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Re: Z-Order and Tag Order Need to Match?

for

From: Ryan E. Benson
Date: May 28, 2020 9:28AM

Hi
I mentioned this before, but who exactly are you speaking with? Have you
asked to talk to either of the agency 508 Coordinator or their staff?

--
Ryan E. Benson


On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 9:17 AM Ilana Gordon < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> I knew when I asked about this subject there would be a flurry of
> information. Thank you for your insight. Most of what has been said is not
> new, i.e., that creating accessible PDFs is subject to the limitations of
> software and the way documents are created. That's why it's important for a
> group like this to exist. To make matters worse, the people who are
> considering the efficacy of accessible documents are using a list of
> criteria that are about as much as they know regarding making documents
> accessible and not considering the usability outside of a checklist.
>
> Consistently I find myself arguing with government staff who don't even
> know what 508 Compliance is. There are arbitrary additions to Agency
> checklists made by staff that are 508 police officers who know absolutely
> nothing about it other than a document needs to fulfill a checklist. This
> is probably true among many software developers as well.
>
> As a remediator I find myself not only remediting 508 compliant documents
> but constantly having to educate the very people who are making
> uninformative decisions.
>
> Thanks,
> Ilana
>
>
>
> On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 8:56 AM Duff Johnson < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> wrote:
>
> > Hi Lisa,
> >
> > There are no "multiple layers" in the PDF in this sense of the term.
> There
> > is simply... content and tags.
> > Content is text, graphics, form fields, annotations, etc.
> > Tags are semantic structures (H2, P, Table, etc). These are applied to
> > content and are used to describe "info and relationships' as per WCAG SC
> > 1.3.1. Tags are the only means of providing these structures in PDF.
> > Otherwise I fully agree with you, and am very encouraged to hear that you
> > are working to convince other software developers to improve their
> support
> > for Tagged PDF.
> >
> > Duff.
> >
> > > On May 28, 2020, at 07:53, L Snider < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Duff,
> > >
> > > Unfortunately I know all about these layers, but there is still no
> > reason.
> > > There is no reason to have multiple layers, what you see should be what
> > you
> > > get...whether you print, tag or whatever...This is partially why, in my
> > > personal opinion, PDFs are still inaccessible. 90% of the ones I have
> > seen
> > > since 2000 are a problem in some way, and most in major ways. Plus tags
> > are
> > > just one aspect of PDFs, people will all sorts of disabilities use PDFs
> > as
> > > you know well.
> > >
> > > I gave up on Adobe, they moved forward for a long, long time and the
> last
> > > 10 years they moved backward. Not in InDesign, InDesign is amazing and
> > > kudos to whoever worked on the accessibility aspect of it, now if they
> > > could move back those people to PDF we might get back to where PDF
> > > was...Microsoft has been kicking butt in terms of accessibility the
> last
> > 5
> > > years, so maybe one day Adobe will follow suit.
> > >
> > > I am now trying to find other PDF creation programs and convince them
> to
> > do
> > > better, may have a shot!
> > >
> > > Cheers
> > >
> > > Lisa
> > >
> > > On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 7:48 PM Duff Johnson < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >> Hi Lisa,
> > >>
> > >> Content order and logical reading order are "separate" in PDF because
> > the
> > >> technology is obliged to represent content for different purposes.
> > >> Rendering (e.g., printing) is a different purpose than accessibility,
> > for
> > >> example, and often requires ordering of content for processing
> purposes
> > >> that differs from logical reading order. PDF was originally designed
> for
> > >> maximum fidelity in print. Accessibility considerations were only
> > addressed
> > >> in 2000 with the addition of the Tagged PDF feature to the format.
> > >>
> > >> In 2020 the difficulty is not in the format but in the software.
> > >> Unfortunately it remains the case that...
> > >> PDF viewer developers don't do a great job of supporting tagged PDF in
> > >> many cases. This is simply a business decision.
> > >> Users continue to use software that doesn't understand tagged PDF
> > instead
> > >> of seeking out and demanding better.
> > >> Authors continue to author content without consideration for semantics
> > >> (e.g., use tab stops instead of table structures, etc.)
> > >> I'll beat my usual drum once again: if you want better PDF support,
> > >> complain to those who make your software. Demand better support for
> > Tagged
> > >> PDF. In 2020 there's simply no excuse.
> > >>
> > >> Duff.
> > >>
> > >>> On May 27, 2020, at 18:30, Paul Rayius < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> As per ISO 32000, one of the intents of PDF is that the "accessible
> > >> layer" and the visual layer are independent of each other.
> > >>>
> > >>> Paul Rayius
> > >>> Director of Training
> > >>> CommonLook
> > >>>
> > >>>