


> Sorry!
> http://www.adobe.com/accessibility/products/flash/tutorial/
>
> Thanks,
> AWK
>
> Andrew Kirkpatrick
>
> Senior Product Manager, Accessibility
>
> Adobe Systems
>
> <EMAIL REMOVED>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
> [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Jon Brundage
> Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 4:54 PM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] mouseover/hover and keyboard accessible
> expandablemenu?
>
> Hi Andrew,
>
> Your post states "Here's one example of Flash being authored with
> accessibility in mind."
>
> Were you meaning to include a link or an example .fla file? Or was that a
> reference to another post?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jon
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Andrew Kirkpatrick" < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 4:36 PM
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] mouseover/hover and keyboard accessible
> expandablemenu?
>
>
>> I'm not sure what you mean when you write "when text is presented as an
>> image in Flash". If there is text in the Flash content it will be
>> available to windows-based screen readers unless the developer explicitly
>> hides it or embeds the Flash content using an unsupported window mode.
>>
>> Yes, there are caveats that developers need know about but there's a fair
>> bit of ground between that and saying "of course, Flash format cannot be
>> read in any screen reader".
>>
>> Here's one example of Flash being authored with accessibility in mind.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> AWK
>>
>> Andrew Kirkpatrick
>>
>> Senior Product Manager, Accessibility
>>
>> Adobe Systems
>>
>> <EMAIL REMOVED>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
>> [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of
>> <EMAIL REMOVED>
>> Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 4:28 PM
>> To: WebAIM Discussion List
>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] mouseover/hover and keyboard accessible
>> expandablemenu?
>>
>> Yes, I should have said that when text is presented as an image in Flash
>> software or at times when it is imbedded it can't be read. I currently
>> use
>> JAWS and it is sometimes readable. I have tried other solutions and have
>> not
>> found them satisfactory. Let me know of other suggestions to deal with
>> this
>> problem.
>> Chuck
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Andrew Kirkpatrick" < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
>> To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
>> Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 1:03 PM
>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] mouseover/hover and keyboard accessible
>> expandablemenu?
>>
>>
>>> Chuck,
>>> That is not a correct statement. Flash content can be read by many
>>> screen
>>> readers.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> AWK
>>>
>>> Andrew Kirkpatrick
>>>
>>> Senior Product Manager, Accessibility
>>>
>>> Adobe Systems
>>>
>>> <EMAIL REMOVED>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
>>> [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of
>>> <EMAIL REMOVED>
>>> Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 3:52 PM
>>> To: WebAIM Discussion List
>>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] mouseover/hover and keyboard accessible
>>> expandablemenu?
>>>
>>> Yes, this can sometimes be an issue. The real issue depends on how items
>>> are
>>> labeled and the use of text appearing in an image or in Flash format as
>>> is
>>> done on many marketing or internet survey sites. Of course, images or
>>> Flash
>>> format is not readable by any screen reader.
>>> Chuck
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Jason Megginson" < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
>>> To: "'WebAIM Discussion List'" < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
>>> Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 12:44 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] mouseover/hover and keyboard accessible
>>> expandablemenu?
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hi Chuck,
>>>>
>>>> In regards to the arrow keys, there may be no difficulty with
>>>> navigating
>>>> this way as long as the menu items are inline with the parent link.
>>>>
>>>> The example at HTML Dog provides a good example of this (sidebar: I
>>>> also
>>>> like the list structure to denote hierarchy):
>>>> http://htmldog.com/articles/suckerfish/dropdowns/example/vertical.html
>>>>
>>>> The child links are inline with the parent link in the source code in
>>>> this
>>>> example. Screen readers like JAWS (virtual cursor) will read the
>>>> content
>>>> in the order it appears in the source code.
>>>>
>>>> When developers use CSS to display the sub-menu items, the content
>>>> should
>>>> appear inline with the parent link(s). I have seen where developers
>>>> place
>>>> the menu items at the end of the source code and position it visually
>>>> in
>>>> the correct place. A user navigating with arrow keys will not be able
>>>> to
>>>> identify the content because it is virtually at the end of the page.
>>>>
>>>> I often recommend sighted testers to disable styles on the page
>>>> (FireFox)
>>>> and inspect where the dynamic content appears. If the content appears
>>>> disjointed, that's how users in Virtual Cursor mode (JAWS) will access
>>>> the
>>>> information.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>>> Jason
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
>>>> [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of
>>>> <EMAIL REMOVED>
>>>> Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 3:19 PM
>>>> To: WebAIM Discussion List
>>>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] mouseover/hover and keyboard accessible
>>>> expandablemenu?
>>>>
>>>> As a screen reader drop down menus are accessible with the use of the
>>>> up
>>>> and
>>>> down arrow keys. There is no difficulty when this format is used.
>>>> Chuck
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Jared Smith" < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
>>>> To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
>>>> Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 9:49 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] mouseover/hover and keyboard accessible
>>>> expandablemenu?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 10:27 AM, < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> You build the stairs,
>>>>>> and you build the elevator, and then you let the person who uses
>>>>>> a wheelchair DECIDE how she wants to get upstairs.
>>>>>
>>>>> Agreed, but it often does not work this way with web accessibility. A
>>>>> web developer must make decisions and those decisions are usually
>>>>> forced upon the site visitors. If you provide really bad alternative
>>>>> text, it WILL be read by screen readers. If you try to make your
>>>>> complex drop-down menu accessible, keyboard-only and screen reader
>>>>> users WILL interact with your attempts at accessibility and will
>>>>> likely have a frustrating experience.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am curious though, how you typically interact with such menus using
>>>>> only your keyboard. Have you found them to generally be accessible? If
>>>>> so, how do they work? Any examples of good ones? Have you found a
>>>>> universal convention to making them keyboard accessible? Do you think
>>>>> they could be made accessible to someone that cannot see them?
>>>>>
>>>>> Jared
>>>>>