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Re: achieving PDF/UA compliance

for

From: Laura Roberts
Date: Mar 30, 2023 7:06AM

This thread reminds me of a recent encounter with another accessibility
specialist who is clearly experienced in WCAG and websites, but not so much
in PDF/UA documents. He has created a word template that he claims will
never need remediation after PDF conversion. Will it need less remediation?
Yes. Will it need none? Nope.

On Wed, Mar 29, 2023, 7:43 PM Steve Green < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
wrote:

> I am simply talking about probability, because there is no certainty in
> what we do.
>
> A PDF that doesn't pass an automated PDF/UA check might be perfectly
> accessible, but probably isn't.
>
> A PDF that passes an automated PDF/UA check is probably more accessible
> than one that doesn't, but it might not be.
>
> A PDF that passes an automated PDF/UA check and a manual WCAG check and
> assistive technology testing is probably highly accessible, but it might
> not be to some people. Ideally, every PDF would be tested and remediated to
> this level, but it's not affordable and there aren't enough people with the
> skills to do it. It's inevitable that many documents will be tested and
> remediated to a lower level, but that's better than not doing anything at
> all.
>
> Steve
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> > On Behalf Of
> <EMAIL REMOVED>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2023 10:34 PM
> To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] achieving PDF/UA compliance
>
> Apologies, Steve.
> Your last comment helps clear up what you originally wrote /quote if a PDF
> passes an automated PDF/UA check, it's usually a good sign because you
> can't pass it by accident. /endquote.
>
> What do you mean by "an automated PDF/UA check?
> — It passed Acrobat's built in PDF checker?
> — It passed a 3rd party checker, like PAC or Commonlook?
> — It passed a manual check and testing with assistive technologies?
> (although I wouldn't consider this an automated check!)
>
> Acrobat's automated checker will pass a document with just P tags, or with
> a scan for the entire page and tagged as Figure with Alt Text that says
> "graphic of text." Acrobat's checker does indeed pass these failed PDFs by
> accident.
>
> Even better checkers like PAC and CommonLook don't find mis-tagged
> content, poor reading orders, or a stack of figures at the bottom of the
> tag tree of a 350 page book.
>
> But if you mean the whole enchilada of checking PDFs (automated + Human),
> then yes, I too assume that the file is probably fairly accessible to most
> people and their technologies.
>
> — — —
> Bevi Chagnon | Designer, Accessibility Technician | <EMAIL REMOVED>
> — — —
> PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing consulting •
> training • development • design • sec. 508 services Upcoming classes at
> www.PubCom.com/classes — — — Latest blog-newsletter – Simple Guide to
> Writing Alt-Text
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steve Green < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2023 11:27 AM
> To: <EMAIL REMOVED> ; WebAIM Discussion List <
> <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> Subject: RE: [WebAIM] achieving PDF/UA compliance
>
> I didn't say that. I said a PDF/UA conformant document is more likely to
> be accessible than most others. But that won't always be the case, just as
> WCAG conformance usually means a website is reasonably accessible, but it
> doesn't guarantee it.
>
> Did your document actually pass a PDF/UA test or did it just have the
> identifier and logo? Obviously my comments were based on documents actually
> passing.
>
> Steve
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> > On Behalf Of
> <EMAIL REMOVED>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2023 2:29 PM
> To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] achieving PDF/UA compliance
>
> I'm not sure passing a PDF/UA check is always a good sign of sufficient
> accessibility.
>
> Just had a PDF from a client that consisted of only P tags, and several
> tables and sidebar boxes weren't even tagged at all.
> But it did pass the Acrobat checker, and even had the PDF/UA
> identifier/medallion on it.
>
> Bevi
> — — —
> Bevi Chagnon | Designer, Accessibility Technician | <EMAIL REMOVED>
> — — —
> PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing consulting •
> training • development • design • sec. 508 services Upcoming classes at
> www.PubCom.com/classes — — — Latest blog-newsletter – Simple Guide to
> Writing Alt-Text
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> > On Behalf Of
> Steve Green
> Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2023 2:17 PM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] achieving PDF/UA compliance
>
> As a rule I don't believe any accessibility conformance statement I didn't
> write myself, although I would trust them from some of the people in this
> forum. Very few stand up to any scrutiny. That said, if a PDF passes an
> automated PDF/UA check, it's usually a good sign because you can't pass it
> by accident. It requires a lot of good design and/or remediation, so
> whoever did it probably know what they were doing.
>
> PDF/UA conformance doesn't mean that the document is accessible, but the
> likelihood is it's far more accessible than most.
>
> Steve
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> > On Behalf Of
> Karen McCall
> Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2023 6:41 PM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] achieving PDF/UA compliance
>
> I agree. It is a voluntary sticker that someone can apply to a PDF. I
> really don't like applications that simply add it in with an accessibility
> check. I then have to figure out how to remove it while remediating the
> PDF. I perform accessibility checks often during remediation so don't want
> the identifier attached until or unless I want to add it.
>
> I don't add it to my PDFs.
>
> Cheers, Karen
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> > On Behalf Of
> Jon Brundage via WebAIM-Forum
> Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2023 1:34 PM
> To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> Cc: <EMAIL REMOVED>
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] achieving PDF/UA compliance
>
> Hi Steve-
>
> Do you find the declaration of "UA" a bit like VPATs? I am dubious of the
> claims when someone says "this is UA so it is accessible. "UA" (like VPATs)
> is more of an honor system in my opinion. I could construct a PDF that is
> inaccessible and still get it to take the "UA" declaration.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Jon
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> > On Behalf Of
> Steve Green
> Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2023 12:33 PM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] achieving PDF/UA compliance
>
> I find that the Preflight tool only helps to fix a few of the PDF/UA
> issues we encounter. We fix most of the issues in other ways, mostly in
> the Tags panel. It's also worth noting that the Commonlook PDF Validator
> tests for PDF/UA conformance more thoroughly than PAC2021. And there are
> some tests you have to do manually.
>
> If it's any consolation, I am fully sighted but find the Preflight dialog
> difficult to understand. I don't think it has changed in the 18 years I
> have been doing PDF remediation and it could seriously do with a redesign.
>
> Steve Green
> Managing Director
> Test Partners Ltd
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> > On Behalf Of
> Garmer, Shawn via WebAIM-Forum
> Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2023 3:55 PM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> Cc: Garmer, Shawn < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] achieving PDF/UA compliance
>
> If you are using the PAC 2021 checker, you may find taggedpdf.com helpful
> in deciphering the results and applying a fix using Acrobat Pro.
> Full URL is
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftagged.pdf.com%2F&data%7C01%7C%7C00ddc496498d4933f20308db2fb29daa%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638156216420475365%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=XpRnRAJeEfozlO4SdKYdJqYprZ54kNf3EotrBKXf1RE%3D&reserved=0
>
> Embrace the journey.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> > On Behalf Of
> David Farough
> Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2023 10:40 AM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> Subject: [WebAIM] achieving PDF/UA compliance
>
> CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not
> click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know
> the content is safe.
>
>
> I am working on a document which has passed the acrobat Accessibility
> checker.
> I am as the subject indicates trying to pass the PDF/UA standard.
> I am trying to use the pre flight tool to fix any remaining issues.
> I am using Jaws and these dialogues are extremely difficult to use and
> understand.
> Does anyone have any tips or suggestions to make this easier?
> I am not sure about the best profile to use or what aspects of this
> process to concentrate on.
> The PAC 2021 accessibility checker indicates that I have some content
> and structure issues to deal with and a font issue as well.
> Any advice is appreciated.
> Thanks
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