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Re: WebAIM Discussion List Digest 22.07.2004.

for

From: Henny.Swan@rnib.org.uk
Date: Jul 22, 2004 9:54AM









<FONT color=#0000ff
size=2>Hi,
<FONT color=#0000ff
size=2>
I work in the Web
Accessibility Team at RNIB and I'm afraid we don't have any stats either. It is
a question we do get asked all the time but we don't have the resource to carry
out a piece of research on this scale which is a shame. I'd be really interested
to hear about anything you find out about though.
<FONT color=#0000ff
size=2>
Sorry I can't be
of much help.
<FONT color=#0000ff
size=2>
Regards,
Henny
<FONT color=#0000ff
size=2>
---
Henny SwanWebsite
Accessibility ConsultantT: 020 7391 2044E:
<EMAIL REMOVED> t our Web access centre for an up to date
guide to planning, building and testing accessible websites <A
href="http://www.rnib.org.uk/webaccesscentre"
target=_blank>http://www.rnib.org.uk/webaccesscentreTo receive
regular updates email us at <EMAIL REMOVED> with "Subscribe" in the
subject line.
<FONT color=#0000ff
size=2>
<FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----From: paul.creedy
[mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ]Sent: 22 July 2004
16:46To: WebAIM Discussion ListSubject: Re: [WebAIM]
WebAIM Discussion List Digest 22.07.2004.
I don't know about US or worldwide figures, but in the UK the RNIB at <A
href="http://www.rnib.org.uk">www.rnib.org.uk may be able to help you with
stats.

Paul <EMAIL REMOVED> wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">WebAIM
Discussion List Digest
22.07.2004.------------------------------------------------------------------------From:
<EMAIL REMOVED> ject: total number of screen readersDate: Wed, 21 Jul
2004 14:41:46 -0600Hey. I am currently doing research for my company
for an article about web accessibility. I need a ballpark figure of how
many people (US or worldwide) use screen reader software. I tried asking
GW Micro for their sales figures, but they wouldn't tell me. i have also
asked the makers of JAWS, but that figure would not be very accurate,
since there are so many other screen readers out there. Does anybody know
where I could find an estimate of the total number of people who use
screen
readers?Gary------------------------------------------------------------------------From:
<EMAIL REMOVED> ject: Re! : Flash intoDate: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 14:59:04
-0600I would suggest having your index page be something that has 2
links: "flash" and "non-flash", then they click either link they
want.------------------------------------------------------------------------From:
<EMAIL REMOVED> ject: Site Map, Bobby, and WCAG 13.1Date: Wed,
21 Jul 2004 16:00:40 -0600I have an
interesting delima. I am working on a new web site for our
organization and am including a site map. My problem is this:
Within major sections of the site which provide resources relating to
different programs that we sponsor I have subnavigation menus that are
very similar. A program may include training so there is a link to
training for example. This does not pose a problem for the pages
within the section. However when those links are listed within the
site map there is an issue - several links t! hat say
"training." Bobby correctly flagged this problem as a
violation of WCAG 13.1. A visitor using a screen reader who
visits the site map then uses the link list feature of their browser will
be confused by the duplicate named links. However, to add the
program name to all of the links relating to that program would likely be
very annoying as well. Any suggestions from this
group? Thanks, Mike
Moore------------------------------------------------------------------------From:
<EMAIL REMOVED> ject: Re: Site Map, Bobby, and WCAG 13.1Date:
Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:14:42 -0600I tend to do this
with the "training" link being visible and the program name wrapped in a
<;span class="hidden">;<;/span>;. Unfortunately Jaws honors
display:none so that doesn't
work.hidden{width:1px;position:absolute;left:0;top:-100px;height:1px;overflow:hidden;} <;a
href="">;Training <;span class="hidden">;for
Program<;/span>;<;/a>; Sandra
ClarkFrom: mmoore [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] Sent:
Wednesday, July 21, 2004 6:00 PMTo: WebAIM Discussion ListSubject:
[WebAIM] Site Map, Bobby, and WCAG 13.1I have an interesting
delima. I am working on a new web site for our organization and am
including a site map. My problem is this: Within major
sections of the site which provide resources relating to different
programs that we sponsor I have subnavigation menus that are very
similar. A program may include training so there is a link to
training for example. This does not pose a problem for the pages
within the section. However when those links are listed within the
site map there is an i! ssue - several links that say
"training." Bobby correctly flagged this problem as a
violation of WCAG 13.1. A visitor using a screen reader who
visits the site map then uses the link list feature of their browser will
be confused by the duplicate named links. However, to add the
program name to all of the links relating to that program would likely be
very annoying as well. Any suggestions from this
group? Thanks, Mike
Moore------------------------------------------------------------------------From:
<EMAIL REMOVED> ject: Re: Site Map, Bobby, and WCAG 13.1Date:
Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:31:58 -0600check out the new article on the Webaim
website:An Accessible Method of Hiding HTML Content-----Original
Message-----From: "sllists" To: "WebAIM Discussion
List" Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 1! 8:12:31
-0400Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Site Map, Bobby, and WCAG 13.1I tend to
do this with the "training" link being visible and the programname wrapped
in a . Unfortunately Jaws honorsdisplay:none so
that doesn't
work..hidden{width:1px;position:absolute;left:0;top:-100px;height:1px;overflow:hidden;}<A
href="">Training for ProgramSandra
Clark_____ From: mmoore [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ]
Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 6:00 PMTo: WebAIM Discussion
ListSubject: [WebAIM] Site Map, Bobby, and WCAG 13.1I have an
interesting delima. I am working on a new web site for ourorganization and
am including a site map. My problem is this: Within majorsections of the
site which provide resources relating to different programsthat we sponsor
I have subnavigation menus that are very similar. A programmay include
train! ing so there is a link to training for example. This doesnot pose a
problem for the pages within the section. However when thoselinks are
listed within the site map there is an issue - several links thatsay
"training."Bobby correctly flagged this problem as a violation of WCAG
13.1.A visitor using a screen reader who visits the site map then uses
the linklist feature of their browser will be confused by the duplicate
named links..However, to add the program name to all of the links relating
to thatprogram would likely be very annoying as well.Any
suggestions from this group?Thanks,Mike MooreShane
AndersonProgrammer AnalystWeb Accessibility in Mind
(WebAIM.org)------------------------------------------------------------------------From:
<EMAIL REMOVED> ject: Re: Site Map, Bobby, and WCAG 13.1Date:
Wed, 21 Jul 2004 17:24:57 -0600I have read the article that you men!
tioned but I am still concerned aboutthe annoyance factor of adding the
program name to the links - each sectionwould need to have seven or eight
links with the hidden program name. Thescreen reader would read "program
training" "program schedule" "programparticipants" etc. Then again maybe I
am just being overly cautious.Mike-----Original
Message-----From: Shane [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] Sent: Wednesday,
July 21, 2004 5:32 PMTo: WebAIM Discussion ListSubject: Re: [WebAIM]
Site Map, Bobby, and WCAG 13.1check out the new article on the
Webaim website:An Accessible Method of Hiding HTML
Content-----Original Message-----From: "sllists"
To: "WebAIM Discussion List"
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 18:12:31
-0400Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Site Map, Bobby, and WCAG 13.1I tend to
do this with the "training" link being visible and the programname
wrapped! in a . Unfortunately Jaws
honorsdisplay:none so that doesn't work .hidden{ width:1px;
position:absolute;left:0; top:-100px; height:1px; overflow:hidden;
}Training for
ProgramSandra Clark_____ From: mmoore
[mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ]Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 6:00
PMTo: WebAIM Discussion ListSubject: [WebAIM] Site Map, Bobby, and
WCAG 13.1I have an interesting delima. I am working on a new web
site for ourorganization and am including a site map. My problem is this:
Within majorsections of the site which provide resources relating to
different programsthat we sponsor I have subnavigation menus that are very
similar. A programmay include training so there is a link to training for
example. This doesnot pose a problem for the pages within the section.
However when thoselinks are listed within the site map there is an i! ssue
- several links thatsay "training."Bobby correctly flagged this
problem as a violation of WCAG 13.1.A visitor using a screen reader
who visits the site map then uses the linklist feature of their browser
will be confused by the duplicate named links.However, to add the program
name to all of the links relating to thatprogram would likely be very
annoying as well.Any suggestions from this
group?Thanks,Mike MooreShane
AndersonProgrammer AnalystWeb Accessibility in Mind
(WebAIM.org)----To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit
http://www.webaim.org/discussion/------------------------------------------------------------------------From:
<EMAIL REMOVED> ject: Re: total number of screen readersDate:
Wed, 21 Jul 2004 17:40:44 -0600Well, why not check with your local
society for the blind? In Canada, itsthe CNIB (Canadian National Institute
for the Blind) and ever! y country islikely to have something similar.
They may not have global figures but theywould probably have national
stats. They would know the total number ofvisually impaired as well as the
number who are currently online. Nationalstatistics bodies will probably
also have that information, although itwould probably be much more
difficult to track down.>; From: "garymm" >;
Reply-To: "WebAIM Discussion List" >;
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 13:41:07 -0700>; To: "WebAIM Discussion List"
>; Subject: [WebAIM] total number of
screen readers>; >; >; Hey. I am currently doing research
for my company for an article about>; web accessibility. I need a
ballpark figure of how many people (US or>; worldwide) use screen reader
software. I tried asking GW Micro for>; their sales figures, but they
wouldn't tell me. i have also asked the&amp;amp;g! t; makers of JAWS, but that
figure would not be very accurate, since there>; are so many other
screen readers out there. Does anybody know where I>; could find an
estimate of the total number of people who use screen>; readers?>;
>; Gary>; >; ---->; To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit
http://www.webaim.org/discussion/>;;
>;------------------------------------------------------------------------From:
<EMAIL REMOVED> ject: Skip links (in-page links) and the
keyboardDate: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 21:56:17 -0600I just updated a
study of the problems and possibilities of skip links
athttp://jimthatcher.com/skipnav.htm. The important news is at the very
bottomof that page. There is a pretty simple technique to be sure that
yourin-page links work from the keyboard. Just do it like
this:<A id=main
name=main>This technique is less of a hack than ! placing
the anchor in a table - atechnique used at http://WebAIM.org. The two
techniques have a commonaspect. Both place the anchor in some construct
with width. That seems to bethe thing that undoes/fixes the IE6
bug.JimAccessibility, What Not to do:
http://jimthatcher.com/whatnot.htm.Web Accessibility Tutorial:
http://jimthatcher.com/webcourse1.htm.------------------------------------------------------------------------From:
<EMAIL REMOVED> ect: Re: Site Map, Bobby, and WCAG
13.1Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 07:34:26
-0600Don't take this personally but I
hate excessive markup for the purpose of applying style such as a series
of nested divs whose role is only to apply different backgrounds to the
same content. For example, the Onion Skinning technique recently discussed
at AListApart.com (http://www.alistapart.com/articles/onionskin/) and this
code below smacks of! the same thing. It is a maintenance nightmare and
difficult for others who work with you or after you to
maintain. Why not simply use the Title attribute to add more
information? Jules-----------------------------------------------
Julian Rickards A/Digitial Publications Distribution Coordinator
Publication Services Section, Ministry of Northern Development and
Mines, Vox: 705-670-5608 / Fax: 705-670-5960 -----Original
Message-----From: sllists [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ]Sent: Wednesday, July
21, 2004 6:13 PMTo: WebAIM Discussion ListSubject: Re: [WebAIM] Site
Map, Bobby, and WCAG 13.1I tend to do this with the "training" link
being visible and the program name wrapped in a <;span
class="hidden">;<;/span>;. Unfortunately Jaws honors
display:none so that doesn't
work.hidden{width:1px;position:absolute;left:0;top:-100px;height:1px;overflow:hidden;} <;a
href="">;Training <;span class="hidden">;for
Program<;/span>;<;/a>;------------------------------------------------------------------------From:
<EMAIL REMOVED> ject: Re: Site Map, Bobby, and WCAG 13.1Date:
Thu, 22 Jul 2004 07:49:39 -0600Not taken
personally :) My experience with the title attribute is that
a) I don't feel that the use of titles meet the WCAG guideline 13.1
of "link text must be meaningful enough to make sense when read out
of context". b) not every screen reader is configured to read titles
out of the box (or many of them can be reconfigured to either read or
not read titles) so I can't be sure that it would even be read.
I don't think the maintenance of it is that difficult,
mainly because most of what I would use it for is dynamically programmed
anyways. Its a technique, I've found effective, but i! f someone comes
up with a better way that will meet standards and work, then I'd love to
hear it. Sandy ClarkFrom: julian.rickards
[mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004
9:33 AMTo: WebAIM Discussion ListSubject: Re: [WebAIM] Site Map,
Bobby, and WCAG 13.1Don't take this personally but I hate
excessive markup for the purpose of applying style such as a series of
nested divs whose role is only to apply different backgrounds to the same
content. For example, the Onion Skinning technique recently discussed at
AListApart.com (http://www.alistapart.com/articles/onionskin/) and this
code below smacks of the same thing. It is a maintenance nightmare and
difficult for others who work with you or after you to
maintain. Why not simply use the Title attribute to add more
information? Jules-----------------------------------------------
Julian Rickards A/Di! gitial Publications Distribution Coordinator
Publication Services Section, Ministry of Northern Development and
Mines, Vox: 705-670-5608 / Fax: 705-670-5960 -----Original
Message-----From: sllists [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ]Sent: Wednesday, July
21, 2004 6:13 PMTo: WebAIM Discussion ListSubject: Re: [WebAIM] Site
Map, Bobby, and WCAG 13.1I tend to do this with the "training" link
being visible and the program name wrapped in a <;span
class="hidden">;<;/span>;. Unfortunately Jaws honors
display:none so that doesn't
work.hidden{width:1px;position:absolute;left:0;top:-100px;height:1px;overflow:hidden;} <;a
href="">;Training <;span class="hidden">;for
Program<;/span>;<;/a>;


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