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Re: Z-Order and Tag Order Need to Match?

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From: Ilana Gordon
Date: May 28, 2020 10:00AM

Oh yes. I often speak to the 508 coordinators but in this particular case
there must be a new team since remote working has come into play and there
are all kinds of additional "accessibility" items they are adding. I've
gone through this before but now the issue is making the z-order and tag
order a requirement. Ughhh!

Thanks,
Ilana

On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 11:28 AM Ryan E. Benson < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
wrote:

> Hi
> I mentioned this before, but who exactly are you speaking with? Have you
> asked to talk to either of the agency 508 Coordinator or their staff?
>
> --
> Ryan E. Benson
>
>
> On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 9:17 AM Ilana Gordon < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> wrote:
>
> > Hi All,
> >
> > I knew when I asked about this subject there would be a flurry of
> > information. Thank you for your insight. Most of what has been said is
> not
> > new, i.e., that creating accessible PDFs is subject to the limitations of
> > software and the way documents are created. That's why it's important
> for a
> > group like this to exist. To make matters worse, the people who are
> > considering the efficacy of accessible documents are using a list of
> > criteria that are about as much as they know regarding making documents
> > accessible and not considering the usability outside of a checklist.
> >
> > Consistently I find myself arguing with government staff who don't even
> > know what 508 Compliance is. There are arbitrary additions to Agency
> > checklists made by staff that are 508 police officers who know absolutely
> > nothing about it other than a document needs to fulfill a checklist. This
> > is probably true among many software developers as well.
> >
> > As a remediator I find myself not only remediting 508 compliant documents
> > but constantly having to educate the very people who are making
> > uninformative decisions.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Ilana
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 8:56 AM Duff Johnson < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Lisa,
> > >
> > > There are no "multiple layers" in the PDF in this sense of the term.
> > There
> > > is simply... content and tags.
> > > Content is text, graphics, form fields, annotations, etc.
> > > Tags are semantic structures (H2, P, Table, etc). These are applied to
> > > content and are used to describe "info and relationships' as per WCAG
> SC
> > > 1.3.1. Tags are the only means of providing these structures in PDF.
> > > Otherwise I fully agree with you, and am very encouraged to hear that
> you
> > > are working to convince other software developers to improve their
> > support
> > > for Tagged PDF.
> > >
> > > Duff.
> > >
> > > > On May 28, 2020, at 07:53, L Snider < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi Duff,
> > > >
> > > > Unfortunately I know all about these layers, but there is still no
> > > reason.
> > > > There is no reason to have multiple layers, what you see should be
> what
> > > you
> > > > get...whether you print, tag or whatever...This is partially why, in
> my
> > > > personal opinion, PDFs are still inaccessible. 90% of the ones I have
> > > seen
> > > > since 2000 are a problem in some way, and most in major ways. Plus
> tags
> > > are
> > > > just one aspect of PDFs, people will all sorts of disabilities use
> PDFs
> > > as
> > > > you know well.
> > > >
> > > > I gave up on Adobe, they moved forward for a long, long time and the
> > last
> > > > 10 years they moved backward. Not in InDesign, InDesign is amazing
> and
> > > > kudos to whoever worked on the accessibility aspect of it, now if
> they
> > > > could move back those people to PDF we might get back to where PDF
> > > > was...Microsoft has been kicking butt in terms of accessibility the
> > last
> > > 5
> > > > years, so maybe one day Adobe will follow suit.
> > > >
> > > > I am now trying to find other PDF creation programs and convince them
> > to
> > > do
> > > > better, may have a shot!
> > > >
> > > > Cheers
> > > >
> > > > Lisa
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 7:48 PM Duff Johnson < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Hi Lisa,
> > > >>
> > > >> Content order and logical reading order are "separate" in PDF
> because
> > > the
> > > >> technology is obliged to represent content for different purposes.
> > > >> Rendering (e.g., printing) is a different purpose than
> accessibility,
> > > for
> > > >> example, and often requires ordering of content for processing
> > purposes
> > > >> that differs from logical reading order. PDF was originally designed
> > for
> > > >> maximum fidelity in print. Accessibility considerations were only
> > > addressed
> > > >> in 2000 with the addition of the Tagged PDF feature to the format.
> > > >>
> > > >> In 2020 the difficulty is not in the format but in the software.
> > > >> Unfortunately it remains the case that...
> > > >> PDF viewer developers don't do a great job of supporting tagged PDF
> in
> > > >> many cases. This is simply a business decision.
> > > >> Users continue to use software that doesn't understand tagged PDF
> > > instead
> > > >> of seeking out and demanding better.
> > > >> Authors continue to author content without consideration for
> semantics
> > > >> (e.g., use tab stops instead of table structures, etc.)
> > > >> I'll beat my usual drum once again: if you want better PDF support,
> > > >> complain to those who make your software. Demand better support for
> > > Tagged
> > > >> PDF. In 2020 there's simply no excuse.
> > > >>
> > > >> Duff.
> > > >>
> > > >>> On May 27, 2020, at 18:30, Paul Rayius < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> > wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>> As per ISO 32000, one of the intents of PDF is that the "accessible
> > > >> layer" and the visual layer are independent of each other.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Paul Rayius
> > > >>> Director of Training
> > > >>> CommonLook
> > > >>>
> > > >>> -----Original Message-----
> > > >>> From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> > On
> Behalf
> > Of
> > > >> Ilana Gordon
> > > >>> Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2020 5:19 PM
> > > >>> To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> > > >>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Z-Order and Tag Order Need to Match?
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Agree so completely!
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Ilana
> > > >>>
> > > >>> On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 5:11 PM L Snider < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> What I have been wondering since Acrobat came out with the Z-Order
> > and
> > > >>>> Tags in the dark ages, why the heck are they still separate in
> 2020?
> > > >>>> Can someone enlighten me on why PDFs have to have so many layers,
> > and
> > > >>>> why they can't be converted to one layer...so we just remediate
> one
> > > >>>> layer? I am getting increasingly frustrated with tech from the
> > > 2000s...
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Cheers
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Lisa
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 3:36 PM Paul Rayius <
> <EMAIL REMOVED>
> > >
> > > >>>> wrote:
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>> Hi Ilana,
> > > >>>>> There's often a lot of question/ debate about this. When it
> comes
> > > >>>>> to PDF standards (both ISO 32000 and PDF/UA, as well as WCAG 2.0
> > and
> > > >>>>> 2.1)
> > > >>>> they're
> > > >>>>> all quite clear that the reading order in a PDF shall be
> determined
> > > >>>>> by
> > > >>>> the
> > > >>>>> order of the tags. (To be more clear, WCAG doesn't specify the
> > > >>>>> reading order "rules" for PDF but does provide some guidance in
> the
> > > >>>>> WCAG
> > > >>>>> Techniques.)
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> The confusion comes into play because some assistive technologies
> > > >>>>> don't actually follow the standards and so they'll read content
> > from
> > > >>>>> "other areas" in a PDF - for example from the Content and or
> > > >>>>> "Z-Order" pane in Acrobat. (The "Z-Order" pane is the one labeled
> > > >>>>> "Order" but many people call it the "Z-Order" because of the "Z"
> in
> > > >>>>> the icon.)
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> The problem, however, is that as accessible document creators
> > and/or
> > > >>>>> remediators, we can't possibly be called on to remediate
> according
> > > >>>>> to
> > > >>>> how a
> > > >>>>> particular processor or AT will handle a PDF. In fact, to that
> > > >>>>> point,
> > > >>>> one
> > > >>>>> of the great things about WCAG is that it's intended for
> > > >>>>> accessibility while being technology independent. Personally, I
> > > >>>>> think it's time for
> > > >>>> PDF
> > > >>>>> processors and AT developers to be held accountable and that
> their
> > > >>>> products
> > > >>>>> should adhere to the standards that are not only available but
> also
> > > >>>>> achievable. But, that's my soapbox.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> I hope this helps to clarify, though, that the reading order in a
> > > >>>>> PDF is to be determined by the order of the Tags and not the
> > > "Z-Order."
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Best,
> > > >>>>> Paul
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Paul Rayius
> > > >>>>> Director of Training
> > > >>>>> CommonLook
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> > > >>>>> From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> > On
> > Behalf
> > > >>>>> Of Ilana Gordon
> > > >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2020 12:56 PM
> > > >>>>> To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> > > >>>>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Z-Order and Tag Order Need to Match?
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> I wish they had a checklist. They are a moving target and keep
> > > >>>>> asking for things that seem over the top and in additional to the
> > HHS
> > > >> checklist.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Ilana
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 12:46 PM Ryan E. Benson
> > > >>>>> < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> > > >>>>> wrote:
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Are you talking to the agency 508 Coordinator directly, or
> > > >>>>>> somebody
> > > >>>> else?
> > > >>>>>> Does the agency have a checklist?
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> --
> > > >>>>>> Ryan E. Benson
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 12:23 PM Ilana Gordon
> > > >>>>>> < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> > > >>>>>> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> I should clarify that this is specifically for PDFs. And some
> > > >>>>>>> government employee says it's a requirements.
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> Ilana
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 12:17 PM Steve Green <
> > > >>>>>>> <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> > > >>>>>>> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> Who is saying it's absolutely necessary? I can see how it
> > > >>>>>>>> might cause accessibility issues when the layout of pages
> > > >>>>>>>> change as they are
> > > >>>>>> zoomed,
> > > >>>>>>>> but it's by no means inevitable.
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> That said, I tend to regard the presence of "z-index"
> > > >>>>>>>> attributes as a warning that there might be other nastiness
> > > >>>>>>>> because it suggests the
> > > >>>>>>> design
> > > >>>>>>>> is fundamentally flawed. It's the same as when you see
> > > >>>>>>>> positive
> > > >>>>>>> "tabindex"
> > > >>>>>>>> attributes.
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> Steve Green
> > > >>>>>>>> Managing Director
> > > >>>>>>>> Test Partners Ltd
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> > > >>>>>>>> From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> > On
> > > >>>>>>>> Behalf Of Ilana Gordon
> > > >>>>>>>> Sent: 27 May 2020 16:58
> > > >>>>>>>> To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> > > >>>>>>>> Subject: [WebAIM] Z-Order and Tag Order Need to Match?
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> Can the group weigh in on the latest techniques and efficacy
> > > >>>>>>>> regarding Z-Order and Tag Order having to match and why this
> > > >>>>>>>> would be absolutely necessary for Accessibility?
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> I'm having many discussions with government 508 officers going
> > > >>>>>>>> around
> > > >>>>>> in
> > > >>>>>>>> circles regarding this issue.
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> Any info is appreciated.
> > > >>>>>>>> Ilana
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> --
> > > >>>>>>>> Ilana Gordon
> > > >>>>>>>> CEO
> > > >>>>>>>> Word Wizards, Inc
> > > >>>>>>>> 8609 2nd Avenue, Unit 406-B
> > > >>>>>>>> Silver Spring, MD 20910
> > > >>>>>>>> *v.*301-986-0808 *fax.*301-986-0809
> > > >>>>>>>> *Direct: 240-380-2639*
> > > >>>>>>>> www.wordwizardsinc.com
> > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> List
> > > >>>>>> archives
> > > >>>>>>>> at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> --
> > > >>>>>>> Ilana Gordon
> > > >>>>>>> CEO
> > > >>>>>>> Word Wizards, Inc
> > > >>>>>>> 8609 2nd Avenue, Unit 406-B
> > > >>>>>>> Silver Spring, MD 20910
> > > >>>>>>> *v.*301-986-0808 *fax.*301-986-0809
> > > >>>>>>> *Direct: 240-380-2639*
> > > >>>>>>> www.wordwizardsinc.com
> > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> > List
> > > >>>>>>> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> --
> > > >>>>> Ilana Gordon
> > > >>>>> CEO
> > > >>>>> Word Wizards, Inc
> > > >>>>> 8609 2nd Avenue, Unit 406-B
> > > >>>>> Silver Spring, MD 20910
> > > >>>>> *v.*301-986-0808 *fax.*301-986-0809
> > > >>>>> *Direct: 240-380-2639*
> > > >>>>> www.wordwizardsinc.com
> > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > >>>>> > > > >>>>>
> > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > >>>> > > > >>>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> --
> > > >>> Ilana Gordon
> > > >>> CEO
> > > >>> Word Wizards, Inc
> > > >>> 8609 2nd Avenue, Unit 406-B
> > > >>> Silver Spring, MD 20910
> > > >>> *v.*301-986-0808 *fax.*301-986-0809
> > > >>> *Direct: 240-380-2639*
> > > >>> www.wordwizardsinc.com
> > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>
> > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Ilana Gordon
> > CEO
> > Word Wizards, Inc
> > 8609 2nd Avenue, Unit 406-B
> > Silver Spring, MD 20910
> > *v.*301-986-0808 *fax.*301-986-0809
> > *Direct: 240-380-2639*
> > www.wordwizardsinc.com
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > >